TSS
Comments
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I was asking legitimate questions in an attempt to work out how TSS score works. My individual power and how it compares to others in various contexts is irrelevant, it's just the concepts i'm interested in learning about. I just wanted to know if I understood it correctly. (even though i'm using, probably wrong, theoretical numbers for illustration).0
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Bhima wrote:I wish people would stop saying that. It's not very helpful. It's been repeated for months and months but it's obvious that there are no races until March. It's not like I have a choice; I CAN'T enter any races!
Anyway, how would entering a race help me understand power levels more? :?
Getting my BC licence sorted this week, so i'll be entering some races very soon....
I'm not getting down on you, but you're doing the whole 'square peg, round hole' thing.
You're trying to estimate power numbers where none can be estimated. I'm no Powermeter snob, but it's just way too difficult to guess numbers based on speed - even on rollers.
If you're not going to race. power numbers don't really mean anything.
And you certainly don't need power numbers to race - you just have to go out there and try and hang on for dear life.
But for the love of God - join a club and do some chaingangs and improve your group riding skills before you try and race. Your road presence was shocking last time!0 -
Wow, leave the guy alone.
Every time I see his posts I have the same thoughts but you know perhaps he doesn't want to race and he's just here for the journey, nothing wrong with that. I certainly find the numbers aspect to it fascinating and it's good to learn.
You know if the circle's big enough then the square peg will fit easily.
So Bhima i'll have a stab for you. so random thoughts on your roller experiment.
1) I think rollers will be a very good proxy for power over a hour period. I've got a cheap turbo and the power and speed match up perfectly (which I was :shock: . The only thing I can think off with rollers, you've got to get the tyre pressue the same all the time and I don't know how accurate yours or any tyre gauge is.
2) I would very much doubt that your figures here are correct. Again fans of your threads will be :shock: at this as well.
'...I know the maximum average speed I can maintain for an hour on my rollers and I use this as a proxy for FTP. Yesterday, after a warmup, I did exactly 1 hour at 96.5% of this, followed by exactly 58 minutes at 98.4%. Today I did 1 hour at 99.2% and another 20 minutes at 102.5%...'.
A score of 0.97 for two hours is probably too high especially done under non race conditions (not impossible though.)
To go 20 mins>1 after a one hour at ftp I would say is pretty unlikey.
All this sugets that your ftp 'speed' is underestimated. Re do the test and try harder!
Do you have a hr monitor that you can download from it, because sporttracks has a good proxy for all this but using hr.0 -
Bhima wrote:I was asking legitimate questions in an attempt to work out how TSS score works. My individual power and how it compares to others in various contexts is irrelevant, it's just the concepts i'm interested in learning about. I just wanted to know if I understood it correctly. (even though i'm using, probably wrong, theoretical numbers for illustration).
http://www.cyclingforums.com/power-trai ... ation.html0 -
Forgive me but what is TSS ?0
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Crikey! Just re-read this. :shock: I was asking some pretty silly questions now that I look back. Posting after a hard mind-bending roller session is not a good idea, it seems.
I guess it's because i'm just desperate to quantify what i'm doing on my rollers with some kind of numbers until I get my PM (~1 month). All this talk of new numbers/measures of intensity/stress/etc has just got me thinking about how it applies to what I do currently, that's all... The more I learn about this stuff, the quicker I can impliment it when I do actually get the thing. I've got Mr Coggan's book in the post. I'm sure it'll explain everything I need to know...0 -
Bhima wrote:Crikey! Just re-read this. :shock: I was asking some pretty silly questions now that I look back. Posting after a hard mind-bending roller session is not a good idea, it seems.
I guess it's because i'm just desperate to quantify what i'm doing on my rollers with some kind of numbers until I get my PM (~1 month). All this talk of new numbers/measures of intensity/stress/etc has just got me thinking about how it applies to what I do currently, that's all... The more I learn about this stuff, the quicker I can impliment it when I do actually get the thing. I've got Mr Coggan's book in the post. I'm sure it'll explain everything I need to know...
Seriously, there's no such thing as a stupid question (although you do come close sometimes.
)
I think yours were fair ones and it does seem that you have some understanding there.
