Politically Correct
Comments
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Agent57 wrote:Porgy wrote:If a book came out called "ten little fuc.king cun.ts" would you expect this title to be used?
Yes. Yes I would.
And why wouldn't it be? There have been books published in the past decade with "****" in the title. You can find two examples on amazon.co.uk.
Did you say fu.ck or cu.nt? I can't tell.
It will obviously depend on the context - a feminist book with cu.nt in the title will probably be fine. But don;t expect the title to be used on the BBC, or be stocked by the local library.
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DonDaddyD wrote:Your missing the point. Do you know what the word means and what it truly represents? I ask this because what you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
You don't need political correctness to tell you doing so is wrong, no matter the era.
you +1 me and i'll +1 you 0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Your missing the point. What you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
I think you're missing the point. My post related to "f***ing c***s", which is nothing to do with ethnicity.
My belief is that offence is in the mind of the beholder. I've been called a nigger, nig-nog, wog, paki, jungle-bunny, and all manner of other things. I just don't get hot and flustered by it, so I have a hard time understanding why some people get so terribly offended.
And for that reason, I'm out.0 -
Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Your missing the point. What you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
I think you're missing the point. My post related to "f***ing c***s", which is nothing to do with ethnicity.
My belief is that offence is in the mind of the beholder. I've been called a nigger, nig-nog, wog, paki, jungle-bunny, and all manner of other things. I just don't get hot and flustered by it, so I have a hard time understanding why some people get so terribly offended.
And for that reason, I'm out.
That's fine for you - but you're one person, and probably not at all representative. Not one black person I have known in the past 15 years would tolerate the use of the term "nigger" unless in quotes, and tbh, not many white people either.
It's common decency not to offend people - and if one word can offend hundreds of thousands - or even millions - then don;t effing use it!!
That's not PC!0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:I really think a few people need to read some history books and educate themselves before voicing opinions.Agent57 wrote:Porgy wrote:If a book came out called "ten little fuc.king cun.ts" would you expect this title to be used?
Yes. Yes I would.
And why wouldn't it be? There have been books published in the past decade with "****" in the title. You can find two examples on amazon.co.uk.
Your missing the point. Do you know what the word means and what it truly represents? I ask this because what you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
You don't need political correctness to tell you doing so is wrong, no matter the era.
DDD - are you against the use of the word in all instances? Its in a lot of Hip Hop lyrics, and I have seen Chris Rock doing a whole stand up show about it. Or is it the intent/who says it?
The reason I ask is that I doubt Agatha Christie used the word with racist intent, so is it still offensive?0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:IYou don't need political correctness to tell you doing so is wrong, no matter the era.
Political Correctness isn't a set of rules written in a book, it should be common sense not to use words that are offensive, but that common sense (which isn't always common) is all Political Correctness is.
The problems arise when either the person using the term isn't aware, or doesn't accept, that it's offensive, and so feels that they are being oppressed in some way or some tool in power who's lacking the common sense to know that a term isn't offensive (Christmas, for example) bans it.
As I said before, the vast majority of "PC gone mad" stories are actually someone using it as an excuse to do/not do something for entirely inrelated reasons.0 -
Porgy wrote:Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Your missing the point. What you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
I think you're missing the point. My post related to "f***ing c***s", which is nothing to do with ethnicity.
My belief is that offence is in the mind of the beholder. I've been called a nigger, nig-nog, wog, paki, jungle-bunny, and all manner of other things. I just don't get hot and flustered by it, so I have a hard time understanding why some people get so terribly offended.
And for that reason, I'm out.
That's fine for you - but you're one person, and probably not at all representative. Not one black person I have known in the past 15 years would tolerate the use of the term "nigger" unless in quotes, and tbh, not many white people either.
It's common decency not to offend people - and if one word can offend hundreds of thousands - or even millions - then don;t effing use it!!
That's not PC!
indeed because of the words history I don't care to use it, I do understand why some use it, good way of removing it's power my cousin and his friends do, but I would feel uncomftable using it, probably worth mentioning that i'm white and he is black or at least viewed as such any how.0 -
Agent57 wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Your missing the point. What you're advocating is the public use of a word designed and created to express hatred towards a particualr ethnicity.
My belief is that offence is in the mind of the beholder. I've been called a nigger, nig-nog, wog, paki, jungle-bunny, and all manner of other things. I just don't get hot and flustered by it, so I have a hard time understanding why some people get so terribly offended.
I bought a teddy, called it Muhammad, sold it on ebay and made a profit...
Just because the word or phrase doesn't offend you doesn't stop its intentions from being offensive and that's the point. In some way's it doesn't matter how the word affect you, its the intention behind what it represents, its connotations.
If we follow your logic, just because it doesn't offend you that means its OK to be used. Come to the Mopeth and let a Greg call you Nigger all night, patting your head and whipping your back as he does it... :roll:Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Porgy wrote:It's common decency not to offend people - and if one word can offend hundreds of thousands - or even millions - then don;t effing use it!!
That's not PC!
I said I was out, but...
