New SPDs, perhaps not the best for technical trails?
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Quite possibly. When I was trying to use every ounce of power on a mountain bike, I was slipping the rear wheel, but that's because I was trying to get up a steep, slippery, muddy hill somewhere.Alex wrote:Mr Hoy would disagree, I'm quite sure.
On a road bike, the traction is more consistent, so I can imagine you may very well notice a bigger benefit there.
SPD shoes also have much stiffer sole/pedal interfaces than flats, which in the case of someone like Chris Hoy, could make the difference between winning or not.
For professionals, looking to eek out every last nanosecond of performance, I can see there might be an advantage. But for us mere mortals (and Alex), the chances are that other things will be making more of an impact than what kind of pedals you have.
That's how I see it anwyay.
(and before anyone gets on their high-horse, I'm not advocating that everyone should be on flats. Use what you're comfortable with, just don't let yourself get pressured into one or the other)0 -
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Oops! iz now fixesbails87 wrote:
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go away for a few months and nothing has moved on. :P
ride with what you like and dont ride with stuff you dont like.
spend as much and as little on your kit as you like
its a hobby we are supposed to be haveing fun out there.
so SPD or flats are both great as it means you are out on the bike for a ride.
as for the bunny hop with flats it is the right way of doing it and if you cant you are doing it wrong and need to look at some how 2 vids as doing and spd hop is a great way to lose some front teeth.Nothing in life can not be improved with either monkeys, pirates or ninjas
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Bikerbaboon wrote:go away for a few months and nothing has moved on. :P
ride with what you like and dont ride with stuff you dont like.
spend as much and as little on your kit as you like
its a hobby we are supposed to be haveing fun out there.
so SPD or flats are both great as it means you are out on the bike for a ride.
as for the bunny hop with flats it is the right way of doing it and if you cant you are doing it wrong and need to look at some how 2 vids as doing and spd hop is a great way to lose some front teeth.
Or crush your nads - I unclipped in mid flight with SPDs on (without meaning to) and landed right on the top tube - ouch.0 -
it all depends on the riding you do.
if your into xc or trail centers then i would use spd's all days long, but i like natural single track and making/finding trails where you may have to push your bike or carry it wich tend to be a pain trying to climb up a stony bank while tap dancing with spds and getting them caked in crap and rocks so they dont work correctly.
i will use mainly 5/10 flats for winter and spd's for summer but will use spd's if i know where im going like a trail center ect.0 -
i recon the learning curve takes a few months to get used too spds and most people are just not prepared to put up with that. i fell off a few times but i stuck at it.0
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ive used spd's for a few years but i wouldnt loose any sleep if i had to use just flats from now on.0
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i bought a scott scale 40 back in 2004 and that came equipped with spds, it was the first time i had seen them on an mtb and i have been using the same type (shimano m520) ever since.0
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Alex wrote:Advertising has nothing to do with it. Once you've ridden with sticky soled shoes you can't go back to skate shoes. The difference is incredible.
[edit]I've just realised that you ride a Marin. This explains a lot.
I'm sure you didn't want to come across as a bell end, but unfortunately you did 0 -
if spd's were so much better than flats no one would ever sell a flat pedal or shoe ever again.
you see pleanty of people wearing flat shoes and pedals.
its horses for courses.0 -
Horses don't use SPDs on any courses that I know of.0
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Well this post took off a bit more than I thought it would !
Many thanks to all for feedback and opinion. I think the main thing is just for me to get out more on my bike and use the SPDs more and more until I've given them enough of a go to form a proper opinion. Then I'll just use what I feel comfortable with for the ride ahead.
Cheers again0 -
thats the only way you will find out.
give them a few weeks.0 -
Alex, You were pretty quick to demand a source when Ride_Whenever disagreed with your "power of 2" comment, so I assume you have a source to back it up, right?
Alex wrote:Once you've ridden with sticky soled shoes you can't go back to skate shoes.
I did. I have a pair of 5 10s which I rarely wear, most of the time I wear perfectly ordinary Vans (which have the dot sole, not the waffle sole, IMO it's better- just that magazines and forums always recommend the waffles for whatever reason).
They're less grippy, it just doesn't matter as they still have more than enough- the only time i ever lose a pedal is when I screw up, ie I physically lose contact. That's served me fine everywhere from canal paths to Fort William and Innerleithen DH. Oh, and on cheap pedals too My MG1s only cost £20 but they outperform many expensive ones. I only wear the 5 10s now when I want a comfort blanket- I wore them at Kirroughtree because I knew I'd be tired and prone to mistakes by the end, for instance. I wore them for my first run at Fort Bill as well but the next day changed back to the Vans. Uncompromising extremist0 -
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_o ... fcbe9e6ecd
Summary
Purpose.
The purpose of this study was to compare the mechanical parameters measured on a non-isokinetic cycle ergometer equiped with or without toe-clip pedals during sprinting.
Methods.
Two groups of subjects (international-national and regional cyclists) performed four sprints of 8 seconds with two different friction forces applied to the belt (0.5 or 1.1 N.kg−1). A variance analysis with repeated measures (shoe-pedal linkages and groups) has been performed.
Results.
The results show a significant increase of the maximal values of force, velocity and power output when clip-less pedals were used, whatever the friction force applied.
Conclusions.
This improvement of maximal power could be attributed to a significant increase in optimal velocity, which was observed for both considerable and minimal friction force. In fact, clipless pedals allowed a greater muscular activity, a greater efficiency index, and better muscular coordination.
Bottom line: Under high load, being tied to the pedals gives vastly more power and efficiency than flat pedals.
