Let it go Lance
Comments
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BikingBernie wrote:bennyhana22 wrote:In the 90's 'they were all on it' so all that doped in similar programmes should have seen a similar return on their immoral investment...bet then if interpersonal responses to doping are highly variable then did Armstrong, Riis and Indurain really achieve all they did solely on the basis of individual response? Or is it individual response plus inherent physiological advantage as we are so often told re: Indurains lung capacity etc...or could it, just could it be, in part that some are prepared to work that much harder than the average guy?
Firstly, riders benefit from Epo use and blood doping to hugely different degrees. To put it most simply a rider with a natural haemocrit of 39 has much more to gain from boosting it to 49.9, or higher, than someone whose natural haemocrit level is 49.
True, natural talent and hard work still play an important role. However, it is a complete myth that the harder you train, the better you will be: often the biggest improvements in performance come for training less and resting more.
To be honest, having gone through this many times before, it is often apparent that many people like to believe in the Armstrong myth because it fits in with their personal political beliefs, especially a belief in the myths of the meritocratic society. That is the attitude that those who succeed deserve all they get, and those who don't 'succeed' not only can be blamed for not having the necessary talent or will to work hard enough, they don't deserve any help or even sympathy from the 'winners' in society.
Thank you for the brief seminar in respiratory physiology, I should have spent more time in the lecture theatre and less time on the rugby pitch at Med School! For 'harder' read 'smarter' then, if you wish, but I think that we both know what I meant and that your foray into goepolitical philosophy does not detract from the likely truth that LA's determination and application (plus the drugs etc blah blah blah) is what put him at th top of the mountain when most of the blood-doped and EPO-fuelled professioanl ranks were in the foothills. Your failure openly to admit applying double standards to many in cycling based on your personal preferences and agenda speaks volumes in the self-deception stakes
Ben0 -
bennyhana22 wrote:are we so shallow that our dislike of a man's ego and persona makes us unable to see through to his achievements?
Ben
or do his achievements make us unable to see through to a man's ego and persona ?
Lance Armstrong has been voted the 2009 Legend of the Year.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2009-re ... -armstronginterview.cyclingfever.com0 -
calvjones wrote:frenchfighter wrote:You miss the point entirely - they illustrate his GT dominance.
Furthermore, Sidi are Italian so they are not produced by Spaniards.
Additionally, they are a quality pair of shoes...but maybe if you prefer the black shoes of Lanceho and Wigola then your opinion would make sense.
Jeez, yes, silly me. There was me thinking the three crowns were there because he was king of Spain :roll:
This kind of 'look at me' grandstanding with second rate, obvious 'iconic' imagery is something he shares with funnily enough, Lance Armstrong. Although to be fair I wonder if AC has more taste than to actually wear these?
You wouldn't have caught Kelly with a bunch of green shamrocks on his shoes.
Personally I don't think you can read too much into it, as they're all at these days. Look at Federer and some of the stuff he wears at Wimbledon? The jacket with a golden F and all the references to his Wimbledon wins.
Adds a bit of spice I guess.0 -
lucybears wrote:bennyhana22 wrote:are we so shallow that our dislike of a man's ego and persona makes us unable to see through to his achievements?
Ben
or do his achievements make us unable to see through to a man's ego and persona ?
Lance Armstrong has been voted the 2009 Legend of the Year.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/2009-re ... -armstrong
Touche, LB
Ben0 -
Funny that Contador has been equally close to death (if not a little closer) yet manages to (apparently) deal with his success with charm and equanimity.0
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micron wrote:Funny that Contador has been equally close to death (if not a little closer) yet manages to (apparently) deal with his success with charm and equanimity.
Check. Check. Check. Touché.
He has continuing problems and takes medicine daily to prevent epiletic fits.
That is why he has the huge scar on his head:
Contador is the Greatest0 -
What a stupid comment. Both were very close to death's door, does it matter how they got there?0
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Personally I thought problems with your brain were amung the worst sort of problems you could have.
But you are correct in your comment AndyP.Contador is the Greatest0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:To be fair Bernie, Benny's chief crime seems to be disagreeing with you and to be willing to say so and not back down in the face of your links. He's not coming over as some crazed fan-boy, just a guy with a balanced opinion and a desire to debate.
I'll correct that for you.
'To be fair Bernie, Benny's chief crime seems to be his unwillingness to back down in the face of the evidence. He's not coming over as some crazed fan-boy, just a guy who's determined to ignore all the evidence that shows where he is wrong, instead shifting the debate to other peripheral issues.'
