Comtat - new british company

Escargot

will75 wrote:

A few words about making frame sin the UK, Steel and thats it.
It cracks me up when people bang on about 'it should be made in the UK' if it was you'd moaning about how expensive it was, llok at half the shoot you wear, use and buy, it isn't made in the UK, sad but true.
You want a nice lugged steel frame, yep no problem.
Giant mancp, dude shut up. Guys have been building bike frames in the UK for donkeys years, Mercian, Holdsworth etc etc and they cost alot, exactly what they are worth.
As for carbon made in the far east, well if it works why not and as for a new bike company selling them albeit to there own design, good on them and good luck.

I'm not sure that's quite the case. Making things in the far east is mainly about profit margins. Goods don't necessarily have to be more expensive it's just that shareholders etc. still want the same margins.

Ultimately people will pay what they feel is right for a product irrespective of where it's made. Planet X, Ribble, Boardman etc. make fantastic value bikes but the reason the streets aren't flooded with them is because people will pay extra (and quite a lot extra in some cases) for a brand they can connect with.

But for sure, best of luck to Comtat. Personally I'm not 100% about the brand or the styling but bikes am sure they will appeal to a wide audience.

Chip \'oyler

will75 wrote:

A few words about making frame sin the UK, Steel and thats it.
It cracks me up when people bang on about 'it should be made in the UK' if it was you'd moaning about how expensive it was, llok at half the shoot you wear, use and buy, it isn't made in the UK, sad but true.
You want a nice lugged steel frame, yep no problem.
Giant mancp, dude shut up. Guys have been building bike frames in the UK for donkeys years, Mercian, Holdsworth etc etc and they cost alot, exactly what they are worth.
As for carbon made in the far east, well if it works why not and as for a new bike company selling them albeit to there own design, good on them and good luck.

Comstat have picked a business model that a lot of other companies are doing at the moment - ie importing far east carbon frames and branding them up. Nothing wrong with doing this, it's just that he's dropping himself into an already busy market.

All I said was that If I was in a position where I could start a bike company I would look at bringing something different to the marketplace - something that had different qualities and brand story.

giant_man

Chip \'oyler wrote:

will75 wrote:

A few words about making frame sin the UK, Steel and thats it.
It cracks me up when people bang on about 'it should be made in the UK' if it was you'd moaning about how expensive it was, llok at half the shoot you wear, use and buy, it isn't made in the UK, sad but true.
You want a nice lugged steel frame, yep no problem.
Giant mancp, dude shut up. Guys have been building bike frames in the UK for donkeys years, Mercian, Holdsworth etc etc and they cost alot, exactly what they are worth.
As for carbon made in the far east, well if it works why not and as for a new bike company selling them albeit to there own design, good on them and good luck.

Comstat have picked a business model that a lot of other companies are doing at the moment - ie importing far east carbon frames and branding them up. Nothing wrong with doing this, it's just that he's dropping himself into an already busy market.

All I said was that If I was in a position where I could start a bike company I would look at bringing something different to the marketplace - something that had different qualities and brand story.

That's all I was trying to get at in my posts, its just that I didn't put it the way chip has. No way will75 should get so offensive about it, geez .....

PeteinSQ

There will be a finite output capacity from the Tawainese factories which will constrain the number of frames which can be supplied to the UK market regardless of whether there are 2, 4, 6, etc importers

True, but then I wouldn't have thought that Ribble are importing the maximum number of frames being made by these factories. I'm would have thought that the constraining factor on supply from Ribble will be how quickly their mechanics can build the bikes up plus how many frames they thought it was sensible to order at the beginning of the year. Getting a resupply in the middle of the year will obviously take a while.

APIII

PeteinSQ wrote:

There will be a finite output capacity from the Tawainese factories which will constrain the number of frames which can be supplied to the UK market regardless of whether there are 2, 4, 6, etc importers

Not really. IME, far east manufacturers can get a new set of tooling made and in production in a couple of months, maybe even weeks. If it's profitable for them, they will create the capacity.

cal_stewart

i think where is a place in the market for comtat being london based, as ribble and px are a 4 hours drive north. I think they will do good business and if you think of the catchment area some big money is on the cards. In a strange way I think they have fond a gap in the market, will watch how they grow over the next couple of years. Yes it is nothing new but if something not broke why fix it.

Chip \'oyler

Cal_Stewart wrote:

i think where is a place in the market for comtat being london based, as ribble and px are a 4 hours drive north. I think they will do good business and if you think of the catchment area some big money is on the cards. In a strange way I think they have fond a gap in the market, will watch how they grow over the next couple of years. Yes it is nothing new but if something not broke why fix it.

Ribble and PX are internet based businesses - their location isn't a problem.

I don't understand your comment about catchment area? Do you mean there are a lot of people to tap into? Is this the GAP you are talking about? There is already a London based company offering understated carbon frames - Conder Cycles.

