Today I went to Epic Cycles and I.......

itboffin

londonlivvy wrote:

Stuaff, you're right - the Orca is not a bike I'd want to ride to Paris on, but I did that last year and no intention of doing it again, so fortunately I don't need to include that in my thinking.

Greg66, that's an incredibly generous offer - thank you - but am going to be down in deepest darkest Cornwall over xmas/ny and I find the lanes too scary to ride bikes on (barely one car width, with walls either side and drivers who drive like their wife is about to give birth any moment now).

Itboffin, as it happens I have a friend who's just moved to New England and who has a rather large house in which to welcome visitors... But wouldt customs require you to pay tax on it? or only if it looked new (and I'm sure it could be dirty after riding round the hills round there for a few days).

My plan would be take an empty bike box out with you, purchase bike, ride a couple of times and bring it back in the box :roll:

One of my friends in Boston gets 12% off all cycling equipment & apparel, hence my Castelli frenzy on my last visit.

Mmmmm Castelli

always_tyred

itboffin wrote:

londonlivvy wrote:

Stuaff, you're right - the Orca is not a bike I'd want to ride to Paris on, but I did that last year and no intention of doing it again, so fortunately I don't need to include that in my thinking.

Greg66, that's an incredibly generous offer - thank you - but am going to be down in deepest darkest Cornwall over xmas/ny and I find the lanes too scary to ride bikes on (barely one car width, with walls either side and drivers who drive like their wife is about to give birth any moment now).

Itboffin, as it happens I have a friend who's just moved to New England and who has a rather large house in which to welcome visitors... But wouldt customs require you to pay tax on it? or only if it looked new (and I'm sure it could be dirty after riding round the hills round there for a few days).

My plan would be take an empty bike box out with you, purchase bike, ride a couple of times and bring it back in the box :roll:

One of my friends in Boston gets 12% off all cycling equipment & apparel, hence my Castelli frenzy on my last visit.

Mmmmm Castelli

Good idea. Better not put it in writing anywhere though.

gabriel959

londonlivvy wrote:

gabriel959 wrote:

Pro riders have completed the Tour de France and the Vuelta a España using the Orca. Those are 3000km tours in 3 weeks...

True. But those cyclists are a) very hard b) good and c) professional. I am none of the above...

Indeed, but they do also need some comfort. Things such as saddle + seatpost and handlebar and stem can make a big difference in comfort levels as well. As do wheels and tyres.

TommyEss

"And what is your name?"

"Don't tell him Pike!"

"Pike... Your name is going in ze book."

il_principe

itboffin wrote:

Mmmmm Castelli

+1

rolf_f

I first posted this thread in July and I still haven't got a new bike

With Viner apparently suffering from major quality control problems, the only thing Epic can recommend me from their stock is the new Scott CR1 which has a shorter top tube than pretty much anything else.

So, am I wrong to be reluctant? I am sure the Scott is a great bike but compared to a Viner it seems like going for a Ford Focus instead of an Alfa. It'll save me money as I'll no doubt, if I do, get a much cheaper CR1 than any Viner I'd buy but I can't see any emotion in that purchase (hand made Italian with elegant Campag vs mass production Far Eastern with efficient but dull Shimano - doesn't excite me much).

Oh well, at least I pick up my new (1985!) Saab Turbo this weekend. That'll cheer me up

Roastie

Nice work on the Saab.

The universe is trying to tell you that carbon is boring. You need a Litespeed.

stuaff

Rolf F wrote:

I first posted this thread in July and I still haven't got a new bike

With Viner apparently suffering from major quality control problems, the only thing Epic can recommend me from their stock is the new Scott CR1 which has a shorter top tube than pretty much anything else.

So, am I wrong to be reluctant? I am sure the Scott is a great bike but compared to a Viner it seems like going for a Ford Focus instead of an Alfa. It'll save me money as I'll no doubt, if I do, get a much cheaper CR1 than any Viner I'd buy but I can't see any emotion in that purchase (hand made Italian with elegant Campag vs mass production Far Eastern with efficient but dull Shimano - doesn't excite me much).