By the way, I wonder how saying of another forum member 'You are the epitome of everything narrow-mindedly obsessive about so much on this forum!' Is evidence of an honest desire to 'debate'. :roll:0 -
sampras38 wrote:micron wrote:Funny that Contador has been equally close to death (if not a little closer) yet manages to (apparently) deal with his success with charm and equanimity.
Hardly in the same league as nearly dying from cancer though, is it?
Is it really? How do you know? Is that because he doesn't scream to the world about it every 2 minutes?x-x-x-x-x-x-x-x
Commuting / Winter rides - Jamis Renegade Expert
Pootling / Offroad - All-City Macho Man Disc
Fast rides Cannondale SuperSix Ultegra0 -
andyp wrote:What a stupid comment. Both were very close to death's door, does it matter how they got there?
I knew AC had an operation for the cerebral cavernoma condition but wasn't aware it was as life threatening in the end as what LA had. If I'm wrong I'll accept it no problem and it certainly wasn't meant to take anything away from AC.
I don't think the comment was stupid at all though, but if you do, then fair enough.0 -
BikingBernie wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:To be fair Bernie, Benny's chief crime seems to be disagreeing with you and to be willing to say so and not back down in the face of your links. He's not coming over as some crazed fan-boy, just a guy with a balanced opinion and a desire to debate.
I'll correct that for you.
'To be fair Bernie, Benny's chief crime seems to be his unwillingness to back down in the face of the evidence. He's not coming over as some crazed fan-boy, just a guy who's determined to ignore all the evidence that shows where he is wrong, instead shifting the debate to other peripheral issues.'
By the way, I wonder how saying of another forum member 'You are the epitome of everything narrow-mindedly obsessive about so much on this forum!' Is evidence of an honest desire to 'debate'. :roll:
I'll bite once more, Bernie. The tone and content of your, and many others', posts on this forum are spectacularly narrow in their subject matter, namely doping and moreover, Lance's doping, which is regularly elevated to levels tantamount to treason for reasons that to the outsider can only be interpreted as because you all despise the guy. Given that, the unvaried subject matter and intransigent opinion warranted my earlier description. You are clearly extremely well-informed on the subject, but I am not the type to back away from an intelligent debate when another party fails to address the specific issue! And your inflammatory use of the term fanboy in light of my gentle assertion that I have no particular fondness for Lance (as I have alluded to in earlier posts today, only to be greeted with insinuations of 'methinks the lady doth protest too much') is out of place with the intelligence of your other responses. Difficult balance, this internet debating, eh?
Ben0 -
frenchfighter wrote:Personally I thought problems with your brain were amung the worst sort of problems you could have.
But you are correct in your comment AndyP.
Just for balance and anatomical clarity, LA had brain metastases from his testicular tumour which required surgical excision. So that's 15-all in the pointless 'the rider I like was closer to death than the one you like was' debate!
Ben0 -
bennyhana22 wrote:frenchfighter wrote:Personally I thought problems with your brain were amung the worst sort of problems you could have.
But you are correct in your comment AndyP.
Just for balance and anatomical clarity, LA had brain metastases from his testicular tumour which required surgical excision. So that's 15-all in the pointless 'the rider I like was closer to death than the one you like was' debate!
Ben
Fair point...;-)0 -
bennyhana22 wrote:[
I'll bite once more, Bernie. The tone and content of your, and many others', posts on this forum are spectacularly narrow in their subject matter, namely doping and moreover, Lance's doping,
Ben
Hold on Ben, 100% of your posts in 'Race' have been in an LA doping thread - even BB struggles to get that high (although he is trying. so trying ) ___________________
Strava is not Zen.0 -
Whew. Getting really, really, really, really weird. Which one had the MOST AWFUL
life threatening experience?????? I'm thinking the title should be changed to "Let it go,
everyone".0 -
calvjones wrote:bennyhana22 wrote:[
I'll bite once more, Bernie. The tone and content of your, and many others', posts on this forum are spectacularly narrow in their subject matter, namely doping and moreover, Lance's doping,
Ben
Hold on Ben, 100% of your posts in 'Race' have been in an LA doping thread - even BB struggles to get that high (although he is trying. so trying )
Guitly as charged, Calvjones. I truly had meant simply to post that first comment about how incredible I found it that a guy just 2 years younger than me could put himself through that sort of a programme and perform at that high a level. I think I'd better toddle off before I pigeon-hole myself any further!
