New SPDs, perhaps not the best for technical trails?

pmsansom

I've just got myself a pair of SPDs as starting to do more and more mountainbiking and it seemed like the next step. First ride out last weekend was a short blast round the local woods. Today, second time out I ventured out to Haldon Forest near Exeter for a go on their red trail.
I've not done any riding like this before and it was great fun and completely different to what I'm used to. However, not sure it was the place to take SPDs for only the second time. I had a couple of dodgy (and almost embarassing moments) but thankfully didn't actually fall over. I'm thinking though that it should be flats for like tricky trail riding, and then clipless for longer events/rides that aren't too technical. Any opinions, or am I just not good enough with my SPDs (or mountain bike) yet??

Shorty12

Pratice makes perfect and it's also what you feel comfortable with

Anonymous

Don't feel pressured to use SPDs at all. It's all personal preference.

Northwind

Also, practice makes perfect...

Some people do find that SPDs help them commit- if you've got flats it's quite easy to think "It doesn't matter if I fail, I can just dab" which can mentally set you up to accept failing. But that's definately a YMMV, I used to do that a bit but now I don't think it has that negative effect for me. Hard to say. It does mean I'm happy to take on things which I really expect to have problems with though, which often wouldn't be the case when I was on SPDs.

All personal preference really, what works for one person might not work for another. Certainly take the "SPDs are better" or "Flats are better" arguments with a pinch of salt, everyone thinks that what they like is best, not many people are happy to admit that what they prefer isn't neccesarily the mutt's nuts.

Alex

Horses for courses.

I ride clips for XC and flats for DH.

However, there are downhill courses where I clip in, and when I went to Mabie last time, I rode flats so that I could do the Dark Side.

Neither is better than the other, but there are certain facts that you might want to take into account:

1. When it comes to power and efficiency, clips are superior by a factor of two at least.

2. Clips make imexperieced riders more insecure

3. Flats make inexperienced riders more confident as they feel they can dab at any time

4. A greater variety of technical footwear is available for clipless use than for flat pedal use.


If you do choose to use flats, don't just use cheap pedals and don't use skate shoes. Shinpads are not an alternative to keeping your feet on the platforms, regardless of how many people seem to think they are.

joec1

i took mine on the Fodca (apparently a red trail too) for their second time offroad. and found as long as the clips were loose so you could put foot down easy then things were fine. im really benefiting from the climbs with them (i ride XC) stick at it mate and you will feel the rewards.

Joe

joshtp

iv just started using pd's, and actually preffer them for technical, i feel more " in tune" with the bike/ but as said, its all personall pref.

Anonymous

Alex wrote:

If you do choose to use flats, don't just use cheap pedals and don't use skate shoes.

I've been using Wellgo V8 copies for years, and Vans waffle-treads with absolutely no problem. I have never, not once, thought, "hmm, I could do with something a bit grippier".

Alex

Waffle pattern vans are OK and wellgo v8 copies (with real pins, not moulded pins) are fairly decent, but getting a good waffle pattern skate shoe these days is not as easy as it used to be. Skate shoes with other tread patterns or "grippy" trainers are just terrible for use on flat pedals.

If you're a dedicated flat pedal rider, it's really worth getting some good quality shoes that are designed for the purpose. If you're a downhill rider on flats and you're not using 5.10s or equivalents, then my only question would be "Why?"

Anonymous

Because...
I've never been left wanting more grip from my vans
When I buy a new pair of vans, I retire the old ones to MTB use
That means I have LOTS of riding shoes
I can't justify buying a pair of shoes specifically for riding - I won't be swayed by ads.

Jenks66

Would not ride technicall without SPD's now feel so much secure
Run very low release preasure and my cleats are worn so easy to release
love the secure feeling on the downhill.

Alex

Advertising has nothing to do with it. Once you've ridden with sticky soled shoes you can't go back to skate shoes. The difference is incredible.

[edit]I've just realised that you ride a Marin. This explains a lot.

Yukon Lad

i prefer flats by far, i would maybe consider using them for xc but never for dh, i know people who ride dh with clip-ins and they are still rapid on them but its all down to personal choice, i jsut feel that you can get a lot looser on the track and push yourself further with the knowledge you can dab if you feel like you're going to wash out, i would certainly never recommend clipless pedals to a beginner

Yukon Lad

Anonymous

Alex wrote:

[edit]I've just realised that you ride a Marin. This explains a lot.

I've just realised you're a dickhead. that explains a lot.

Alex

Normally I'd make an SPD sandal comment, but as you're a dedicated flat pedal rider:





Do you have a map board?

Anonymous

Nope.
Time for your nap time I think. Maybe you've been eating to many sugary sweets. Silly little child.

Alex

Whatever granddad. Don't break a hip.

Anonymous

Alex wrote:

Whatever granddad. Don't break a hip.

Would you prefer if I broke some of your bones?