One more but of advice start saving for wko as this will do all your calculations for you (not your strong point. ) 0 -
It's impossible to know what the power v speed relationship of your rollers is without access to power data - you can only guess that a 3.5% drop in speed equates to the same drop in power.Bhima wrote:the power/speed relationship of my rollers is pretty good as long as I keep on top of tyre pressures...
If you want to try and estimate TSS scores for your rides, then you'd probably be more accurate in using the rough Intensity Factor for the workout:
•Less than 0.75 recovery rides
•0.75-0.85 endurance-paced training rides
•0.85-0.95 tempo rides, aerobic and anaerobic interval workouts (work and rest periods combined), longer (>2.5 h) road races
•0.95-1.05 lactate threshold intervals (work period only), shorter (<2.5 h) road races, criteriums, circuit races, longer (e.g., 40 km) TTs
•1.05-1.15 shorter (e.g., 15 km) TTs
TSS = IF x IF x 100
So a solid endurance ride [IF=0.8] scores 64TSS per hour. That's about as far as you can go without any power data.0 -
Bhima wrote:Crikey! Just re-read this. :shock: I was asking some pretty silly questions now that I look back. Posting after a hard mind-bending roller session is not a good idea, it seems.
I guess it's because i'm just desperate to quantify what i'm doing on my rollers with some kind of numbers until I get my PM (~1 month). All this talk of new numbers/measures of intensity/stress/etc has just got me thinking about how it applies to what I do currently, that's all... The more I learn about this stuff, the quicker I can impliment it when I do actually get the thing. I've got Mr Coggan's book in the post. I'm sure it'll explain everything I need to know...
Dr Coogan Ph.d.
Just so you kick youself. The new edition is out in a couple of months 0 -
Bronzie wrote:
It's impossible to know what the power v speed relationship of your rollers is without access to power data - you can only guess that a 3.5% drop in speed equates to the same drop in power.Bhima wrote:the power/speed relationship of my rollers is pretty good as long as I keep on top of tyre pressures...
If you want to try and estimate TSS scores for your rides, then you'd probably be more accurate in using the rough Intensity Factor for the workout:
•Less than 0.75 recovery rides
•0.75-0.85 endurance-paced training rides
•0.85-0.95 tempo rides, aerobic and anaerobic interval workouts (work and rest periods combined), longer (>2.5 h) road races
•0.95-1.05 lactate threshold intervals (work period only), shorter (<2.5 h) road races, criteriums, circuit races, longer (e.g., 40 km) TTs
•1.05-1.15 shorter (e.g., 15 km) TTs
TSS = IF x IF x 100
So a solid endurance ride [IF=0.8] scores 64TSS per hour. That's about as far as you can go without any power data.
I thought power & speed weren't linear.0 -
chrisw12 wrote:perhaps he doesn't want to race and he's just here for the journey, nothing wrong with that.
Well, I do want to race, but I also do understand that power can be an almost irrelevant predictor of performance when doing them. The main reason I want to learn all about this is so I can look at how I train currently and see how I can improve what i'm doing.chrisw12 wrote:I've got a cheap turbo and the power and speed match up perfectly (which I was :shock: . The only thing I can think off with rollers, you've got to get the tyre pressue the same all the time and I don't know how accurate yours or any tyre gauge is.
My pressure is always 80 PSI. I'll pump it to 90 and, as my pump is dodgy, air leaks out very very slowly at about 1 PSI/sec so i'll wait until it hits 80 before swiftly pulling it off the valve. The lack of heat on the rollers/tyre and no percieved loss of pressure over a few hours leads me to believe that the power/speed relationship is very stable. Of course, there's no way of knowing without a PM but it feels pretty much the same...chrisw12 wrote:All this sugets that your ftp 'speed' is underestimated. Re do the test and try harder!
I think you're right. That last 20 minute effort I did today, supposedly above my FTP for 20 minutes, felt OK. I would have kept it going for as long as possible (maybe even an hour, you never know...), but I was into my 4th hour of rollers within a 24 hour period and i'd ran out of motivational race videos to watch.0 -
I know, but that's what Bhima is claiming for his rollers thoughdoyler78 wrote:I thought power & speed weren't linear.0 -
doyler78 wrote:Bronzie wrote:
It's impossible to know what the power v speed relationship of your rollers is without access to power data - you can only guess that a 3.5% drop in speed equates to the same drop in power.Bhima wrote:the power/speed relationship of my rollers is pretty good as long as I keep on top of tyre pressures...