I'd also postulate that you can't spin nearly as well on flats as on clips.0 -
For sprints of 8 seconds, and no numbers. Keep trying Uncompromising extremist0
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The numbers are in the full report, which is available to purchase if you wish.
I suspect the length of sprint has more to do with objectivity and consistency than being a replication of circumstance. A cycling spring might last for several minutes, but you couldn't ask the athlete to repeat that several times in the same day.0 -
Maybe that's why I preferred flats - because my rides last more than 8 seconds. Yes, even the uphills. 0
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I actually reckon that a sprint time of 8 seconds is fairly applicable to technical riding, if you think about it. Unless you're riding fireroad, XC is usually very stop-start on the power.0
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Gotta disagree with that too.
What's the opposite phrase for "sorry to dissapoint"?0 -
Alex wrote:I actually reckon that a sprint time of 8 seconds is fairly applicable to technical riding, if you think about it. Unless you're riding fireroad, XC is usually very stop-start on the power.
that is a fair point.
When I ride technical uphills I nearly always have to slam the power down to get over sections, not sure if I last a full 8 seconds but the burst in acceleration is definatly helped by my SPDs. I don't have a problem with spinning out when using SPDs, but then I have also adapted my riding technique to deal with the bursts in pace.
IMO SPDs have the edge...
However, I will point out before anyone throws the toys from their prams (I'm looking at you here yeehaa...) this might also have to do with my riding style - which as everyone knows is personal, my riding location - which is different for many people, and my past experiences with both types of pedals.Not really active0 -
Alex wrote:I actually reckon that a sprint time of 8 seconds is fairly applicable to technical riding, if you think about it. Unless you're riding fireroad, XC is usually very stop-start on the power.
Yeah, totally agree with that, quick burst up a slope is usually less than that in fact. Likewise quick bursts of power out of corners etc. But still, this study doesn't really have a lot of relevance to typical riders, was my point.
I was trying- and failing- to find the 2 studies which indicated that you don't add power with the upstroke- instead, all you do is unweight the back pedal and remove a power loss, but none of the athletes in the test added power with the upstroke. Found lots of people referring to it but no actual links. Quite disappointing :P I've read one of them in detail so I know it exists, but that's no good. (they had one rider exactly replicate the SPD results on flats, by lifting the rear in the same way- as it was only unweighting rather than actually lifting, he didn't lose contact. But none of the other riders could do it.)Uncompromising extremist0 -
Naw, national wind up the easily wound up guy day
SPD/Flats wise, I know when I'm gating in 4X, there's a big difference there, you do get a much better snap on clips. Ditto BMX racing. No-one at the olympics was on flats.
Sprinting on the road, i know clips are a fairly decent amount better than flats. Ditto general road riding. No-one's ever ridden the Tour on flats.
Riding/racing XC, I know clips are a better choice for me than flats. When it gets really steep and you dig in properly, the difference between just mashing flats and powering through with clips is vast. You really can put more force through the leading foot than you can if you couldn't pull against the opposing pedal. It's like having more gears.
Riding DH and techy trail that isn't quite XC, well, flats please. Just feels more natural.
Something else worth bearing in mind is that the clipless pedal has been around just a little bit longer than the platform. Bizarre eh?
http://www.speedplay.com/index.cfm?fuse ... me.history
In other words, this argument's been going for 115 years. :shock:0 -
Alex wrote:Sprinting on the road, i know clips are a fairly decent amount better than flats. Ditto general road riding. No-one's ever ridden the Tour on flats.
Riding/racing XC, I know clips are a better choice for me than flats. When it gets really steep and you dig in properly, the difference between just mashing flats and powering through with clips is vast.
Tour's not a very useful example of course since there's not very many technical challenges- road racers get upset if there's tramlines or potholes to negotiate. So they get all of the advantages with none of the potential disadvantages. I don't think there's any real comparison between professional road racing and recreational or even semi-serious mtb riding (or for that matter, I don't think that professional mtb riding is the same thing as what most of us would call our riding- what works for the best doesn't always transfer.
Thing with flats is, you're not restricted to "just mashing"... I'm stuck with flats for now because of my knee, but some of the techniques people think are restricted to flats- spinning big circles, unweighting the rear- do work with flats as well. It's just not as easy. Having said that I think maybe the average "I hate SPDs" flats user would find this pretty difficult to put into practice, I don't know if I could have learned it on flats myself, but transferring it from SPDs works for me.Uncompromising extremist0 -
It does *kinda* work, but you can't really fully unweight your trailing foot on the trail or else it would bounce off the pedal, so there's always going to be a loss there.
I wouldn't want to learn to spin on flats, i reckon you'd be putting your knee into the stem/bars every 20 seconds.0 -
I have read a couple of reports that showed across a group of 'average' cyclists, SPDs were less efficient overall, and above about 100 RPM the pull up effect was not noticable.
I shall try and find them.0 -
Alex wrote:It does *kinda* work, but you can't really fully unweight your trailing foot on the trail or else it would bounce off the pedal, so there's always going to be a loss there.
Yeah, I reckon so, but then do most SPD users do any better? I try and have the back foot just loose at the ankle so there's contact but little weight, but tbh it's a bugger to do Half the time I'd sooner just be inefficient, but then, I was lazy on SPDs as well. Uncompromising extremist0 -
I can see why a high cadence would eliminate the pulling effect. There's a lot of leg to change direction quite quickly...
I've just had a change of heart for downhill btw. Clips. Skinsuits. Bullet. Much faster that way :P
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