When your brain is saying STOP during an interval...
Bhima
Posts: 2,145
How the heck do you tell your brain to pi55 off? How do you stay motivated to complete the planned time for the interval?
I feel i'm losing my mind when i'm doing a steady effort for more than 3 minutes on rollers... :? Out on the road it feels different and 3 minutes fly by. Not so indoors!
Progressively harder breathing over the course of an interval is the main thing that causes the initial composure loss for me. I feel like i'm slowly losing a grip on reality - and the handlebars! The loss of interest leads to slight loss of balance on the rollers: my upper body gets weak and is probably being shut down to compensate for my legs and their crazy blood binge. Ultimately, this demoralizing state of disorientation starts to increase thoughts of how good it would be to just give in as well as random hallucinations as time itself appears to slowly grind to a halt... That last minute just seems to go on forever and I could have sworn I saw time going backwards at one point today! :shock:
[Cue: Someone telling me I need to MTFU!]
Recently i've been experimenting with my suffering levels and forcing myself to go faster every time I do an interval, radically pushing out the boundaries of what I thought my limitations were. I've been able to increase the "distance travelled" on the rollers without fail every time I do 10 minutes all-out and i'm quite suprised how far I can push it. It's got to the point now where I've only been gaining 0.01 - 0.05 km for a massive increase in effort over 10 minutes, so I feel i'm getting very close to the maximum pace I can sustain for that.
I tend to get mentally drained quicker than physically drained and one of these days I fear i'll give up right before the 10/15/20/etc minute mark as i'm increasingly pushing harder.
Do you find it's better to concentrate on your effort, so you dont drift away from your target pace but at the expense of seemingly percieving time as twice as slow? Or is it better to take your mind off the time by "doing" something else, like watching a bike race for motivation or listening to music, but possibly leaving yourself vulnerable to losing focus on your effort and getting lazy?
I've got a bit of free time over xmas which I want to use to develop my pacing/interval technique and I don't know if i'll make it out of 2009 sane at the current rate of torture! :shock:
I feel i'm losing my mind when i'm doing a steady effort for more than 3 minutes on rollers... :? Out on the road it feels different and 3 minutes fly by. Not so indoors!
Progressively harder breathing over the course of an interval is the main thing that causes the initial composure loss for me. I feel like i'm slowly losing a grip on reality - and the handlebars! The loss of interest leads to slight loss of balance on the rollers: my upper body gets weak and is probably being shut down to compensate for my legs and their crazy blood binge. Ultimately, this demoralizing state of disorientation starts to increase thoughts of how good it would be to just give in as well as random hallucinations as time itself appears to slowly grind to a halt... That last minute just seems to go on forever and I could have sworn I saw time going backwards at one point today! :shock:
[Cue: Someone telling me I need to MTFU!]
Recently i've been experimenting with my suffering levels and forcing myself to go faster every time I do an interval, radically pushing out the boundaries of what I thought my limitations were. I've been able to increase the "distance travelled" on the rollers without fail every time I do 10 minutes all-out and i'm quite suprised how far I can push it. It's got to the point now where I've only been gaining 0.01 - 0.05 km for a massive increase in effort over 10 minutes, so I feel i'm getting very close to the maximum pace I can sustain for that.
I tend to get mentally drained quicker than physically drained and one of these days I fear i'll give up right before the 10/15/20/etc minute mark as i'm increasingly pushing harder.
Do you find it's better to concentrate on your effort, so you dont drift away from your target pace but at the expense of seemingly percieving time as twice as slow? Or is it better to take your mind off the time by "doing" something else, like watching a bike race for motivation or listening to music, but possibly leaving yourself vulnerable to losing focus on your effort and getting lazy?
I've got a bit of free time over xmas which I want to use to develop my pacing/interval technique and I don't know if i'll make it out of 2009 sane at the current rate of torture! :shock:
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Comments
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Maybe you should just ease off a bit, it's only December after all..................0
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I find it hard to believe your brain tells you anything bhima.0
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redddraggon wrote:inseine wrote:Maybe you should just ease off a bit, it's only December after all..................
