TT position question

DaveyL
DaveyL Posts: 5,167
edited August 2009 in Training, fitness and health
Just getting to grips with sorting out a position on my TT bike. I gather that it is a good idea to move the saddle up a little and perch yourself quite far forward if possible. My question is, should you try to maintain the same position of knee vs pedal spindle that you do for the road bike? Or is it OK to have the knee slightly ahead of the pedal spindle with the crank at 3 o'clock?
Le Blaireau (1)
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Comments

  • Bhima
    Bhima Posts: 2,145
    Some people i've seen at TTs are sitting really far forward. I mean REALLY forward - it looks uncomfortable, especially for the region "down there". Personally, I like to sit further back than normal so it's easier to stretch my body out in an aerodynamic way. If I sit forward, to get my back horizontal, my head is over the front hub! I'm using a standard road bike for TTs though.

    I don't make any adjustments for TTs/"normal" riding, as a lot of my "normal" riding is in a really aero/aggressive position anyway. I've always thought it's better to get your muscles used to riding in one position, instead of two, but i'm probably wrong, as all the professional riders do it.

    I take it you've replicated your road position on your TT bike?
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    The idea (as a starting point) is to rotate the whole body around the bottom bracket, so that you pretty much maintain similar relative position between the three contact points on the bike. Saddle forward and up (a bit) means bars come down and forward = lower head and flatter back, but similar hip angles when pedalling as your starting position.

    Of course it's not quite that simple but that is a reasonable starting point if you have a good powerful roadie position originally.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • disgruntledgoat
    disgruntledgoat Posts: 8,957
    This is what I'm finding at the moment, particularly after all the helpful advice you guys gave me. I've improved my position for flat TTs, but was training on the mountain TT course I'm targetting and noted that a good position on the flat is a really poor position for getting power down going up 8%-15% gradients!
    "In many ways, my story was that of a raging, Christ-like figure who hauled himself off the cross, looked up at the Romans with blood in his eyes and said 'My turn, sock cookers'"

    @gietvangent
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    The idea (as a starting point) is to rotate the whole body around the bottom bracket, so that you pretty much maintain similar relative position between the three contact points on the bike. Saddle forward and up (a bit) means bars come down and forward = lower head and flatter back, but similar hip angles when pedalling as your starting position.

    Of course it's not quite that simple but that is a reasonable starting point if you have a good powerful roadie position originally.

    Ah, so in that case it doesn't matter if your knee is forward of the pedal spindle (on a plumb line test) becasue a line drawn through the pedal and knee will still intersect (ideally) at the same part of the body.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    DaveyL wrote:
    Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
    The idea (as a starting point) is to rotate the whole body around the bottom bracket, so that you pretty much maintain similar relative position between the three contact points on the bike. Saddle forward and up (a bit) means bars come down and forward = lower head and flatter back, but similar hip angles when pedalling as your starting position.

    Of course it's not quite that simple but that is a reasonable starting point if you have a good powerful roadie position originally.

    Ah, so in that case it doesn't matter if your knee is forward of the pedal spindle (on a plumb line test) becasue a line drawn through the pedal and knee will still intersect (ideally) at the same part of the body.
    Well one also has to consider the limitations on position by whatever regulations apply....

    Like I said, it's a good starting place but it's not quite that simple.
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • redddraggon
    redddraggon Posts: 10,862
    Bhima wrote:
    Some people i've seen at TTs are sitting really far forward. I mean REALLY forward - it looks uncomfortable, especially for the region "down there". Personally, I like to sit further back than normal so it's easier to stretch my body out in an aerodynamic way. If I sit forward, to get my back horizontal, my head is over the front hub! I'm using a standard road bike for TTs though.

    I don't make any adjustments for TTs/"normal" riding, as a lot of my "normal" riding is in a really aero/aggressive position anyway. I've always thought it's better to get your muscles used to riding in one position, instead of two, but i'm probably wrong, as all the professional riders do it.

    I take it you've replicated your road position on your TT bike?

    Have you actually done any proper TTs?
    I like bikes...

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  • Old Tuggo
    Old Tuggo Posts: 482
    I found my TT bike quite difficult to get used to despite rotating my body forwards and that training in this position was the only way of adapting. As I am not happy training on the road in this position I put some tri-bars on my turbo trainer bike and found that I could gradually increase the time I could hold this position.
  • SBezza
    SBezza Posts: 2,173
    I am actually more comfortable on my TT bike than my road bike, certainly comfortable enough not to get numb nuts even in a 12 hr TT at the weekend. The bike was set up exactly the same as when I do a 10m TT. I would get as comfortable a position as possible, whilst getting as aero as possible. If you are not comfortable, you might find you just can't do good times.

