Training for La Marmotte

SJO76

I have signed up for La Marmotte this year, but since returning from my week in the Alps in late August 09 I have hardly had any consistent riding time for one reason or another.

Now I have the turbo setup so as soon as my sinus infection goes I am going to get back into it. I have ordered a replacement HRM transmitter and I am going to try to be a bit more organised about training for the first time ever. I gather I need to get some base miles in over the next month or so before building for the sportive season. I have signed up for Mad March Hare (70 miles early March), Castle Ride (100 miles mid May), and Dragon (early June).

I am not into racing, not especially quick (17mph avg) and need to build up again. I wouldn't mind being a little quicker so come La Marmotte time I don't take 12 hours or something. Does anyone have a training plan they would recommend? Or perhaps a book?

I am really anxious that come June I can complete the Dragon Gran Fondo (something i haven't yet tried, done the Medio twice) as a final test.

dave milne

Main thing is endurance - by the begininning of April you probably want to have at least 6 100 mile rides under your belt, do a long ride every weekend up until the marmotte.

Then if you wish you try to boost your power by doing mid week intervals but endurance is the main one, you will be riding for 7 (if very good) to 12 hours for the marmotte.

ded

SJO76 wrote:

I gather I need to get some base miles in over the next month or so before building for the sportive season.

Well that's some people's opinion I did the Marmotte last year without a gazillion base miles in the winter and I was fine, so I wouldn't kill yourself going out in the snow or going demented doing long stints on the turbo!

I have used a few books for training, not as "bibles" but to inform what I did and when: Smart Cycling: Successful Training and Racing for Riders of All Levels and Time Crunched Cyclist and the Lance Armstrong one.

The important point in all of it is that if you want to get faster, you need to work on your output at your "threshold" (someone more qualified will probably jump in here - Alex Simmons where are you?). And for that, hour long stints on the turbo are great and hours and hours at a (relatively) easy pace are not. That's what I did in the winter last year and only in the spring/summer did I get out and get the long rides in.

dave milne wrote:

endurance is the main one

I sort of disagree. The Marmotte is pretty special in this I think - you are either working hard (going up) or resting (going down)! The ability to pootle along on the flat for hours on end won't help you much, I reckon the ability to do a good 25mile or 50mile TT will! The Marmotte was only my 6th ride of over 100km last year I think and I did OK.

cookiemonster

I did the marmotte last year; I was fairly new to cycling but managed it in just over 8 hours.

My approach was not to thnk of the marmotte as one long sportive - but as four climbs each lasting 60-90 minutes, linked with rest periods. So my training was largely based around sitting at my climbing heart rate for 60-90 minutes (increasing this as my fitness improved), then linking these efforts with at least one long ride (4-5 hours) at the weekend. I tended (and still do) to do stuff like 5 minutes standing, 5 minutes grinding at 60-65rpm and 5 minutes at 85-90rpm just to keep things interesting. I also threw in some interval sessions, mainly when I didnt have 60-90 minutes to spare (e.g. 30 minutes of 3 minute intervals can be fitted into 40 minutes)

I do believe that the limiting factor and hence the starting point for any training regime is the time and logistics you have available. Work that out, and then go looking for the most suitable training program you can fit into it

Cheers

Jon

Abdoujaparov

Thanks for the tips folks.

So what is more beneficial: 75 minutes at clmibing heart rate (sounds good cos it's specific to the task at hand) or 2 x 20 mins threshold intervals (sounds good cos it boost lactate threshold)?

How about doing one of these each week? Alternating perhaps?

Bronzie

Some useful info in this thread (esp the contributions by Bahzob):
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12663087

Bronzie

Abdoujaparov wrote:

So what is more beneficial: 75 minutes at clmibing heart rate (sounds good cos it's specific to the task at hand) or 2 x 20 mins threshold intervals (sounds good cos it boost lactate threshold)?

How about doing one of these each week? Alternating perhaps?

It's not really a case of which is better - both have their place within a training plan.

2x20's @ Level 4 will usually leave you a bit fatigued so probably unable to do these sessions back-to-back on consecutive days, but quite possible to do 2-3 sessions a week if you have the willpower (and build to this level slowly) with 2-3 sessions of L3 work on the intervening days.

term1te

I also did the Marmotte last year. I agree with the comments above, I think you do need to get a good number of miles in, but quite how many depends on how fast you want to do it, and how good you want to feel the next day. I'm fortunate to have some big hills around to train on, but I reccon the best training I did last year were long time trial type rides. I've got a flat 40 mile route up a river valley, obviously your position on the bike will be different, but spending around 2 hours at near maximum sustainable output is good training for getting up the Galibier.