That doesn't actually matter to Bhima because it's doubt he'll ever race against real opposition, so the concept of "seasons" is not necessary to Bhima.
:roll:
Good points both, I haven't my HR above 90% since September, why do you need to kill yourself when there aren't any events to ride for at least another 8 weeks?
And yeah, what's your calender looking like for next year Bhima?Stillw aiting to hear from you about a trip round the Whitton route so you can show me your Millar-esque climbing ablility."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
What are your goals for next year, that generally keeps my mind focused on efforts. I wouldn't do intervals if I didn't have an end goal.0
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HTFU.0
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A lot of people saying - it's the 'off season' and you're not doing intervals or raising your heart rate, etc.
Me - I'm on a 12-week training plan that at times calls for flat-out intervals (sometimes a minute, sometimes a 20-minute TT pace, etc).
The programs is telling me that the only way to improve my threshold power, etc - is to PUSH it.
So - why WOULDN'T you do some harder efforts this time of year?
(In 12 weeks I have a very important training camp so have to be race-fit at that time. Possibly why I'm training harder this time of year than most people or than I normally would).0 -
In 12 weeks I have a very important training camp so have to be race-fit at that time. Possibly why I'm training harder this time of year than most people or than I normally would).
It's fine to be 'race fit' for your training camp if that is your goal. For most people a training camp is part of the training process not the goal. You have to accept that you can't be on top form all year round and you may well be going less well come next summer than you are at the beginning of March.0 -
Pokerface wrote:A lot of people saying - it's the 'off season' and you're not doing intervals or raising your heart rate, etc.
Me - I'm on a 12-week training plan that at times calls for flat-out intervals (sometimes a minute, sometimes a 20-minute TT pace, etc).
The programs is telling me that the only way to improve my threshold power, etc - is to PUSH it.
So - why WOULDN'T you do some harder efforts this time of year?
(In 12 weeks I have a very important training camp so have to be race-fit at that time. Possibly why I'm training harder this time of year than most people or than I normally would).
My logic for not going all out at this time of year is I don't need to call on that fitness for 12 weeks yet, with my first goal race being in 14 weeks.
Over the years I've developed an understanding of how I, personally, react to training that tells me that I can progressively train that top end into a race ready state in about 10 weeks, but I can't hold it at the very top of my ability for more than a few weeks before I get fatigued and have to rest up for a bit.
It takes me longer to get that 85%-90% bracket to a point where I can sit at it consistently for 30-45 minutes, and I find that this is the most useful zone for the riding I do (cat 3 road racing, sportives, long steady climbs in training)... ergo, that's how I train. No point flogging yourself with no aim in mind!"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
inseine wrote:In 12 weeks I have a very important training camp so have to be race-fit at that time. Possibly why I'm training harder this time of year than most people or than I normally would).
It's fine to be 'race fit' for your training camp if that is your goal. For most people a training camp is part of the training process not the goal. You have to accept that you can't be on top form all year round and you may well be going less well come next summer than you are at the beginning of March.
It's a training camp - but also a trial to make a National Team. One shot only to impress and only a few days to do it in.
Win or lose - I can take a bit of a break afterwards before racing starts in earnest.0 -
I nearly gave up during a Threshold interval today but just kept thinking that if I did I was weak because I knew it was a level I could/should be able to sustain.
I ended up doing the full set in the end at my target wattage but mentally it was torture. I now feel very smug with myself that I managed to stop my brain telling me to stop pedalling...0 -
I find some "visioning" or whatever it's called helps, when it gets tough I start to imagine that I am in a situation where I need to keep pushing at the appropriate pace - staying away in a break with Voigt, coming off Cav's wheel, trying to drop Contador or pushing Cancellara's time in a TT or whatever. Keeps me motivated."And the Lord said unto Cain, 'where is Abel thy brother?' And he said, 'I know not: I dropped him on the climb up to the motorway bridge'."