    Training in a TT position is a good idea, as the body has to get used to the different riding position and muscles used in an aero position compared to a normal road riding position.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    Thanks for the tips - I have raised the saddle a bit (in retrospect, starting off with it 1.5 cm lower than the road bike was not a good idea) and it feels much better. Just getting some quality time spent on it will help. At the moment, I am getting a bit of fatigue in the arms and shoulders, and I have to say it is not particularly comfortable on the nads when I am perched on the nose of the saddle - though it certainly seems to allow me to put the power down. Also getting a few twinges in the glutes but that is an area of known weakness anyway, so I realise I need to work on a bit of stretching and strenghtening there.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Jeff Jones
    Jeff Jones Posts: 1,865
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream.

    I prefer riding my TT bike to my road bike because I'm so much quicker on it. The road bike is fun and handles better, but it often feels frustratingly slow.
    Jeff Jones

    Product manager, Sports
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.


    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.


    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm

    To paraphrase Dirty Harry, "At $189.95, let it hurt...." :D
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Jeff Jones
    Jeff Jones Posts: 1,865
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.

    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    Doh - should have got one in to test as I'm doing my first 100 mile TT this weekend. I'm on a Specialized BG Tritip SL Gel, which isn't too bad, but I was forced to get out of the saddle a few times during a 50 mile TT recently.
    Jeff Jones

    Product manager, Sports
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    I thought I had my TT position nailed, but I've developed a strange habit of being cr*p on the uphills relative to my road riding (where I'm normally a decent climber). Has anyone got any tips on if/how my position might be causing it and how I can tinker with it some more?
  • chriskempton
    chriskempton Posts: 1,245
    PS sorry I'm highjacking the thread aren't I :oops:
  • Old Tuggo
    Old Tuggo Posts: 482
    chriskempton wrote:
    I thought I had my TT position nailed, but I've developed a strange habit of being cr*p on the uphills relative to my road riding (where I'm normally a decent climber). Has anyone got any tips on if/how my position might be causing it and how I can tinker with it some more?
    Due to the TT position I think it is inevitable that ones hillclimbing suffers. On hills I sit up as high as I can holding the tri bar arms just in front of the arm rests and push myself to the back of the saddle. I never attempt to honk out of the saddle.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    I have found it to be pretty good on fairly shallow "power climbs" - you seem to be able to use your ar$e/lower back muscles (or that's how it feels) to really push the gear up them. Anything steeper though and the aero position seems to be no good for me - but then again I am a big lad and not much cop on anything steeper than about 6% anyway :D

    I can now look back on Jan Ullrich's Alpe d'Huez TT in 2004 with utter amazement - how he rode up there on the aero bars is beyond me.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.

    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    Doh - should have got one in to test as I'm doing my first 100 mile TT this weekend. I'm on a Specialized BG Tritip SL Gel, which isn't too bad, but I was forced to get out of the saddle a few times during a 50 mile TT recently.


    How did it go. By coincidence it was doing my first 100 with the same specialized saddle as you that convinced me to check out the Adamo.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    DaveyL wrote:
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.


    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm

    To paraphrase Dirty Harry, "At $189.95, let it hurt...." :D

    TTers spend a lot more stupid money on a lot less useful stuff, no point having the best aero position in the world if you cant hold it because your knackers are smoking.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    bahzob wrote:

    TTers spend a lot more stupid money on a lot less useful stuff, no point having the best aero position in the world if you cant hold it because your knackers are smoking.

    :D I would've said more like "uncomfortaly numb" than smoking, but I take your point!
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • Jeff Jones
    Jeff Jones Posts: 1,865
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    Doh - should have got one in to test as I'm doing my first 100 mile TT this weekend. I'm on a Specialized BG Tritip SL Gel, which isn't too bad, but I was forced to get out of the saddle a few times during a 50 mile TT recently.

    How did it go. By coincidence it was doing my first 100 with the same specialized saddle as you that convinced me to check out the Adamo.
    Not bad (2nd in 3:41:22, winner did 3:40:15), but I'm definitely going to try out an Adamo.

    I started to notice it after 50 miles - at times it was quite painful and I'd need to get out of the saddle regularly. But then I'd settle in and be fine for a while. It wasn't the limiting factor I feared it would be.

    What was worse was not having a bottle of water for the last bit. I had energy drink (half the recommended concentration) in my hydration pack, ate three zipvit gels (had another spare) but I started to feel quite queasy in the last 20 miles and lost 35W. Definitely needed that extra gel but also the water to digest it.

    Legs hurt now :)
    Jeff Jones

    Product manager, Sports
  • Old Tuggo
    Old Tuggo Posts: 482
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    Doh - should have got one in to test as I'm doing my first 100 mile TT this weekend. I'm on a Specialized BG Tritip SL Gel, which isn't too bad, but I was forced to get out of the saddle a few times during a 50 mile TT recently.

