Astarloza postive

taz3611

I was in Bourg St. Maurice and saw Astarloza win that stage. I cheered him in, without being a particular fan of his because I recognised the effort he must have put in to finish first. This positive test makes a mockery of myself and all the other people cheering. Along with ALL the others who've doped, I say one thing - 'TW&T'!!!

jamlala

As a newbie I am very saddened by all the incessant talk of doping, blood this and that levels etc. It all means nothing to me, other than it seems to be a daily topic of conversation and, dare I say it, almost an 'accepted' topic of conversation. Whilst under no illusions that other sports are also affected, it doesn't seem to be such a forefront topic of conversation other than maybe in athletics.

I'm a huge rugby fan, and yes there are issues in the sport but they appear rarely. Now you could argue that its all kept under wraps, but I played a lot of rugby and I know the types of characters there and it is all too 'honest beer drinking' I believe for drugs to be anything other than a rarity. Maybe naivety on my part but I don't think so.

In a nutshell, I don't want my fledgling interest in the sport to wane due to incessant cheating by the participants, especially those at the 'top' of the game. Otherwise I'll be gone as quickly as I arrived.

grantus

That's a real pity. Don't know why I feel a bit sorry for him as well somehow??

Maybe it's because he looked so desperate to win and the last burst he made was so good to watch.

Still, it's one less and I suppose rather than feeling sorry for him we should think about the young clean riders who are missing out on pro contracts because of guys like him :?

teagar

JamLala wrote:

As a newbie I am very saddened by all the incessant talk of doping, blood this and that levels etc. It all means nothing to me, other than it seems to be a daily topic of conversation and, dare I say it, almost an 'accepted' topic of conversation. Whilst under no illusions that other sports are also affected, it doesn't seem to be such a forefront topic of conversation other than maybe in athletics.

I'm a huge rugby fan, and yes there are issues in the sport but they appear rarely. Now you could argue that its all kept under wraps, but I played a lot of rugby and I know the types of characters there and it is all too 'honest beer drinking' I believe for drugs to be anything other than a rarity. Maybe naivety on my part but I don't think so.

In a nutshell, I don't want my fledgling interest in the sport to wane due to incessant cheating by the participants, especially those at the 'top' of the game. Otherwise I'll be gone as quickly as I arrived.

You might find it tough to stick around cycling if doping puts you off.


That I'm less surprised when I hear there's at least one doping scandal in and around the tour than when there isn't says it all really.

It is part and parcel of cycling, though you can choose to ignore it. I like to see it like the secret, dark, sinister underbelly of what is otherwise a beautiful sport. A bit like those horrible nasty gritty films about New York or something.


It's part of the drama, the action, and the circus.

As long as it doesn't stop you enjoying the racing mind.... :?

jamlala

The racing is great, but I'm afraid that it is forums like this (of which I am a willing participant, see www.bathrugbyere.co.uk) which spread hearsay and conjecture that taint the overriding impression of the sport, possibly more than is reality. Of course I can choose to ignore and to an extent i try to, but its difficult to sweep it under the carpet totally.

I'll dib in from time to time, but generally speaking I'll stick to my own riding I think! Yeah right.....

grantus

Come on mate - there's a lot of money in Rugby these days!

Cycling must be one of the relatively lowest paid sports on the planet and look how driven people are to cheat.

Jeez, some people would cheat even if it was a race to the shops!

Google Operacion Puerto and you'll see that top level footballers were implicated. Of course, this coincided with the 2006 World Cup and we didn't hear much more about it

bipedal

JamLala wrote:

As a newbie I am very saddened by all the incessant talk of doping, blood this and that levels etc. It all means nothing to me, other than it seems to be a daily topic of conversation and, dare I say it, almost an 'accepted' topic of conversation. Whilst under no illusions that other sports are also affected, it doesn't seem to be such a forefront topic of conversation other than maybe in athletics.

I'm a huge rugby fan, and yes there are issues in the sport but they appear rarely. Now you could argue that its all kept under wraps, but I played a lot of rugby and I know the types of characters there and it is all too 'honest beer drinking' I believe for drugs to be anything other than a rarity. Maybe naivety on my part but I don't think so.

In a nutshell, I don't want my fledgling interest in the sport to wane due to incessant cheating by the participants, especially those at the 'top' of the game. Otherwise I'll be gone as quickly as I arrived.

just because they don't look for it doesn't mean it doesn't happen. Cycling gets alot of bad press because it actually makes a huge effort to catch cheats, rugby doesn't even perform out of competition tests...