Alex

And with that comment you just any and all credibility. I mean really, threatening physical violence over the internet.

ride_whenever

Alex wrote:

1. When it comes to power and efficiency, clips are superior by a factor of two at least.

2. Clips make imexperieced riders more insecure

3. Flats make inexperienced riders more confident as they feel they can dab at any time

4. A greater variety of technical footwear is available for clipless use than for flat pedal use.

I dispute all of these...

1. A factor of two? BS, particularly considering that if you look at pressure on the pedals top pro's rarely pull up on them, merely float the upwards foot up and over the top. Plus I cannot double my power output simply by changing my footwear.

2. Eeeeerm, take someone like yeehaa, who rides flats, but is probably relatively experienced, and stick him on spds, i doubt he'd be terribly happy. People are secure in what they know. There are plenty of novice riders who massively prefer their spd,s because it makes some technical maneuvers much easier (for example bunnyhops)

3. The same as 2 with a die hard spd user.

4. That's just not true, you do have fewer bike-specific shoes designed for flats, but there are a lot of technical shoes out there that work very well. I have three different pairs that i use regularly depending on the conditions, one gore-tex, one regular and some sandals that are more vented than most top end road shoes.

Anonymous

Alex wrote:

And with that comment you just any and all credibility. I mean really, threatening physical violence over the internet.

I never pretended to have any credibility in the first place. Actually, neither did you, but you seemed to believe you did.
You're the one handing crap information out like some sort of self-assigned genius.

Alex

ride_whenever wrote:

Alex wrote:

1. When it comes to power and efficiency, clips are superior by a factor of two at least.

2. Clips make inexperieced riders more insecure

3. Flats make inexperienced riders more confident as they feel they can dab at any time

4. A greater variety of technical footwear is available for clipless use than for flat pedal use.

I dispute all of these...

1. A factor of two? BS, particularly considering that if you look at pressure on the pedals top pro's rarely pull up on them, merely float the upwards foot up and over the top. Plus I cannot double my power output simply by changing my footwear.

What's your source there? Cyclists have been trained for donkeys years to trace circles with their feet whilst tied into the pedals, exerting the most power all the way through the revolution of the cranks, not just on the two downstrokes. In reality, not only can you pull up on the pedal and increase your power, but in pulling up, you can also push down harder on the leading foot. It's a big difference to just stomping flats. I say at least two and I fully mean that.

2. Eeeeerm, take someone like yeehaa, who rides flats, but is probably relatively experienced, and stick him on spds, i doubt he'd be terribly happy. People are secure in what they know. There are plenty of novice riders who massively prefer their spd,s because it makes some technical maneuvers much easier (for example bunnyhops)

Very few inexperienced riders start out on clips. It's generally something people either arrive on from a road background, or graduate up to. Almost everyone's familiar with flats from childhood and when faced with a tricky bit of trail where riders are uncertain of their abilities, they tend to either want to be on flats or if they're clipped in, they clip out.

3. The same as 2 with a die hard spd user.

As 2, die SPD riders tend not to be too inexperienced, they also tend to have a better measure of what they will/won't do. "I'm not riding that because i'm clipped in".

4. That's just not true, you do have fewer bike-specific shoes designed for flats, but there are a lot of technical shoes out there that work very well. I have three different pairs that i use regularly depending on the conditions, one gore-tex, one regular and some sandals that are more vented than most top end road shoes.

By technical footwear I mean stuff that's designed with a cycling in mind, ie, lace covers, stuff that doesn't mind if you douse it in mud. Sure there are plenty of shoes in the world, but you're not going to get far down the hill in walking boots.

Surf-Matt

Blimey - amazingly out of hand thread!

I hated them for ages (had them for 2 years - had two bad crashes thanks to them) but finally relented and got some XT ones - they are now much improved.

I just unclip and "cover" if I think I might stop/slip/fall off.

Anonymous

ride_whenever wrote:

2. Eeeeerm, take someone like yeehaa, who rides flats, but is probably relatively experienced, and stick him on spds, i doubt he'd be terribly happy. People are secure in what they know. There are plenty of novice riders who massively prefer their spd,s because it makes some technical maneuvers much easier (for example bunnyhops)

I actually rode SPDs for several years. I used to have those big red Shimano DX SPDs, which were indestructible. I bought them, so I could still ride my bike to school or to the shops without having to wear "special needs" shoes (all the SPD shoes I could find at the time looked bloody awful - things have moved on a lot since then)

However, I soon realised that those particular pedals were completely useless when not clipped in, the powder coating was like greased ice as soon as you mentioned the word "wet" in their vicinity.
So.. seeing as I couldn't ride the bike without SPD shoes anyway, I eventually replaced them with a series of smaller, lightweight SPD pedals.

But, as my fad for SPDs died down, I realised that they offered little real-world benefit. I didn't need to generate any more power than I already could with flats, and if I did, I only ended up losing traction. I also never really liked the "float" effect, where your feet can move around on the pedal whilst clipped in.