Oh well, at least I pick up my new (1985!) Saab Turbo this weekend. That'll cheer me up

Viner quality control problems? Eeek. Must be a newish issue, certainly the bikes I've seen have no problems. I was in Velocity a few weeks back when a guy picked up his new Magnifica, looked as good as mine- and he was grinning when I saw him on the road a few days later.

il_principe

Rolf F wrote:

So, am I wrong to be reluctant? I am sure the Scott is a great bike but compared to a Viner it seems like going for a Ford Focus instead of an Alfa. It'll save me money as I'll no doubt, if I do, get a much cheaper CR1 than any Viner I'd buy but I can't see any emotion in that purchase (hand made Italian with elegant Campag vs mass production Far Eastern with efficient but dull Shimano - doesn't excite me much).

Oh well, at least I pick up my new (1985!) Saab Turbo this weekend. That'll cheer me up

Not really. Truth be told there's not a lot in it really. Ok so Viner put their bikes together in Italy, but then they use lugs (whereas most don't these day) and source their Carbon from the same manufacturer as Pinarello and others do. Ultimately It depends on what you want, I'm not a fan of the lugged 'look' with carbon and am lucky in that OTP bikes fit me without needing 'tailoring' to the extent that say LiT did.

Any shop worth their salt will let you hang whatever groupset on whatever frame you want. If they don't then go elsewhere! Of course there is the cachet of say an Italian frame over a US one, and bikes can be an emotional buy (if you prefer Campag then get it, I prefer it, but have Ultegra as well and it's excellent).

I have owned a Specialized and currently own 2 UK made bikes, a German and an Italian. I love them all, but have a soft spot for the Pinarello simply because it's everything I hoped it would be and more!

As ever, test ride test ride test ride and buy the one that feels right, that's the most important thing.

gabriel959

Rolf F wrote:

I first posted this thread in July and I still haven't got a new bike

With Viner apparently suffering from major quality control problems, the only thing Epic can recommend me from their stock is the new Scott CR1 which has a shorter top tube than pretty much anything else.

So, am I wrong to be reluctant? I am sure the Scott is a great bike but compared to a Viner it seems like going for a Ford Focus instead of an Alfa. It'll save me money as I'll no doubt, if I do, get a much cheaper CR1 than any Viner I'd buy but I can't see any emotion in that purchase (hand made Italian with elegant Campag vs mass production Far Eastern with efficient but dull Shimano - doesn't excite me much).

Oh well, at least I pick up my new (1985!) Saab Turbo this weekend. That'll cheer me up

They stock Look, Orbea, Argon, Bianchi and they can only recommend you Scott or Viner?

markshaw77

Rolf F wrote:

I first posted this thread in July and I still haven't got a new bike

With Viner apparently suffering from major quality control problems, the only thing Epic can recommend me from their stock is the new Scott CR1 which has a shorter top tube than pretty much anything else.

So, am I wrong to be reluctant? I am sure the Scott is a great bike but compared to a Viner it seems like going for a Ford Focus instead of an Alfa. It'll save me money as I'll no doubt, if I do, get a much cheaper CR1 than any Viner I'd buy but I can't see any emotion in that purchase (hand made Italian with elegant Campag vs mass production Far Eastern with efficient but dull Shimano - doesn't excite me much).

Oh well, at least I pick up my new (1985!) Saab Turbo this weekend. That'll cheer me up

Rolf - I recently bought a CR1 from Epic - great service (as always) and a great bike too.

I can understand the italian/campag emotional thing, but the CR1 is a stonkingly good bike. I got the 2010 Team version with some upgraded wheels back in November - I have not been out on it much (thanks weather!), but when test riding (both the Team and the Elite, as well as Viner and Orbea) and in the few short rides since, it has been an absolute pleasure - light, sitff in the right places, comfortable and quick - I doubt you would be disappointed.

I think the focus comparison is a little harsh, but I guess when you are spending that much money, the emotion needs to be there or you will always regret it - I hope you resolve the dilemma soon.

rolf_f

gabriel959 wrote:

They stock Look, Orbea, Argon, Bianchi and they can only recommend you Scott or Viner?

I have long legs, short torso. Pretty much all mainstream bikes seem to have a similar geometry which I don't fit. The recommendation of Viner is based on bespoke build, that of the Scott because this years CR1 has a shorter frame than before. They tried to fit me to an Orbea as the best non bespoke they had in stock last year and it wasn't great.

StuAff wrote:

Viner quality control problems? Eeek. Must be a newish issue, certainly the bikes I've seen have no problems. I was in Velocity a few weeks back when a guy picked up his new Magnifica, looked as good as mine- and he was grinning when I saw him on the road a few days later.