RichN95.

JamLala wrote:

I'm a huge rugby fan, and yes there are issues in the sport but they appear rarely. Now you could argue that its all kept under wraps, but I played a lot of rugby and I know the types of characters there and it is all too 'honest beer drinking' I believe for drugs to be anything other than a rarity. Maybe naivety on my part but I don't think so.
.

No idea about the pro ranks, but steroid use in South Wales amateur rugby is rampant. In fact steroid full stop (without rugby) in a massive problem in the valley towns.

nowBanned_CarbonCranky

teagar wrote:

That I'm less surprised when I hear there's at least one doping scandal in and around the tour than when there isn't says it all really.

It is part and parcel of cycling, though you can choose to ignore it. I like to see it like the secret, dark, sinister underbelly of what is otherwise a beautiful sport. A bit like those horrible nasty gritty films about New York or something.


It's part of the drama, the action, and the circus.

As long as it doesn't stop you enjoying the racing mind.... :?

in our around infers that it's a tour related finding?

None yet.

teagar

CarbonCranky wrote:

teagar wrote:

That I'm less surprised when I hear there's at least one doping scandal in and around the tour than when there isn't says it all really.

It is part and parcel of cycling, though you can choose to ignore it. I like to see it like the secret, dark, sinister underbelly of what is otherwise a beautiful sport. A bit like those horrible nasty gritty films about New York or something.


It's part of the drama, the action, and the circus.

As long as it doesn't stop you enjoying the racing mind.... :?

in our around infers that it's a tour related finding?

None yet.

It's in and around the time of the tour de france we hear a lot of doping problems.

I mean it as literally as that.

squired

People cheat, no matter what the sport. I suppose the degree of cheating may correlate somewhat to how professional/dedicated the sportsmen are in that sport.

Football is one sport that often causes debate. While I do think there is drug taking, I also think a number of the participants are far more interested in partying and being flash than making sure they are performing at 100%. Although there have been odd positives in cricket, I'd be highly surprised if any of the current England team has taken performance enhancing drugs.

Cycling is very much a central European sport and has a culture based around that. I guess one could say that maybe the central European culture involves high levels of performance enhancement. I know that there has been lots of talk about doping amongst football teams in Europe.

As for Astarloza, I'd be very surprised if he isn't the only Tour participant to test positive this season. It doesn't matter how much talk there is about a "new cycling", the doping culture is still there. The more people who avoid it the better the gains from doing it relative to your peers. Having said that, the more advanced the testing gets the more expensive doping becomes. Given the lack of money in cycling this will put it out of reach of many.

avoidingmyphd

JamLala wrote:

The racing is great, but I'm afraid that it is forums like this (of which I am a willing participant, see www.bathrugbyere.co.uk) which spread hearsay and conjecture that taint the overriding impression of the sport, possibly more than is reality. Of course I can choose to ignore and to an extent i try to, but its difficult to sweep it under the carpet totally.

I'll dib in from time to time, but generally speaking I'll stick to my own riding I think! Yeah right.....

you do realise that this thread is about an actual positive test, not hearsay or conjecture?

in sports with proper testing programmes, they happen occasionally, which encourages the speculation, admittedly, but surely it's better than pretending it's all OK? e.g. tennis has no proper blood testing system in place, chelsea's "blood spinning", or indeed rugby, where testosterone comes from drinking too much?

verylonglegs

Ok slightly OT but seeing as there are a few comments about cheating in sport and the levels it goes to...I've know people to take amphetamines to win a sunday league football game and not a particularly high standard either. Once you see that not much else surprises you with regard to drug abuse in sport.

afx237vi

squired wrote:

People cheat, no matter what the sport. I suppose the degree of cheating may correlate somewhat to how professional/dedicated the sportsmen are in that sport.

Football is one sport that often causes debate. While I do think there is drug taking, I also think a number of the participants are far more interested in partying and being flash than making sure they are performing at 100%. Although there have been odd positives in cricket, I'd be highly surprised if any of the current England team has taken performance enhancing drugs.

What about when you read stuff like this? (Sorry about the Daily Mail link):

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/cricke ... teria.html

The treatment not only included cortisone but also a relatively new drug called Ostenil, a lubricant made from a highly purified form of a bacteria originally found in the guts of horses.

OK, a quick search indicates that Ostenil is not banned under the WADA Code, but can you imagine if that paragraph had been written in relation to a cycling team instead of a cricket team?