If you want to try and estimate TSS scores for your rides, then you'd probably be more accurate in using the rough Intensity Factor for the workout:
•Less than 0.75 recovery rides
•0.75-0.85 endurance-paced training rides
•0.85-0.95 tempo rides, aerobic and anaerobic interval workouts (work and rest periods combined), longer (>2.5 h) road races
•0.95-1.05 lactate threshold intervals (work period only), shorter (<2.5 h) road races, criteriums, circuit races, longer (e.g., 40 km) TTs
•1.05-1.15 shorter (e.g., 15 km) TTs
TSS = IF x IF x 100
So a solid endurance ride [IF=0.8] scores 64TSS per hour. That's about as far as you can go without any power data.
I thought power & speed weren't linear.
out on the road they're not 'cause of wind resistance.
Don't know about rollers though. Can't be bothered/too late to find the equations.0 -
By the way, I have to go to 70 PSI before I actually notice a difference. 65-ish and there's an even bigger difference. The difference between 65 and 80 feels like the difference between quality race tyres and high-RR training tyres. So up to about 25W difference if you believe the tyre manufacturer's claims.0
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Bhima wrote:[Well, I do want to race, but I also do understand that power can be an almost irrelevant predictor of performance when doing them.
I think things like SPRINT power can be irrelevant when it comes to racing, but FTP power is important as it will give you a good idea of whether you can keep up with the field or not.
I might be wrong on this of course.
But I'll say this: if I can race (with one leg) then anyone can with a bit of training, etc.
I didn't use a power meter last year when racing and had no data. My training was poor but I still got out there.
With a power meter - my training is improving and I have quantifiable results to show for it. This is what you want - to see numbers and see where you are strong and weak so you can improve those areas. That's the right attitude.
Racing is easy. Racing WELL is hard.0 -
His name is Andrew R Coggan, PhDdoyler78 wrote:Dr Coogan Ph.d.0 -
Edwin wrote:Just reading about this on another thread, and thought I'd start a new one instead of thread hijacking. I'm wondering what level of TSS points people work to on a weekly basis? I've had a quick search, and 500 to 800 seems to be about the going rate.
For those of you with powermeters and WKO, how do you decide your level? Is it from previous experience, or are you getting a coach to quantify it for you? Are there any guidelines depending on age, level etc? I'm 33 and currently a 3rd cat, I'm still working out my training plan but in the past I've had a tendency to overtrain and burn myself out so I'm interested in using this to train effectively.
Cheers
Ed
Reading the OP, you will see that Edwin didn't wish to hijack someone else's thread, so he started this one.
Bhima, take a leaf, start your own, then I won't keep visiting it, to see if any more sensible posts have been added. :shock:
If Power was so easy to guess at, someone would have created an Excel spreadsheet by now, and we wouldn't have to spend a fortune on Powertaps & SRM's!Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!0 -
I normally try to resist joining in and making fun of Bhima, but if he's ordered the book 'Training and Racing with a Powermeter', which is the one I assume he was talking about......and he doesn't have a powermeter......erm....
It's probably not worth trying to use the TSS system unless you can measure stuff properly. To be fair, I've realised my original question was a bit meaningless, as nobody can just say I need to do 'x' number of TSS points a week. I still need to get a proper figure for FTP, and get a few weeks worth of data to look at. I suppose what I was after is a rough idea of what kind of training load people recommend, as doing turbo intervals seem to be taking a lot out of me compared to riding on the road.
What I'm trying to acheive is precisely what Jeff described, mainly doing a lower total volume of training but higher intensity, resulting in being able to go quicker (isn't this what it's all about?).
This time last year I was old school, knocking out 200 miles a week, mostly on a fixed, which I've realised isn't the best approach as you end up doing 'junk miles' riding round slowly just to meet a target. The plan now is to do targetted sessions to increase FTP, the powermeter is just a device to tell if the training is having the desired effect or not. There's a lot to learn with all this stuff, so I'm not going to slate anyone else too much just yet.