It is - maybe it will be sorted out. I hope so.

Il Principe wrote:

Not really. Truth be told there's not a lot in it really. Ok so Viner put their bikes together in Italy, but then they use lugs (whereas most don't these day) and source their Carbon from the same manufacturer as Pinarello and others do. Ultimately It depends on what you want, I'm not a fan of the lugged 'look' with carbon and am lucky in that OTP bikes fit me without needing 'tailoring' to the extent that say LiT did.

I'm a bit anal on these things. Even if most Viners are at least partly made in the Far East, they are still a lot more Italian than the other Italian brands (at mid range level). My MTB is Far Eastern so, for the Road bike, I wanted something as properly European as I could afford. My last bike, a Dawes Horizon, is (was - now has a Shimano bb!) 100% UK and European and I wanted the Road bike as near as possible to that.

markshaw77 wrote:

Rolf - I recently bought a CR1 from Epic - great service (as always) and a great bike too.

I can understand the italian/campag emotional thing, but the CR1 is a stonkingly good bike. I got the 2010 Team version with some upgraded wheels back in November - I have not been out on it much (thanks weather!), but when test riding (both the Team and the Elite, as well as Viner and Orbea) and in the few short rides since, it has been an absolute pleasure - light, sitff in the right places, comfortable and quick - I doubt you would be disappointed.

I think the focus comparison is a little harsh, but I guess when you are spending that much money, the emotion needs to be there or you will always regret it - I hope you resolve the dilemma soon.

Thanks for the comments. I may change my mind when I look at one properly. I would regret subsidising entirely US and Far Eastern economies but if it is the only way, what can I do?

Roastie - Litespeed look interesting but presumably again it is down to geometry. Maybe I should just get my legs cut down. I'd certainly get a bike sooner!

Roastie

Rolf F wrote:

Roastie - Litespeed look interesting but presumably again it is down to geometry. Maybe I should just get my legs cut down. I'd certainly get a bike sooner!

I think you can get the Archon made to measure.

Otherwise there are some other lovely made-to-measure Ti options like Enigma - or maybe even have a look at the Enigma XCR. Steel is real.

Call me a luddite, but I'll take metal over plastic any day of the week.

mrc1

Go to Racescene in Barnsley (worth the journey up the M1) - they will sort you out with an Italian drool machine and will offer plenty of options within any budget!

http://www.racescene.co.uk

edit - Their bike fit service is free and is second to none in terms of quality.

simonaspinall

+1 for Racescene - My Casati is Mint!

rolf_f

Any bespoke or shorter frame geommetries there? And how much are they?

gabriel959

Cycling Plus have a bespoke frame review on this months issue. There is a Viner there but it's not the best one scores wise, that goes to a a lovely Paul Villiers steel machine made-to-measure.

mrc1

Rolf F wrote:

Any bespoke or shorter frame geommetries there? And how much are they?

How long is a piece of string.......

They literally have hundreds of frames in stock (various Italian makers) ranging from alloy/alloy and carbon/full carbon, all with differing geometries etc - they also do custom builds but i would be very suprised if they don't have an off the peg that fits.

Have a read of the cycling plus article about the shop on the site though as that gives more info on the whole process and the range of people they can accomodate, but I am confident that they will have something that suits your frame (forgive me ).

Price wise they are brilliant as all the bikes are built up totally from scratch and you can mix and match things to fit within budget. I ended up with an incredible deal on my Ciocc (one of the few remaining builders that design and build everything in Italy)!

Also don't let the travel put you off! If this bike is going to be a dream purchase then you certainly won't regret travelling a couple of hours in the car rather than buying a compromised bike that you dont love.

rolf_f

mrc1 wrote:

Also don't let the travel put you off! If this bike is going to be a dream purchase then you certainly won't regret travelling a couple of hours in the car rather than buying a compromised bike that you dont love.