- eccolafilosofiadelpedale0 -
That's the whole problem with too much intensity in the winter, at least for riders who are planning on racing next season. It's not that you won't improve, or that your body can't take it(with good nutrition etc). It's the fact that you'll be so mentally exhausted from pushing yourself all the time that you won't be as eager to push the limits come race day. Although, if you can mentally "handle" hard workouts all year round, then go for it! For me, it's definately a case of "slow and steady" wins the race at this time of year.0
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Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
Back to my original point - i've been offered some power testing over christmas and a mate is coming to stay in January with an SRM, so really, i'm trying to mentally prepare for what it takes to pace the intervals so I get some quality testing done. I'm not doing any more intervals than normal, but i've never explored the mental side of cycling so i've been pushing harder than normal. Yes, my goal is to race next season, where you sometimes can't pace things, but knowing your limitations allows you to break through them more effecively, right? I find it's helping on the climbs, where assessing how hard I can go before blowing is now a bit more of an educated guess, instead of just a guess.
mclarent - I reckon I need to get hold of the WC TT race from Mendrisio this year for a kick up the ar5e. Cancellara's ride was ridiculously inspirational.
Can you get used to this mental torture? Someone like Jens Voigt seems to enjoy it! :shock: [ Check this interview out! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UncELpyKQLU ]0 -
Bhima wrote:Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
So why do you suppose both pro and amateur racers take a complete break at the end of their seasons and then do low intensity work for a period?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Bhima wrote:Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
So why do you suppose both pro and amateur racers take a complete break at the end of their seasons and then do low intensity work for a period?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?gl=GB&feat ... 75S3kmasK80 -
NO youtube at work... Will need the jist of it! :?"In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
look at your race calendar work out the gaps between events and sort out your periodisation to match the biggest events, with smaller ones falling on moderate weeks, but races being hard weeks.
There is nothing wrong with doing high intensity work at this time of year, particularly if you're working to a low duration high intensity training program (ie don't have the luxury of being able to fit in 3 hours rides most days)
On the OP point, get yourself a coach who will be there with you. It really helps, my housemate has taken to borrowing me for her ergs to ensure she doesn't give up, but ergs are much tougher than cycling ("heart and power rates were significantly during rowing graded exercise tests and cycling ones" R&R magazine).
On an aside from this, rowing machines are great for cross training as a cyclist. Really improves CV fitness in comparison to say a turbo, but cycling tends to give a higher max power output (5%-7%)0 -
pros and elite athletes will benefit more from an "off season" but less so for everyone else. kinda like EPO/better bike equipment really.
besides, for them its a job... they push SO damn hard that time off probabably helps but if youve been improving gradually for 17 months you are obv. not doing anything radical like suddenyly doubling trainign load etc. (i think) if you keep it a consistent training level you wont burn out. you could plateu if you dont keep yourself challenged however.
thaats my 2p. in a similar position too.0 -
ride_whenever wrote:look at your race calendar work out the gaps between events and sort out your periodisation to match the biggest events, with smaller ones falling on moderate weeks, but races being hard weeks.
There is nothing wrong with doing high intensity work at this time of year, particularly if you're working to a low duration high intensity training program (ie don't have the luxury of being able to fit in 3 hours rides most days)
On the OP point, get yourself a coach who will be there with you. It really helps, my housemate has taken to borrowing me for her ergs to ensure she doesn't give up, but ergs are much tougher than cycling ("heart and power rates were significantly during rowing graded exercise tests and cycling ones" R&R magazine).
On an aside from this, rowing machines are great for cross training as a cyclist. Really improves CV fitness in comparison to say a turbo, but cycling tends to give a higher max power output (5%-7%)
were significantly what?
Heh heh, I'm put out about 10% more power on the road than the turbo at Threshold...0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:Bhima wrote:Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
So why do you suppose both pro and amateur racers take a complete break at the end of their seasons and then do low intensity work for a period?