The practise of cortisone injections to allow footballers or cricketers to play in spite of long-term injuries is incredibly dubious and often leads to long-term health issues. How is that different to a cyclist getting a blood transfusion to help him race for three weeks instead of two?

Do you think Flintoff asked the England team doctor what was in the syringe before he got the injection? Or just rolled up his sleeve and hoped for the best... same as Jesus Manzano.

I'm not saying the English cricket team is all doped up the gills, but it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if some unscrupulous doctors at English football or rugby clubs were doping players without their knowledge. With such lax testing, combined with big rewards, why wouldn't they?

Mettan

JamLala wrote:

I'm a huge rugby fan, and yes there are issues in the sport but they appear rarely. Now you could argue that its all kept under wraps, but I played a lot of rugby and I know the types of characters there and it is all too 'honest beer drinking' I believe for drugs to be anything other than a rarity. Maybe naivety on my part but I don't think so.

"Strength sports" at an amateur level contain plenty of individuals cycling steroids - similarly, many gyms in Britain have got very ordinary 23 year old lads buying steroids online week-in-week-out (mostly for cosmetic reasons) - steroid use is widespread, sadly - Security guards are on them, Bouncers are on them, Rugby players are on them, Gym-goers are on them........ a sad state of affairs.

jim one

Its sad when a new fan becomes disappointed at the amount of drug talk but we have all been there. Slowly as time goes on and you do some reading and hear from other people you will realise that drugs in sport is not just cycling, but is far worse in other sports where the testing is a joke. An example mentioned is tennis where they refused to do CERA testing because apparently there is no CERA used!! If they never test how do they know?!!

Rugby is rampant with steroids and growth hormone at all levels where it is taken seriously- especially in younger players seeking to bulk up and stake their claim to first team rugby. Not all players of courset. Simon Shaw mentions in his book how he avoids taking anything artifical, while he sees young players coming through taking whatever they are offered without a clue what it is. They just see it as part of the road to playing as a pro as they seek to be bigger faster stronger etc.

Puerto was linked to Barcelona and Real Madrid. I cant remember which team it was but they had previously wanted Dr Fuentes to be the club doctor. The Juventus team of the 1990s that reached several champions league finals has now been proven in an Italian court room to have been on epo amoung other things. Not forgetting Zidane(yes the head but 1) saying he had blood transfusions for recuperation during the season to allow him to play so many games.

As Mettan says steroids are rife just for cosmetic reasons and can be picked up with ease down the local gym or pub.

A bit of an essay, but there will be cheaters in everywalk of life. At least cycling is trying to clean up its image. Someone previously on the forum came up with a good analogy along the lines of the more police there are on the streets then the greater the amount of crime that would appear to be going on as more criminals would be caught.

Just look at Wiggins managing to finish 4th in the tour showing considerable progress over the past few years. Support the riders viewed as clean and enjoy 1 of the best sports there is

RichN95.

To give JamLala some encouragement, I would say that cycling is probably the only sport which is getting cleaner. It is the front line on the war on doping, the sport that takes it the most seriously.

I've always seen a parallel between drug testing and speed cameras. If town A has two speed cameras and everyone knows where they are, then the drivers know when to slow down and hardly anyone gets caught. Elsewhere they're free to speed.Town B on the other hand (let's call it Wrexham*) has speed cameras all over the place including mobile ones and some hidden behind blind corners or bushes. They will catch more speeders. But all over Town B people will drive slower everywhere because of the high probability of being caught.
Town B gets a reputation for speeding while Town A brags about the lack of speeding tickets.

Cycling is Town B, most other sports (mostly football and tennis IMO) are town A.


*Wrexham - Gatso capital of the world.

greasedscotsman

Doesn't his name say it all, "A star loza"...

The Prodigy

RichN95 wrote:

To give JamLala some encouragement, I would say that cycling is probably the only sport which is getting cleaner. It is the front line on the war on doping, the sport that takes it the most seriously.

I've always seen a parallel between drug testing and speed cameras. If town A has two speed cameras and everyone knows where they are, then the drivers know when to slow down and hardly anyone gets caught. Elsewhere they're free to speed.Town B on the other hand (let's call it Wrexham*) has speed cameras all over the place including mobile ones and some hidden behind blind corners or bushes. They will catch more speeders. But all over Town B people will drive slower everywhere because of the high probability of being caught.
Town B gets a reputation for speeding while Town A brags about the lack of speeding tickets.

Cycling is Town B, most other sports (mostly football and tennis IMO) are town A.


*Wrexham - Gatso capital of the world.