I might have a look 8) - the only problem with Barnsley as far as getting there is that it isn't far enough
(actually cycleable......)

stuaff

Rolf, as a regular customer of Velocity I'm on their email list, got latest one today. 2009 Perfecta with Chorus down from £3299 to £2474.99.....No, I'm not tempted, honest (doubt the frame would feel like enough of an upgrade- better certainly, just not that much...I could have Di2 etc on the Magnifica for that). www.velocitybikes.co.uk Nice bunch, they'll look after you (and might have a few other options for you as well!).
Might be worth getting a second opinion about any issues with Viner quality- and I'm sure Viner UK would like to know of any problems as well (Peter Cole from them has posted on here, user name vinerbikesuk, or email them- info@companyz.co.uk). I get the impression from Epic's website that they're not as 'into' Viner as they have been- the 2010 bike details went up then pretty much got pulled with only a few models on the page. If they've had problems, it's not surprising, but whether it's a wider issue is another matter.

rolf_f

StuAff wrote:

Rolf, as a regular customer of Velocity I'm on their email list, got latest one today. 2009 Perfecta with Chorus down from £3299 to £2474.99.....No, I'm not tempted, honest (doubt the frame would feel like enough of an upgrade- better certainly, just not that much...I could have Di2 etc on the Magnifica for that). www.velocitybikes.co.uk Nice bunch, they'll look after you (and might have a few other options for you as well!).

Thanks for the suggestion but Velocity are just wayyyyyy too far South for me!

Anyway, the good news is I'm back off to Epic on the 15th. As well as the Scott CR1, I should be able test the Look 585 Optimum which Chris reckons should fit. Looks like Look are replacing Viner at Epic and they look OK too!

Not sure that they appeal to me quite so much as Viner but at least they should be able to supply me a good quality bike (which Viner couldn't) and the bikes are probably more genuinely French than Viners are genuinely Italian. Any feedback from anyone who has a 585 would be appreciated!

cjcp

@Rolf - the 2010 CR1 is a sportive-style geometry, whereas the CR1 Pro I have is the 2006 pre-Addict range. The Addict replaced the CR1 range as the race bike, but the CR1 has been brought back to target the sportive riders. I *think* this is why it has a short top tube. Fwiw, it's a great ride. Not at all like a Ford Focus . Besides, Alfas break down. :P

stuaff

Rolf, update: Epic have now dropped Viner, but not because of quality issues (which refers to two- yes, two- frames they got in December with minor paint defects)- they don't think they're selling enough... see post by Peter Cole the UK importer, aka vinerbikesuk here which puts his case very nicely. Don't rule out Viner just yet....
Triangle in Leeds is your nearest dealer I think, Chip 'oyler got his Maxima from them. http://www.triangleleeds.co.uk/

rolf_f

StuAff wrote:

Rolf, update: Epic have now dropped Viner, but not because of quality issues (which refers to two- yes, two- frames they got in December with minor paint defects)- they don't think they're selling enough... see post by Peter Cole the UK importer, aka vinerbikesuk here which puts his case very nicely. Don't rule out Viner just yet....
Triangle in Leeds is your nearest dealer I think, Chip 'oyler got his Maxima from them. http://www.triangleleeds.co.uk/

I think there is more to it than this but I'd like to keep an open mind.

As for Triangle - I've been there; I really liked the shop but they can't offer test rides and I won't spend this kind of money on a bike if I've not been able to at least ride something similar. And there is the other complication that my B2W voucher is made out to Epic so if I get a Viner from elsewhere, it needs to have a £400 discount on it.......

cjcp - I'm sure the Scott is a good choice (I think you are right about why the CR1 has a short top tube - still means it is less Sportive proportioned for my shape but then if it was, my knees would clout the handlebars when standing on the pedals. Not ruling it out but I just want a more heart than head based choice!

stuaff

Rolf F wrote:

I think there is more to it than this but I'd like to keep an open mind.

As for Triangle - I've been there; I really liked the shop but they can't offer test rides and I won't spend this kind of money on a bike if I've not been able to at least ride something similar. And there is the other complication that my B2W voucher is made out to Epic so if I get a Viner from elsewhere, it needs to have a £400 discount on it.......

Fair enough- it's lot of money to pass up. And as for the Viner/Epic thing- I know what you mean. I'd prefer Epic to have been more upfront about their reasons, particularly as they were (until very recently) enthusiastic dealers. They're still selling bikes on eBay (listing describes themselves as 'the UK's number one Viner dealer'), were happily quoting me prices for Viner kit in December, and are naturally enough still selling their remaining stock. Peter Cole's arguments are sound, but we haven't heard anything equivalent from Epic, and the gossip/rumours that have been going round here are a result of that.