Thanks to everyone who's posted (sensible stuff!) anyway.
Ed0 -
Edwin wrote:
I normally try to resist joining in and making fun of Bhima, but if he's ordered the book 'Training and Racing with a Powermeter', which is the one I assume he was talking about......and he doesn't have a powermeter......erm....
Well - I've ordered some sexy lingerie, but I don't have a girlfriend. Yet.
He's ordered the book in anticipation of getting his powermeter. Makes sense to actually READ it before attempting to follow the training plans/tips in it.
As for me and my lingerie situation.... anyone know of a single, hot, fit, sexy (road) biker chick in the North West? :oops:0 -
Pokerface wrote:Edwin wrote:
I normally try to resist joining in and making fun of Bhima, but if he's ordered the book 'Training and Racing with a Powermeter', which is the one I assume he was talking about......and he doesn't have a powermeter......erm....
Well - I've ordered some sexy lingerie, but I don't have a girlfriend. Yet.
He's ordered the book in anticipation of getting his powermeter. Makes sense to actually READ it before attempting to follow the training plans/tips in it.
As for me and my lingerie situation.... anyone know of a single, hot, fit, sexy (road) biker chick in the North West? :oops:
That likes a man in lingerie...0 -
"Makes sense to actually READ it before attempting to follow the training plans/tips in it."
OK, I'll give you that one. I've bought a power meter, then ordered the new edition of the book, which won't be delivered until that start of the season!
Can't help with knowing any single women into cycling though, that's a rare thing
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NapoleonD wrote:Pokerface wrote:Edwin wrote:
I normally try to resist joining in and making fun of Bhima, but if he's ordered the book 'Training and Racing with a Powermeter', which is the one I assume he was talking about......and he doesn't have a powermeter......erm....
Well - I've ordered some sexy lingerie, but I don't have a girlfriend. Yet.
He's ordered the book in anticipation of getting his powermeter. Makes sense to actually READ it before attempting to follow the training plans/tips in it.
As for me and my lingerie situation.... anyone know of a single, hot, fit, sexy (road) biker chick in the North West? :oops:
That likes a man in lingerie...
Hey Nap - can you help me? I can't reach that knife in my back. LOL
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone made the comment....0 -
On the contrary, most of the cyclists I know are ladies.
Got the book this morning. If I read it now, in a few weeks time, I can get using my power meter effectively ASAP.0 -
Pokerface wrote:NapoleonD wrote:Pokerface wrote:Edwin wrote:
I normally try to resist joining in and making fun of Bhima, but if he's ordered the book 'Training and Racing with a Powermeter', which is the one I assume he was talking about......and he doesn't have a powermeter......erm....
Well - I've ordered some sexy lingerie, but I don't have a girlfriend. Yet.
He's ordered the book in anticipation of getting his powermeter. Makes sense to actually READ it before attempting to follow the training plans/tips in it.
As for me and my lingerie situation.... anyone know of a single, hot, fit, sexy (road) biker chick in the North West? :oops:
That likes a man in lingerie...
Hey Nap - can you help me? I can't reach that knife in my back. LOL
I knew it was only a matter of time before someone made the comment....
Matter of time?!?
It was less than 1 minute!0 -
Bhima wrote:On the contrary, most of the cyclists I know are ladies.
Got the book this morning. If I read it now, in a few weeks time, I can get using my power meter effectively ASAP.
You don't have one :shock: You have half of one! Which doesn't include the hub :shock:
If you ask me nicely, I'm about to put mine on the market, with two fitting kits, so you can have two bikes!!!! Start with a budget, finish with a mortgage!0 -
so back to the original topic: i take it that its not the tss per week thats more important. but instead its the tss increase week on week??
and who were those babes I saw you with in team gb kit that time???Bhima wrote:On the contrary, most of the cyclists I know are ladies.
m8, hook a brother up. 0 -
Yes the ramp rate is very important but (I think) you'll also find that there's a limit to how many points you can manage on a consistent basis. You may also find like a lot of people do that less points is better. You certainly can't assume that if your on 120 pts then you'll ride better than on 100pts. 120 might just be too much for you.
So yes the tss per week is important.
Also how you make up those point is important but that's another topic.0