Technique is also important especially descending off the Glandon in a big pack. If you can practice group riding at speed you will feel more relaxed on the descents which can save a lot of nervous energy and help your overall performance. You'll be safer too.

The only aspect that you may find difficult to train for in the UK is the heat. Climbing the alp d'Huez was like being in an oven last year, but equally you're going above the snow line at the top of the Galibier.

If you can, get out there a week early and recce the course, nothing like riding into form.

oldwelshman

If you do not race and this is your first attempt at Marmotte and long events I would not try to get too technical with all this talk if intervals, threshold training etc.
There is more than one way to skin a cat and some people prefer some methods to others.
In my first year back I did several sportives including the Dragon, North Wales Gran Fondo, Pinarello Gran Fondo Marmotte and got gold in every one and I did not do any specific type of structured training.
I just did club rides on weekends, long one on saturdays, and some midweek rides up to 60miles and on average did between 200 and 300 mies a week depending on the weather.
The one thing is for sure, the Marmotte is an endurance event.
You just need to ride regular gradually increasing your miles.
I would nbot worry about not having done a 100 miles ride before April.
If you can ride 75 you can ride a hundred!!
The rides you planned before Marmotte are good prep and give you an idea, you just need to be able to be in saddle for 8 to 10 hours and get your food and drink right.
As for speed, if you ride regular you will ride faster so it depends what your target is. Ok, if your aiming to get in top 50, by all means start doing lots of turbo training , intervals, etc but I suspect that would be over the top looking at your experience. Just do some group rides and enjoy your preperation and you will do well and 17mph currently is fine and you will go faster in the Dragon when riding amongst others just don't get drawn in to riding too fast too early or you will pay later in the ride.
You will do fine

SJO76

Thanks for all the helpful advice.

I had a weeks trip to Bourg D'Oisans last summer. And I have cycled all of the Marmotte climbs on different days so know what to expect on that front. Its still hard to imagine doing them all in one day and doing 110+miles too. I definitely could see what the benefits of spending a week there pre-event are as I felt surprisingly stronger towards the end of the week rather than feeling knackered (though I did take it at my own pace). Learning the craft of descending was essential too.

I have a week booked in a chalet on Alp D'Huez come Marmotte time and will at the very least go for half a week (a week if work/the missus approve).

It is difficult to know how to approach training for something like the Marmotte, but once I get back into the training I like the idea of mixing up the long miles with some mid-week TT type efforts. This way I can accustom myself to the long hours in the saddle, deal with constant exersion, and maybe get a little quicker too. Getting back out with a club is going to be a must too as my group riding has probably got a little rusty.

SJO76

The fueling question is another interesting one. At the moment I am thinking of taking a stack of Nuun type tablets to make sure I have enough. And the mix things up a bit on the food front so I don't end up getting to that sweet stuff saturation point where the thought of food makes you gag.

term1te

There are also a lot of watering opportunities on the route, so if you plan well you don't need to lug 2l of water up every col.

dave milne

[quote="ded

dave milne wrote:

endurance is the main one

I sort of disagree. The Marmotte is pretty special in this I think - you are either working hard (going up) or resting (going down)! The ability to pootle along on the flat for hours on end won't help you much, I reckon the ability to do a good 25mile or 50mile TT will! The Marmotte was only my 6th ride of over 100km last year I think and I did OK.[/quote]

Yes and no - for me it's about being mentally ready to spend 8hours+ in the saddle, regarding the distance itself as nothing.

Yes like you say pootling on the flat is not the same as the long efforts up the climb, bu tit seems like a good place to start for me.

skavanagh.bikeradar

I did it in 2008 and just about finished it.....found it very toug on the Alpe, blowing up about a third of the way up and then going to hell and back to get to the top, the fnal climb took me 2.5 hours. I'd earlier had a terrible time on the Telegraphe too after getting it all wrong on the flat in the valley and working too hard on the front or back of groups. Silly. 11hrs 43-ish in the end.

I'd trained reasonably well for it, I'd done about 6 or 7 sportives including the Fred Whitton so I wasn't avoiding hard long rides and I was on the turbo 2 or 3 times a week and out at weekends over the winter. In the end I cycle 100 miles fairly comfortably esp. if flattish but the amount of climbing did me in. If I was to do it again I'd do more of this much talked of 'threshold' work to help my climbing and at the same time lose weight. I'd probably structure it from November onwards and not worry about longer rides (4hrs tops given my family committments) until the weather warmed up and it was bit lighter.

I'd like to have metric centuries under my belt from January. Once I could I'd try and fit in longer 'sweetspot' (search this forum for that, well worth it) ride in mid-week too say 2 hours/30 odd miles. And I'd do less sportives but really treat them seriously, riding them as well as I can not pootling round and making sure I test my eating/drinking strategy under a bit of pressure.