As I've said before good luck to him, but I don't think enough thought has gone into the brand and business positioning.

cal_stewart

There cheaper than condor, and people do travel to ribble and px to be sized. catchment area, large numbers of people.

plus as a business its more like px than ribble (more bikes and frames, less components)

Evil Laugh

I think their selling point will be the location as above and the styling/branding, especially in London. If they get a nicely tarted up workshop/shop somewhere in E London, for example, and with the right promotion they'll sell a lot to the more fashion influenced crowd.

They really need to get the component prices down though, and get a bike in the £1000 bracket to take some C2W money. Maybe sell at minimal /no profit for a while until orders increase, brand grows and they can order more/get costs down.

On the bike builder you don't really save anything except the building cost, you can buy most if not all of the parts cheaper from other online retailers.

MrChuck

PeteinSQ wrote:

I don't really get the idea behind these brands that set up cycling clubs to be honest. Rapha have one and Whitcomb cycles tried/did(?) to set one up too.

Who joins them? I'm a member of my local club and would have thought that was the obvious thing to do?

I thought it was the other way round in this case- the brand followed on from the club?

cal_stewart

Evil Laugh wrote:

I think their selling point will be the location as above and the styling/branding, especially in London. If they get a nicely tarted up workshop/shop somewhere in E London, for example, and with the right promotion they'll sell a lot to the more fashion influenced crowd.

They really need to get the component prices down though, and get a bike in the £1000 bracket to take some C2W money. Maybe sell at minimal /no profit for a while until orders increase, brand grows and they can order more/get costs down.

On the bike builder you don't really save anything except the building cost, you can buy most if not all of the parts cheaper from other online retailers.

spot on. the campag sr's a good price but wheels are a lot.

I'm side tracking here but was on condors site and the pic of their Baracchi bike in blue has to be classed as a war crime

Pross

Just done a trial build using Shimano 105, Fulcrum 7's plus some decent components and it came to over £2,200 which seems quite pricey in comparison to Ribble or PX.

Chip \'oyler

Pross wrote:

Just done a trial build using Shimano 105, Fulcrum 7's plus some decent components and it came to over £2,200 which seems quite pricey in comparison to Ribble or PX.

I doubt he'll have the buying power of them two (not yet anyway)

PeteinSQ

If I buy from him I intend to buy frame only and use my existing parts. Could possibly buy one of his fancy bars though.

I thought it was the other way round in this case- the brand followed on from the club?

I think you're right although I'm not sure how long the club was going and/or if the bikes were always part of the plan.

cal_stewart

Pross wrote:

Just done a trial build using Shimano 105, Fulcrum 7's plus some decent components and it came to over £2,200 which seems quite pricey in comparison to Ribble or PX.

I love a good p@ss take. DECENT = TOP OF THE RANGE

Plus we're cutting there need for a advertising budget

Aggieboy

Chip \'oyler wrote:

Cal_Stewart wrote:

i think where is a place in the market for comtat being london based, as ribble and px are a 4 hours drive north. I think they will do good business and if you think of the catchment area some big money is on the cards. In a strange way I think they have fond a gap in the market, will watch how they grow over the next couple of years. Yes it is nothing new but if something not broke why fix it.

Ribble and PX are internet based businesses - their location isn't a problem.

I don't understand your comment about catchment area? Do you mean there are a lot of people to tap into? Is this the GAP you are talking about? There is already a London based company offering understated carbon frames - Conder Cycles.

As I've said before good luck to him, but I don't think enough thought has gone into the brand and business positioning.

No need to travel of course, as you can see/get fitted for PX in London. Not only that, they come with Campag and can be cheaper than PX as they are supplied built for £999. So it's a win,win all round.

JonEdwards

For those bemoaning the lack of UK-made production frames - it's not actaully just about cost.

A good mate of mine is Cy from Cotic mountainbikes. When he started (5? years) ago he really wanted to get his frames made in the UK. You know what? No-one was interested. The custom builders like Roberts etc weren't interested in doing small batch work. General light engineering cos weren't interested in investing any money in the tooling or the skills to make bikes.

So he talked to Taiwan instead, who went "yes sir, no sir, when do you want them sir". At which point Taiwan got the business.

Sorry to say the UK no longer has a manufacturing industry, and it's (partially) it's own damn fault for not being flexible and WANTING business.

Chip \'oyler

JonEdwards wrote:

For those bemoaning the lack of UK-made production frames - it's not actaully just about cost.

A good mate of mine is Cy from Cotic mountainbikes. When he started (5? years) ago he really wanted to get his frames made in the UK. You know what? No-one was interested. The custom builders like Roberts etc weren't interested in doing small batch work. General light engineering cos weren't interested in investing any money in the tooling or the skills to make bikes.

So he talked to Taiwan instead, who went "yes sir, no sir, when do you want them sir". At which point Taiwan got the business.

Sorry to say the UK no longer has a manufacturing industry, and it's (partially) it's own damn fault for not being flexible and WANTING business.