Ben0 -
What a retarded and biased comment. My dad had the same condition a few years ago - and it is definitely in the same league as nearly dying from cancer. I can not even understand how Contador managed to come back so strong and so quickly after that. He probably still has strong headaches frequently, and epileptic medicine makes you tired/dizzy.sampras38 wrote:micron wrote:Funny that Contador has been equally close to death (if not a little closer) yet manages to (apparently) deal with his success with charm and equanimity.
Hardly in the same league as nearly dying from cancer though, is it?0 -
You put people off the scent by saying such things as:bennyhana22 wrote:I truly had meant simply to post that first comment about how incredible I found it that a guy just 2 years younger than me could put himself through that sort of a programme and perform at that high a level.
'Assuming he was clean for the 2009 Tour, which even the real haters must concede is almost certainly true...' :roll:0 -
BikingBernie wrote:
You put people off the scent by saying such things as:bennyhana22 wrote:I truly had meant simply to post that first comment about how incredible I found it that a guy just 2 years younger than me could put himself through that sort of a programme and perform at that high a level.
'Assuming he was clean for the 2009 Tour, which even the real haters must concede is almost certainly true...' :roll:
OK, Bernie. You can pick up your ball, I won't make you putt that out. Discussion conceded and your reputation on the forum can remain intact...
Thanks for an interesting day, one and all
Ben0 -
maltiv wrote:
What a retarded and biased comment. My dad had the same condition a few years ago - and it is definitely in the same league as nearly dying from cancer. I can not even understand how Contador managed to come back so strong and so quickly after that. He probably still has strong headaches frequently, and epileptic medicine makes you tired/dizzy.sampras38 wrote:micron wrote:Funny that Contador has been equally close to death (if not a little closer) yet manages to (apparently) deal with his success with charm and equanimity.
Hardly in the same league as nearly dying from cancer though, is it?
maybe the treatments by Dr Fuentes helped with this? sorry - just checked, it wasnt AC's blood in the bag after all :?0 -
It was your use of the word 'haters' that really gave the game away.bennyhana22 wrote:BikingBernie wrote:
You put people off the scent by saying such things as:bennyhana22 wrote:I truly had meant simply to post that first comment about how incredible I found it that a guy just 2 years younger than me could put himself through that sort of a programme and perform at that high a level.
'Assuming he was clean for the 2009 Tour, which even the real haters must concede is almost certainly true...' :roll:
OK, Bernie. You can pick up your ball, I won't make you putt that out. Discussion conceded and your reputation on the forum can remain intact...
Thanks for an interesting day, one and all
Ben
'Never has been the word 'hater' so overused and out of context.'
http://cozybeehive.blogspot.com/2009/07 ... trong.html0 -
The point for me is not that "most of the contenders were at it, hence LA is still the best" (or words to that effect), it is that there were some outstanding cyclists who weren't , who never had a chance of winning/competing. We don't know if LA, Big Mig, Riis or anyone else would have beaten them on an even field. Cycling has been a fraud for years, and we still have no idea whether or not this is improving. (Still gotta love it though)Dan0
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absolutely agree, flatty0
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flattythehurdler wrote:Cycling has been a fraud for years, and we still have no idea whether or not this is improving. (Still gotta love it though)
Maybe you're expecting too much from "the authorities". There are always wars against something(poverty, crime, drugs, terror) and most of them seem to drag on and on, so
I don't see cycling's "war", if you want to call it that, ending anytime soon. "The Authorities" are hampered by many things. The least of which are human rights and laws
protecting those rights, among many, many, other "problems".
Still gotta love it though.0 -
bennyhana22 wrote:The quality of this evidence is irrefutable and I bow to your more thorough research. Anecdotally though, as a medic, I would still stand by the position that mental approach is not without its merits. Much in medicine (and without) does not lend itself well to 'conventional' scientific scrutiny or testing, and I say this as an atheist, merely to clarify my 'spiritual' stance on such issues.
Ben
Report on Newsnight in a minute about cancer and positive thinking. If anyone is interested.0 -
I'm not denying that there is a link between positive thinking and successful outcomes in many areas, but I do have an overwhelming urge to batter relatives who urge their nearest and dearest to 'fight the cancer' when medicine has thrown all it could at them, they are clearly dying and in need of good terminal care.
It's not that people don't mean well, it just heaps a pile of guilt on the final weeks/days/hours of their loved ones. "You're not fighting hard enough" is a phrase that should be banned.
I've known a wife who stopped her husband making a will because 'that would be giving into the cancer' and I could go on and on.
But I won't.0