Bazhob's advice is well worth a read. I'd also come up with a mantra that you can repeat over and over and over while climbing to keep you going. If you stop you are knackered, so come up with something, just a few words to keep your head!

liversedge

dave milne wrote:

[quote="ded

dave milne wrote:

endurance is the main one

I sort of disagree.

I sort of disagree too. If you take this statement to mean go and ride 6-7 hour rides as prep and spend most of your time at tempo you will have a really miserable day at La Marmotte.

Its all about the climbing. 4 major cols working at threshold. You need to train by working hard for 60-90 minutes at L4 as much as you can manage (whilst having enough recovery time).

Perfect training session would be 90 minutes just below L4, 30 mins L1, 90 minutes just below L4, 30 minutes L1, 90 minutes just below L4. Do that on a turbo with a feeble fan to simulate the heat and you'll get a taste for climbing those Cols in 40C.

If you can get to the end of that workout by July you'll be fine. And get seriously thin for your body shape.

By all means throw in lots of long rides too, but its all about the climbing.

skavanagh.bikeradar

It depends on your goals I guess. Mine was simply to complete it, and while it was a close shave I managed it. However, when I do it again I'll have a time in mind which changes the game completely and then it is all about threshold sessions and losing weight. I reckon if you can do a good '25' you can ride a good Marmotte, and as we don't have Alps in Oxfordshire training for 4x 25's separated by a bit of flat is probably the way to go. It sounds mental but Liversedge probably isn't 100 miles from being right. I wondered about the value (time pressures, can't do the mental session Liversedge suggests) of doing 2x20 x2 or x4 i.e. 115 minutes and 160 minutes. Assuming you can sit on the turbo in that amount of effort for that long without your brain giving up.

berliner

Good old English sportives are great but the thing that seems to destroy most Brit riders is the furnace like heat you get cycling the in southern France.
When I was a fit young man doing lots of sportives I remember training in the Alps in May and flying up the climbs. Sadly 2 months later, though still fit, I died a death most foul each time I did a French event. Still finished but I think I lost about 20% performance. For training I would suggest you wrap yourself up in cling film and foil plus all your thermals and a nice warm duffel coat and you'll be fine.

liversedge

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

I wondered about the value (time pressures, can't do the mental session Liversedge suggests) of doing 2x20 x2 or x4 i.e. 115 minutes and 160 minutes. Assuming you can sit on the turbo in that amount of effort for that long without your brain giving up.

To be clear, I was suggesting that the majority of sessions are focused on L4 type efforts, be that for 2x20, 60 minutes or whatever.

The "mental" session I recommended would be something that would be done to track progress and simulate the kind of ride La Marmotte is, but without going too far. Specificity and all that. Given that it takes 6-7 hours I was suggesting working up to it - not doing it as a regular workout!! I assume most folks here have the intelligence to work that out!

And lastly, I wouldn't be doing it on a turbo. You'd go absolutely INSANE!

skavanagh.bikeradar

No, I know you werent suggesting it as a regular ride! The point Berliner makes about the heat is a good one. In 2008 it wasn't that bad, although it was flippin' hot on the Alpe - so god only knows what it'd be like if it was hotter throughout the day - so you do need to be prepared for that. Making sure you drink enough, pace yourself correctly and eat enough are key there. I lost the plot on that, but knowing the route helps, so next time I'll have a better strategy.

Tip one would be don't stop at the top of the Glandon as it is a bun-fight and the same goes for the top of the Telegraphe.

Casbar

liversedge wrote:

dave milne wrote:

[quote="ded

dave milne wrote:

endurance is the main one

I sort of disagree.

I sort of disagree too. If you take this statement to mean go and ride 6-7 hour rides as prep and spend most of your time at tempo you will have a really miserable day at La Marmotte.

Its all about the climbing. 4 major cols working at threshold. You need to train by working hard for 60-90 minutes at L4 as much as you can manage (whilst having enough recovery time).

Perfect training session would be 90 minutes just below L4, 30 mins L1, 90 minutes just below L4, 30 minutes L1, 90 minutes just below L4. Do that on a turbo with a feeble fan to simulate the heat and you'll get a taste for climbing those Cols in 40C.

If you can get to the end of that workout by July you'll be fine. And get seriously thin for your body shape.

By all means throw in lots of long rides too, but its all about the climbing.

Sorry to be lazy and not search for it, but what does L1, L2 , L3 and L4 mean ?

Bronzie

Casbar wrote:

Sorry to be lazy and not search for it, but what does L1, L2 , L3 and L4 mean ?