That's interesting. I always thought they were built in the UK (nice frames BTW). We really need the existing framebuilders (Bob Jackson, Mercian, Brian Rourke) to hopefully have an apprentice system - so skilled UK framebuilders don't die out.

balthazar

Baroque typefaces are so over. And the website copy needs an editor.

eh

I doubt it is the likes of Roberts not wanting the custom it is more that they don't want to churn out a load of stock frames for someone else, it doesn't fit their business model.

There is a lot of manufacturing left in the UK, just not much bulk stuff, the UK has moved into high end, high tech.

I don't think the UK needs to worry about losing the skills required to weld 2 bits of pipe together, plenty of people can do that, backed up by quality R&D at TWI.

JonEdwards

Thing is - it's not just "welding 2 bits of pipe together".

Joining bike tubing (i'm told) is actually a pretty skilled business because it's so thin walled - your average welder will just blow a hole straight through it.

...and if something "doesn't fit your business model", but there's good money to be made within the same business, why not *change* your business model...? We're not talking 1000s of frames here - 20 or 30 at a time. It just seems very short sighted to just go "no we won't do that". What would the UK bike industry be like if all the made-in-the-far-east niche brands were made in the UK instead. That's actually quite a lot of cash there...

softlad

JonEdwards wrote:

Joining bike tubing (i'm told) is actually a pretty skilled business because it's so thin walled - your average welder will just blow a hole straight through it.

Depends what you mean by average. You or I might blow a hole in it, but a properly trained and BS qualified welder should be more than capable of sticking anything together without issue.

graham_g

I love the assertion that getting frames in the far east is all about profit margins - hysterical. No sir, the profit margins have stayed roughly the same for donkeys years, but you might have noticed that the price of bikes has been coming down for years and years too.... as a result of cheaper overseas manufacture. Honestly, it's not that difficult to understand is it?!

Takis61

Good luck to them - they will survive or not, market will decide.
And yes, we all want a top of the range dream Colnago or whatever, but most of us have to buy on price.
I used Ribble & was very happy with the service & the machine, BUT if these guys had been in operation I may well have travelled to see them (I'm in the SE).
Who knows, their long term game plan may well be to offer custom build in the future, but every business has to start somewhere & importing/building is an established business model.
Setting up a factory & employing craftsmen from scratch would be an enormously expensive endeavour, assuming you could get the funding.

JonEdwards

but a properly trained and BS qualified welder should be more than capable of sticking anything together without issue.

That's precisely the issue. They're not. Have a look on the MTBR frame building forum for more on this.

APIII

Graham G wrote:

I love the assertion that getting frames in the far east is all about profit margins - hysterical. No sir, the profit margins have stayed roughly the same for donkeys years, but you might have noticed that the price of bikes has been coming down for years and years too.... as a result of cheaper overseas manufacture. Honestly, it's not that difficult to understand is it?!

Sorry, I don't buy that at all. A top of the range (Italian made) Pinarello 7 years ago was £1500. The recently released Dogma is £3,500. Even with a generous rate of 4% inflation, that £1500 frame is only £2,000 in today's money. So what's the reason, manufacturing costs or profit margins? I know what I think

timmyflash

Do people think they're actually going to be good bikes?

You know, beyond the questions about the business model / logo / name...

Or is it a case of, they're all quality parts, so there's no way it will be rubbish?

Coming from someone who is looking for a 'proper' first road bike, and at the very least, like the look of these.

Chip \'oyler

timmyflash wrote:

Do people think they're actually going to be good bikes?

You know, beyond the questions about the business model / logo / name...

Or is it a case of, they're all quality parts, so there's no way it will be rubbish?

Coming from someone who is looking for a 'proper' first road bike, and at the very least, like the look of these.

Who knows? That will only be answered when test rides/reviews are done OR when or if you get to have a test ride on one yourself. And the problem with that is that if it's your first road bike then you won't have a 'benchmark' to refer to.

Pross

APIII wrote:

Graham G wrote:

I love the assertion that getting frames in the far east is all about profit margins - hysterical. No sir, the profit margins have stayed roughly the same for donkeys years, but you might have noticed that the price of bikes has been coming down for years and years too.... as a result of cheaper overseas manufacture. Honestly, it's not that difficult to understand is it?!

Sorry, I don't buy that at all. A top of the range (Italian made) Pinarello 7 years ago was £1500. The recently released Dogma is £3,500. Even with a generous rate of 4% inflation, that £1500 frame is only £2,000 in today's money. So what's the reason, manufacturing costs or profit margins? I know what I think

+ 1 also the 2010 models are more expensive than 2009 despite deflation (and 2009 were more expensive than 2008). The profit margins may well be the same, I wouldn't know as I'm not in the business, but if that is the case then the frame and / or component manufacturers are charging more.

Evil Laugh

timmyflash wrote:

Do people think they're actually going to be good bikes?

Get down to http://www.cycleworx.co.uk/ and have a go.

Might pop down myself and have a look.