They won't do only low intensity though. They'll still do intervals and threshold work, and possibly gym work too. Showing up to a race after pooitling around for 6 months is a sure fire way of going out the back immediately (I have team mates who still do this, and as a result don't get race fit till about august). I don't see why with careful preparation you can't build your threshold through interval sessions etc right through winter without burning yourself out physically or mentally.
And the data about more power being produced rowing than cycling? Doesn't seem very valid since rowers use their full body (legs, back, arms etc)"A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
This topic was recently discussed at some length by the learned bods on the Wattage forum.ShockedSoShocked wrote:I don't see why with careful preparation you can't build your threshold through interval sessions etc right through winter without burning yourself out physically or mentally.
The consensus (to my unlearned eye, at least) seemed to boil down to...........
"If you CAN train a ton, you better spend most of it at lower intensities.
Because high volume + high intensity = bad things happens.
If you CAN'T train a ton, you better spend more of it at proportionally higher intensities.
Because low volume + low intensity = jack squat happens".
The definition of "ton" (ie the definition of where high volume starts) seemed to be around 13 hours per week [or 700 TSS/wk for the power nerds].
[/i]0 -
Bronzie wrote:
This topic was recently discussed at some length by the learned bods on the Wattage forum.ShockedSoShocked wrote:I don't see why with careful preparation you can't build your threshold through interval sessions etc right through winter without burning yourself out physically or mentally.
The consensus (to my unlearned eye, at least) seemed to boil down to...........
"If you CAN train a ton, you better spend most of it at lower intensities.
Because high volume + high intensity = bad things happens.
If you CAN'T train a ton, you better spend more of it at proportionally higher intensities.
Because low volume + low intensity = jack squat happens".
The definition of "ton" (ie the definition of where high volume starts) seemed to be around 13 hours per week [or 700 TSS/wk for the power nerds].
[/i]
Sounds about right I guess. I doubt many people have much over 13 hours a week to train unless you're very lucky. But 1 hour a week of intervals isn't a big ask really, especially this time of the year when the majority of training is probably indoor anyway through the week."A cyclist has nothing to lose but his chain"
PTP Runner Up 20150 -
ShockedSoShocked wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Bhima wrote:Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
So why do you suppose both pro and amateur racers take a complete break at the end of their seasons and then do low intensity work for a period?
They won't do only low intensity though. They'll still do intervals and threshold work, and possibly gym work too. Showing up to a race after pooitling around for 6 months is a sure fire way of going out the back immediately (I have team mates who still do this, and as a result don't get race fit till about august). I don't see why with careful preparation you can't build your threshold through interval sessions etc right through winter without burning yourself out physically or mentally.
And the data about more power being produced rowing than cycling? Doesn't seem very valid since rowers use their full body (legs, back, arms etc)
I don't disagree at all... I'm doing hte same myself, out of 9 hours a week i'm doing at the moment, 1 to 1 and a half hours will be at taht 85%-90% aerobic threshold level. What i'm saying is that the rest of the week is purely base level riding and gym work and that I see no benefit in constantly trying, as Bhima seems to be, to work out what my absolute maximum effort is, especially if i'm aiming to be competetive in 6 months time."In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"
@gietvangent0 -
disgruntledgoat wrote:ShockedSoShocked wrote:disgruntledgoat wrote:Bhima wrote:Well, I didn't really want to get into this discussion, but it's up to one to decide what type of training suits them best - personally, i've only ever percieved improvements over 16/17 months and therefore don't understand the whole "time of year" logic and how people can get burned out. Maybe i've not been riding enough to see it, but i've certainly never needed more than 2 days to recover from insane intervals - physically at least - and I used to go out and do hills every day! I don't have power measurements, but why stop pushing hard when I feel better every time I do it? I don't fancy detraining countless systems over winter by taking it easy, thanks. You have to keep pushing hard just to maintain certain levels of fitness, as I learned from taking several weeks off earlier this year.
So why do you suppose both pro and amateur racers take a complete break at the end of their seasons and then do low intensity work for a period?