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... oggan.aspx

Casbar

Bronzie wrote:

Casbar wrote:

Sorry to be lazy and not search for it, but what does L1, L2 , L3 and L4 mean ?

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... oggan.aspx

Thanks

Abdoujaparov

My training is all over the shop at the moment - I'm doing a fair amount, but it really ain't the sort of stuff that will get me around La Marmotte in a decent time.

Tonight was supposed to be a recovery ride, but before I knew it I was hammering up hills in Crystal Palace. Yes, that's right - short hills...no real benefit for long, steady Alps! Nice one.

Been doing that quite a bit recently. Been doing quite a lot of running too. Friday I did 8.5 miles, Saturday 30 miles on the bike and Sunday 30 miles cycle and 8 miles running.

Think I need the variety and at least I'm getting out there and getting the blood pumping. Figure it should be fine to get a bit more focused in Feb/March.

How's everyone else's training going?

ketsbaia

Abdoujaparov wrote:

Tonight was supposed to be a recovery ride, but before I knew it I was hammering up hills in Crystal Palace. Yes, that's right - short hills...no real benefit for long, steady Alps! Nice one.

Depends really. If you're just looking to get a bit of gradient in your legs, I'd have thought it would be fine. Especially Dulwich Wood Park/College Road, which is a 7-10% drag of just less than a mile. I spent quite a bit of time doing reps of that road before heading off to south Wales for a recce of the Dragon Ride last year and it stood me in reasonably good stead. Lordship Lane up to Horniman Museum then up Sydenham Hill's a nice little tester too. And I've just found an 18% half kilometre slope near Forest Hill, which I plan tackling a few times when the weather improves, although I realise it's not a whole heap of use for La Marmotte.

Abdoujaparov wrote:

How's everyone else's training going?

Slowly. I've only just started on the turbo. :shock:

SJO76

I do the Dulwich Wood Park/College Road drag when I commute to Chislehurst via Bromley. There are a few nice hills along that route (and on the way back like Westwood)... I will check out the Lordship Lane/Sydenham Hill run sometime.

When I get back into training I will prob head back out to Westerham for the likes of Star Hill.

term1te

SJO76 wrote:

I do the Dulwich Wood Park/College Road drag when I commute to Chislehurst via Bromley. There are a few nice hills along that route (and on the way back like Westwood)... I will check out the Lordship Lane/Sydenham Hill run sometime.

When I get back into training I will prob head back out to Westerham for the likes of Star Hill.

I used to live in Cudham, not far from Westerham and regularly cycled up and down the hills from the Pilgrims way to Knockholt, Cudham, Bigginhill, etc. They are killers, but not that similar to anything on the Marmotte. I don't think anywhere on the Marmotte gets near the 20%+ you'll find on the Downs, but then you're not going to climb 5000 m in a day in Kent or Surrey.

ketsbaia

I quite like the long slow drag up to Biggin Hill from just the other side of Bromley. Probably no more than 6% at its steepest, but it does seem to go on forever. And you are rewarded with that superb descent down into Westerham.

That forms part of my 40-odd mile circuit from New Cross Gate, which takes in Biggin Hill, Crockham Hill, Edenbridge, then over towards Lingfield and back in to London through Godstone, Caterham and Croydon.

kcass

The accepted wisdom is that you should do 8-12 weeks of base training at this time of year.
This type of riding makes the body create more capillaries which will help when the harder training starts in March/April. No need to worry just yet.

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/training.html

Loads of training stuff here

Abdoujaparov

Got a great little loop around Crystal Palace that I'm doing a couple of times a week atm. Involves Sydenham Hill, Anerley Hill and College Rd (all uphill) and Crystal Palace Park Road and Gypsy Hill (both downhill). Will try some of those other options though. Ketsbaia, what's the 18 per center near Forest Hill?

Generally do that loop twice in the evening so in less than an hour that's six hills and two pools of lactic acid in my legs!

Used to cycle down Westerham way too. Big fan of the 20+ % White Lane in Titsey -what a beast!

Tend to go down to Box Hill, Leith Hill, Ranmore Hill, Winterfold etc now though.

term1te

Try Brasted Hill going up to Knockholt. My parents live near the top and it used to be a first gear hill for my old Morris traveller. Turn left at the top along "The Noah" then back down Hogtrough Hill. Neather are very Marmottesque, but they'll give you a good work out. Church Hill in Cudham, not far from there, is 25%, but I think Brasted Hill is worse.

For the Marmotte though, I still think 25 or 40 km time-trial type rides are the best training, rather than short sharp hills.

Abdoujaparov

Cheers Term1te. Pretty sure I've done Church Hill before, if that's the one that only gets properly tough at the top? Will have to give Brasted Hill a go - any other good ones around that way I should be taking in?