    How did it go. By coincidence it was doing my first 100 with the same specialized saddle as you that convinced me to check out the Adamo.
    Not bad (2nd in 3:41:22, winner did 3:40:15), but I'm definitely going to try out an Adamo.

    I started to notice it after 50 miles - at times it was quite painful and I'd need to get out of the saddle regularly. But then I'd settle in and be fine for a while. It wasn't the limiting factor I feared it would be.

    What was worse was not having a bottle of water for the last bit. I had energy drink (half the recommended concentration) in my hydration pack, ate three zipvit gels (had another spare) but I started to feel quite queasy in the last 20 miles and lost 35W. Definitely needed that extra gel but also the water to digest it.

    Legs hurt now :)
    Congratulations bloody good ride. I can still remember my amazement when Booty broke the 4 hour barrier.
  • Old Tuggo
    Old Tuggo Posts: 482
    bahzob wrote:
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Yep, ride on it as much as possible - your shoulders and arms will adapt. As for the undercarriage, that usually requires a bit of experimentation with different saddles and a lot of chamois cream. .

    Undercarriage can be an issue, since you cant rotate seat angle in proportion to body so tip (of seat) can make things painful. If you have this problem then the Adamo saddle might be worth checking out, it worked for me.
    http://www.ismseat.com/products_racing.htm
    On your recommendation and after reading the testimonials I have decided to lash out and buy one. It is a lot more than I would normally pay (£111.50) including postage, but hopefully it should be worth it.
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Great ride Jeff, stunning time. If you/Old Tuggo do get an Adamo hope they help. They are a bit different from normal saddles in terms of setup, theres a useful video on to help with this herehttp://www.ttbikefit.com/shop.html/#adamovid
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • Jeff Jones
    Jeff Jones Posts: 1,865
    bahzob wrote:
    Great ride Jeff, stunning time. If you/Old Tuggo do get an Adamo hope they help. They are a bit different from normal saddles in terms of setup, theres a useful video on to help with this herehttp://www.ttbikefit.com/shop.html/#adamovid
    Ta - it was hard to know what to expect, but based on my 25 and 50 mile times, I knew somewhere between 3:40 and 3:45 was doable. Interesting exercise in 'how far can I push myself before I blow. Oh, that far. Ouch.'

    Will get an Adamo in for testing asap and post a review on BR.

    And keeping this thread vaguely on track, if you're serious about TTing, you have to do as much training as possible in the position. To that end, I did two rides of 100 miles on the TT bike in the last month, so I had a reasonably good idea of what it felt like.

    Ditto any tempo/interval training. Make it as specific as possible.
    Jeff Jones

    Product manager, Sports
  • BeaconRuth
    BeaconRuth Posts: 2,086
    Many congratulations, Jeff. A fabulous first 100!

    Are you looking forward to the British TT Champs now? Should be an absolutely cracking day............

    Ruth
    http://www.rutheyles.co.uk/
  • Jeff Jones
    Jeff Jones Posts: 1,865
    BeaconRuth wrote:
    Many congratulations, Jeff. A fabulous first 100!
    Thank you Ruth - it was a good first hit out and I want to do another one now, as I felt I could improve in some areas (namely, drinking a lot more). So much more to think about and plan compared to a 10 or a 25.
    Are you looking forward to the British TT Champs now? Should be an absolutely cracking day............
    Yep, definitely. I hope Wiggo turns up - be interesting to see how close he and Hutch are. See you there!
    Jeff Jones

    Product manager, Sports
  • Alex_Simmons/RST
    Alex_Simmons/RST Posts: 4,161
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Not bad (2nd in 3:41:22, winner did 3:40:15)
    8)
    Jeff Jones wrote:
    Legs hurt now :)
    I bet they do. :)
    RST Sport : Coaching - Training Plans - Powermeters -- My blog -- AeroCoach Australia
  • love2ride
    love2ride Posts: 224
    get an adamo road saddle. The first 5 miles of the first ride you do on it hurt a lot and it feels really wide but stick to it and after a few more rides you get no numbness or pain and its perfect. Its great for getting on the tip in time trials. i highly recommend it :D
  • Old Tuggo
    Old Tuggo Posts: 482
    love2ride wrote:
    get an adamo road saddle. The first 5 miles of the first ride you do on it hurt a lot and it feels really wide but stick to it and after a few more rides you get no numbness or pain and its perfect. Its great for getting on the tip in time trials. i highly recommend it :D
    Fitted the Adamo and just rode down the avenue on it. As you say it feels really wide but I'm looking forward to trying it out properly.

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