Well said

Kléber

Cycling has a doping problem but as said above, it's washing its laundry in public.

As for rugby, it's a great sport. But doping? Well several familiar faces on the England XV, plus senior coaching staff, bear the hallmarks of growth hormone abuse. In their mid-20s they developed new ridges of bone on their brows, the jawbone became more pronounced. These things don't happen because you eat steak or an extra shredded wheat.

All sports will always have their problems. The best thing is to support those who try to do it properly and those who work to clean things up.

frenchfighter

Marc Madiot's (FDJ DS) comments

Il n'aura pas eu la joie de lever les bras sur la ligne d'arrivée. Il aura peut être un peu plus d'argent et une place en plus au classement général (11e). Mais ça ne change pas le bilan du Tour qui a été fait à la fin de la course. Ça n'ajoute pas grand chose", a déclaré ainsi Marc Madiot sur Europe 1 "."On est triste et satisfait que les tricheurs soient démasqués. Mais on ne fait que constater, on prend date. Ça ne change finalement pas grand chose à la course", a-t-il constaté.

simon_e

Kléber wrote:

Cycling has a doping problem but as said above, it's washing its laundry in public.

My thoughts exactly.

JamLala, if you follow pro cycling you'll end up hearing about doping, I'm afraid

An alternative is to avoid this particular forum - or at least the 'dirty' threads. The atmosphere here is pretty hard on dopers, it's where people who love this most amazing sport vent their frustration. But if you can handle that then there is lots to discover.

Robbie McEwen is not mincing his words on this topic:

Astarloza, you're a wanker. While I'm at it, Ricco - stay gone, we don't want you back amongst us. Go ride with Kohl.

afx237vi

Simon E wrote:

Robbie McEwen is not mincing his words on this topic:

Astarloza, you're a wanker. While I'm at it, Ricco - stay gone, we don't want you back amongst us. Go ride with Kohl.

I wonder if he said the same thing to his team-mates Pfannberger and Colom?

Anonymous

frenchfighter wrote:

Marc Madiot's (FDJ DS) comments

Il n'aura pas eu la joie de lever les bras sur la ligne d'arrivée. Il aura peut être un peu plus d'argent et une place en plus au classement général (11e). Mais ça ne change pas le bilan du Tour qui a été fait à la fin de la course. Ça n'ajoute pas grand chose", a déclaré ainsi Marc Madiot sur Europe 1 "."On est triste et satisfait que les tricheurs soient démasqués. Mais on ne fait que constater, on prend date. Ça ne change finalement pas grand chose à la course", a-t-il constaté.

For those who don't speak French, Robbie McEwen has translated it for everyone on Twitter...

iainf72

afx237vi wrote:

I wonder if he said the same thing to his team-mates Pfannberger and Colom?

I had exactly the same thought when I read it.

mgcycleguy

iainf72 wrote:

afx237vi wrote:

I wonder if he said the same thing to his team-mates Pfannberger and Colom?

I had exactly the same thought when I read it.

... he's an Aussie, he probably did it to their face...

Woodchip

The first word that comes in to my head... "D1CK"!!!!!!

Why do they continue to do it? Are they slightly retarded? Or is it just the greed of fame and fortune?

iainf72

Woodchip wrote:

Why do they continue to do it? Are they slightly retarded? Or is it just the greed of fame and fortune?

Well, perhaps just to survive and keep a contract?

It's clear the rider don't fear the EPO tests, be they CERA or Tesco Value EPO. This has to indicate how wide spread it's been for years and how ineffective the testing has been. Even the CERA test must be fairly unreliable.

You need to try and consider their position - If he's taken EPO for years, been tested and got away with it is it so unreasonable that he will continue to take it? After all, it's not like you can perform at the same level without it...

squired

I think the big problem in the past was that there is a fairly wide margin allowed before a test can be called positive. Therefore it might have been clear that they were doping, but due to the need to set a level that won't be argued in court every single time they have to be cautious. Thus I'm sure that in the past the testers have been well aware that people were doping based on test results, but could do nothing about it as the levels weren't enough to be officially positive. Of course the theory is that the biological passport will get around this problem. Whether that is the case or not, I don't know. It will be interesting to see whether a statement comes out in due course saying that Astarloza was one of the people under review because of his biological passport (if that hasn't already been stated...).

iainf72

It's being reported in AS that this could spell the end for the Euskaltel-Euskadi. Indeed they've only started 6 riders in Poland (might you, I remember when they "missed" their flight to Poland a few years ago)