You're misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying I think it's OK to walk up to a black person and say "hey, what's up nigger?" I understand how that is offensive.
My point was about using the title of a book, and whether it should be swept under the carpet, never to be used again, in any context. I think to do that would be political correctness.
FWIW, Amazon.co.uk don't seem to think it should be censored. If you search for "niggers" on the site, you'll get a lot of hits. If they'd sought to hide those results, or label them "Ten Little N*****s", I'd say that was PC.
This time I really am out, because I'm pretty sure this has scope to get quite heated, and I don't think I'm making my point very well at all.0 -
Agent57 wrote:Porgy wrote:It's common decency not to offend people - and if one word can offend hundreds of thousands - or even millions - then don;t effing use it!!
That's not PC!
I said I was out, but...
You're misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying I think it's OK to walk up to a black person and say "hey, what's up nigger?" I understand how that is offensive.
My point was about using the title of a book, and whether it should be swept under the carpet, never to be used again, in any context. I think to do that would be political correctness.
FWIW, Amazon.co.uk don't seem to think it should be censored. If you search for "niggers" on the site, you'll get a lot of hits. If they'd sought to hide those results, or label them "Ten Little N*****s", I'd say that was PC.
This time I really am out, because I'm pretty sure this has scope to get quite heated, and I don't think I'm making my point very well at all.
I don;t believe it should be censored - that would be like trying to change history - but reprints and dramatisations should imo use an alternative title as the title no longer does what it did historically - it detracts from the book which as you say is nothing to do with "niggers" or racism in any way. But it is racist. I'd be all for sticking the original title on the inside page - something like "originally published as...."
Since being diagnosed as autistic I've become quite sensitive to the flagrant use of stereotypes all over the media. Unfortunately I have to grin and bare it as otherwise it makes me look like a humourless PC toss pot - but it does genuinely upset me and set up a distance between me and the programme, event, writer, etc.0 -
Sewinman wrote:DDD - are you against the use of the word in all instances? Its in a lot of Hip Hop lyrics, and I have seen Chris Rock doing a whole stand up show about it. Or is it the intent/who says it?
The reason I ask is that I doubt Agatha Christie used the word with racist intent, so is it still offensive?
It's OK for black people to use it and say it.
African American culture is not something I look at with awe and amazement. Look at all the negative representations, the negative imagery. It's not something I'm proud of Most who use the word or think its use it "now" OK are uninformed about the words history, what it represents and what it helped do to an entire race (reaffirmed that they are slaves and later second class citizens).
So no its not OK for the word to be used, ever.
I was shown a photo of a black man walking home, beaten, castrated, his testicles put into his mouth so he would choke on his own blood. He was hung, he died. This man was called nigger - was the caption. From that point onwards I understood what the word represented. People should be made to feel ashamed to use that word or to think that it's use was ever Ok.
Boondocks, what if Martin Luther King hadn't died.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
But I am glad they have changed the name of that book – I can’t imagine sitting on the bus back to Streatham with that as reading material!0 -
Porgy wrote:If a book came out called "ten little fuc.king cun.ts" would you expect this title to be used?
Speaking as a fan of the mighty Leicester City, can I just point out that this is what we see as the match day programme when it's time for us to trek north up the M1 a bit to play the derby county?
<runs...>0 -
Agent57 wrote:Porgy wrote:It's common decency not to offend people - and if one word can offend hundreds of thousands - or even millions - then don;t effing use it!!
That's not PC!
I said I was out, but...
You're misrepresenting or misunderstanding my position. I'm not saying I think it's OK to walk up to a black person and say "hey, what's up nigger?" I understand how that is offensive.
My point was about using the title of a book, and whether it should be swept under the carpet, never to be used again, in any context. I think to do that would be political correctness.
FWIW, Amazon.co.uk don't seem to think it should be censored. If you search for "niggers" on the site, you'll get a lot of hits. If they'd sought to hide those results, or label them "Ten Little N*****s", I'd say that was PC.
This time I really am out, because I'm pretty sure this has scope to get quite heated, and I don't think I'm making my point very well at all.
You love saying the word "nigger", don't you Agent57! What's your ethnic background, since you've had all these abusive words thrown at you?0 -
Sewinman wrote:I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
What did the word evolve from?
In fact I'll tell you!
The word Negro means black in Portugese, Spainish and Italian. It is Niger in Latin.
As these were some of the earliest slave traders and main contributors to spoken language this word was wide spread and co-opted into English to describe a black person. Eventually as slang took hold the word eventually became nigger.
The term nigger was used to refer to black people at a time when they were slaves and were mistreated as they had no human rights. It was used at a time when they were whipped, raped, beaten and hung without the protection of any law of any kind. The word has always been pejorative to those of African origin.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Sewinman wrote:I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
What did the word evolve from?
In fact I'll tell you!
The word Negro means black in Portugese, Spainish and Italian. It is Niger in Latin.
As these were some of the earliest slave traders and main contributors to spoken language this word was wide spread and co-opted into English to describe a black person. Eventually as slang took hold the word eventually became nigger.