They won't do only low intensity though. They'll still do intervals and threshold work, and possibly gym work too. Showing up to a race after pooitling around for 6 months is a sure fire way of going out the back immediately (I have team mates who still do this, and as a result don't get race fit till about august). I don't see why with careful preparation you can't build your threshold through interval sessions etc right through winter without burning yourself out physically or mentally.
And the data about more power being produced rowing than cycling? Doesn't seem very valid since rowers use their full body (legs, back, arms etc)
I don't disagree at all... I'm doing hte same myself, out of 9 hours a week i'm doing at the moment, 1 to 1 and a half hours will be at taht 85%-90% aerobic threshold level. What i'm saying is that the rest of the week is purely base level riding and gym work and that I see no benefit in constantly trying, as Bhima seems to be, to work out what my absolute maximum effort is, especially if i'm aiming to be competetive in 6 months time.
What Bhima doesn't seem to get is that if he rests / does base then does max efforts maybe once or twice a week, those max efforts will be better/higher...0 -
My pacing is currently crap and, as i've mentioned before, it needs sorting out if I want to do some effective power tests. Other than that, it's just experimentation. Maybe I NEED to burn out and find my breaking point because at the moment have no idea where it is. :? It appears I can go harder than I previously thought which is an exciting idea. It appearws i've been lazy when going hard on the road, probably due to variable terrain and not being able to stay focussed. Although there's a massive ammount of suffering involved, i'm finding the whole process "fun".disgruntledgoat wrote:I see no benefit in constantly trying, as Bhima seems to be, to work out what my absolute maximum effort is
Also, it seems i've given the wrong impression here - i'm not doing these crazy maximal efforts day in day out. I'm leaving recovery time NapD.
I plan to compete in 3 months time. Again, this is where I get confused - what kind of intervals leave you physically drained for a 3 month period? What power output would need such a recovery? 2x20s @ 100000W? This is more of a mental barrier I think - you think going too hard is counterproductive because you'll lose the will to continue at such a hard pace when the season actually starts?disgruntledgoat wrote:especially if i'm aiming to be competetive in 6 months time.0 -
Bhima wrote:
My pacing is currently crap and, as i've mentioned before, it needs sorting out if I want to do some effective power tests. Other than that, it's just experimentation. Maybe I NEED to burn out and find my breaking point because at the moment have no idea where it is. :? It appears I can go harder than I previously thought which is an exciting idea. Although there's a massive ammount of suffering involved, i'm finding the whole process "fun".disgruntledgoat wrote:I see no benefit in constantly trying, as Bhima seems to be, to work out what my absolute maximum effort is
Also, it seems i've given the wrong impression here - i'm not doing these crazy maximal efforts day in day out. I'm leaving recovery time NapD.
I plan to compete in 3 months time. Again, this is where I get confused - what kind of intervals leave you physically drained for a 3 month period? What power output would need such a recovery? 2x20s @ 100000W? This is more of a mental barrier I think - you think going too hard is counterproductive because you'll lose the will to continue at such a hard pace when the season actually starts?disgruntledgoat wrote:especially if i'm aiming to be competetive in 6 months time.
You gave the impression, no, in fact you actually said, that you were going flat out every day...
Bhima, play it smart and you won't just be competitive in RRs next season you will be winning them. At your current claimed power to weight ratio you have every chance of flying up to Elite in a couple of seasons or less.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:
You gave the impression, no, in fact you actually said, that you were going flat out every day...
Every day i'm on the rollers, yes. I only use them twice a week max...
Also - you mention power to weight ratio - the last test I did was really dodgy with fluctuations in power. I can't do a decent FTP hour to find my current level because my pacing is awful, hence these tests.0 -
Bhima wrote:NapoleonD wrote:
You gave the impression, no, in fact you actually said, that you were going flat out every day...
Every day i'm on the rollers, yes. I only use them twice a week max...
Also - you mention power to weight ratio - the last test I did was really dodgy with fluctuations in power. I can't do a decent FTP hour to find my current level because my pacing is awful, hence these tests.
Come round to my place
We'll do a Coggan test...
Then we can work something out regards zones and pacing and sh1t...0