So, I moved back to flats, and never looked back.

I guess I only really switched to SPDs because I was led to believe that they were the "greatest thing since sliced bread" - I was pretty impressionable back then, and I'd fall for any olf marketing guff, like Alex seems to.
But yeah, I did ride SPDs almost exclusively for about 4, maybe 5 years - and I did the whole "oh man, you gotta get some SPDs, they're great" thing like quite a few people here do.

As for 5:10s, I can fully believe that they'd offer more grip, but since I've never slipped a pedal, I really don't "need" them and it would be a pointless expense.

Surf-Matt

If anyone thinks SPDs are a magic solution to cycling, they are wrong.

They have benefits but also drawbacks - which is why I rode platforms for 8 years. I'd still put them back on for some types of riding.

I think as with most MTB kit, some stuff works for some, some for others. Those that think their way is the ONLY way are the ones who lose out. And look stupid. And smell.

Alex

yeehaamcgee wrote:

I'd fall for any olf marketing guff, like Alex seems to.

I'm quite careful where my money goes thank you. I'm far more likely to listen to people who own the stuff already than anything cooked up in a marketing department. When I do find that something isn't as good as reviewers/marketeers said it was, you can rest assured i'll be the first to say so.

If I was a marketing fan, I'd riding DH with one of those ridiculous neck braces and using next year's forks and brakes with a million pound Cane Creek rear shock. I don't. All of the kit on all of my bikes is tried and tested and is the best possible mix of reliability to lightness/strength.

bails87

I'm sure there was study that's been linked too several times on these kinds of threads where they measured the output on flats vs SPDs.

The conclusion was that there was a small increase in efficiency, but it came from riders lifting their foot up, rather than pulling the pedal up, if you see what I mean.

So the rider 'unweighted' the pedal that was moving upwards, rather than pedalled up with it. So the force going through the pedal whilst it was on the upstroke was NOT the same as if the rider only had one leg(!), and was properly 'pedalling' through the whole circle of the stroke while clipped in. The reason flats users don't do this so much is because if you get it wrong then your foot comes completely off the pedal.

Surf-Matt

If you ride only SPDs, I reckon you end up riding badly. If you can't bunnyhop without SPDs then you can't bunnyhop, same with other "stunts" and tricks.

But if you can ride on flats and can put up with the odd compromise, SPDs are good. I don't "pull" my pedals and have done fine in a "proper" MTB race on flats - so I reckon the efficiency difference is so small that it's hardly worth mentioning.

Alex

Mr Hoy would disagree, I'm quite sure.

Sarnian

Alex wrote:

ride_whenever wrote:

Alex wrote:

1. When it comes to power and efficiency, clips are superior by a factor of two at least.

2. Clips make inexperieced riders more insecure

3. Flats make inexperienced riders more confident as they feel they can dab at any time

4. A greater variety of technical footwear is available for clipless use than for flat pedal use.

I dispute all of these...

1. A factor of two? BS, particularly considering that if you look at pressure on the pedals top pro's rarely pull up on them, merely float the upwards foot up and over the top. Plus I cannot double my power output simply by changing my footwear.

What's your source there? Cyclists have been trained for donkeys years to trace circles with their feet whilst tied into the pedals, exerting the most power all the way through the revolution of the cranks, not just on the two downstrokes. In reality, not only can you pull up on the pedal and increase your power, but in pulling up, you can also push down harder on the leading foot. It's a big difference to just stomping flats. I say at least two and I fully mean that.

2. Eeeeerm, take someone like yeehaa, who rides flats, but is probably relatively experienced, and stick him on spds, i doubt he'd be terribly happy. People are secure in what they know. There are plenty of novice riders who massively prefer their spd,s because it makes some technical maneuvers much easier (for example bunnyhops)

Very few inexperienced riders start out on clips. It's generally something people either arrive on from a road background, or graduate up to. Almost everyone's familiar with flats from childhood and when faced with a tricky bit of trail where riders are uncertain of their abilities, they tend to either want to be on flats or if they're clipped in, they clip out.

3. The same as 2 with a die hard spd user.

As 2, die SPD riders tend not to be too inexperienced, they also tend to have a better measure of what they will/won't do. "I'm not riding that because i'm clipped in".

4. That's just not true, you do have fewer bike-specific shoes designed for flats, but there are a lot of technical shoes out there that work very well. I have three different pairs that i use regularly depending on the conditions, one gore-tex, one regular and some sandals that are more vented than most top end road shoes.

By technical footwear I mean stuff that's designed with a cycling in mind, ie, lace covers, stuff that doesn't mind if you douse it in mud. Sure there are plenty of shoes in the world, but you're not going to get far down the hill in walking boots.

1, I find I can still get a pretty good circular motion and put down even power through the revolution with flats and good shoes, and yes I have used spd's as well as flats.

rapid_uphill

i ride spds i would never go back to flats