The term nigger was used to refer to black people at a time when they were slaves and were mistreated as they had no human rights. It was used at a time when they were whipped, raped, beaten and hung without the protection of any law of any kind. The word has always been pejorative to those of African origin.
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yeah - me too (+1) - I was thinking about writing something similar, but glad you did
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Anyway, I think we really have gotten off the point here.
Changing Baa Baa Black sheep. To Baa Baa any sheep. That's not offensive. That PC gone mad. The sheep is black, its a colour.
The use of the word Nigger in a title. Common sense. The word was designed to offend so why use it unless you want to offend.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
Eau Rouge wrote:As I said before, the vast majority of "PC gone mad" stories are actually someone using it as an excuse to do/not do something for entirely inrelated reasons.
.....the most insightful observation in this strand......
we can't even agree what PC means between us - and in some ways it's irrelevant*. but we've probably all been irritated by the seemingly illogical actions/inactions blamed on being PC.
* I don't mean that I think that trying to moderate use of offensive language/racist/sexist terms is irrelevant, only that us not being able to agree a definition is.0 -
DonDaddyD wrote:Sewinman wrote:I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
What did the word evolve from?
In fact I'll tell you!
The word Negro means black in Portugese, Spainish and Italian. It is Niger in Latin.
As these were some of the earliest slave traders and main contributors to spoken language this word was wide spread and co-opted into English to describe a black person. Eventually as slang took hold the word eventually became nigger.
The term nigger was used to refer to black people at a time when they were slaves and were mistreated as they had no human rights. It was used at a time when they were whipped, raped, beaten and hung without the protection of any law of any kind. The word has always been pejorative to those of African origin.
I disagree. The fact that black people were persecuted at the time does not make the word used to describe them at the time necessarily pejorative. It just meant black.0 -
Sewinman wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Sewinman wrote:I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
What did the word evolve from?
In fact I'll tell you!
The word Negro means black in Portugese, Spainish and Italian. It is Niger in Latin.
As these were some of the earliest slave traders and main contributors to spoken language this word was wide spread and co-opted into English to describe a black person. Eventually as slang took hold the word eventually became nigger.
The term nigger was used to refer to black people at a time when they were slaves and were mistreated as they had no human rights. It was used at a time when they were whipped, raped, beaten and hung without the protection of any law of any kind. The word has always been pejorative to those of African origin.
I disagree. The fact that black people were persecuted at the time does not make the word used to describe them at the time necessarily pejorative. It just meant black.
But the point is that the two 'senses' cant be disentangled so to argue that the term can be/was ever used neutrally just doesnt wash.0 -
biondino wrote:You love saying the word "nigger", don't you Agent57!
If you say so. I've only used it here in the context of my posts in this thread. Can't think of anywhere else I've used it on any forums elsewhere, or threads on this forum.biondino wrote:What's your ethnic background, since you've had all these abusive words thrown at you?
Half Guyanese (father), grandparents were born on Trinidad. Their parents were indentured labourers. Or maybe it was their grandparents. The other half Anglo-Saxon. I lived in Guyana for a while, but spent most of my childhood in Thanet in the 70s and 80s, being pretty much the only non-white boy in the school. Even if I was half-white, I still got my share of abuse.0 -
thought this is a great example - even if it is from the DMLibrary chiefs ban Sunday school posters because they 'promote religion'
Jacalyn Oghan, 46, asked for permission to to advertise a multi-faith craft, singing and drama event at her church.
But officials at Jubilee Library in Brighton rejected her colourful, hand-made poster inviting children to 'come in and have fun' as it would 'promote religion'.
'Political correctness gone mad': This poster was banned by officials at Jubilee Library in Brighton because it would 'promote religion'
Mrs Oghan, who has run the Sunday school at St Mary's Church in the city for 13 years, accused the officials of 'political correctness gone mad'.
She said: 'Anyone in the community, of whatever faith, should be able to put up a poster in their local library so that people know what is going on.
'But I was told my poster could not be displayed because it had religious content.
'Many Christians in the community are already too frightened to speak up.
'And now there are guidelines preventing posters being put up advertising church events.
'I was made to feel as if my poster was somehow offensive or dangerous.'
The mother of three said she found the decision particularly bewildering, especially as the library shop was selling sweets which were 'clearly poking fun at Christianity".
The 'Messiah Mints' have a picture of Jesus on the tin and the flippant message: 'Here's that Jesus fella again – and this time he's spreading minty freshness into the mouths of the masses.'
'It is so sad that they can do that, yet an inoffensive poster inclusive to all faiths is deemed non-PC,' she said.
A Brighton & Hove City Council spokeswoman said: 'In the interests of fairness, we have very clear and strict guidelines for displaying information in the library and we do not accept any material promoting a particular religious view point.
'With regards to the mints, these are one of a series of tinned mints sold in the shop. The labelling is not meant to offend
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Sewinman wrote:DonDaddyD wrote:Sewinman wrote:I agree that the word definitely evolved into pejorative and highly offensive racist term but it was not always used in that way.
What did the word evolve from?
In fact I'll tell you!
The word Negro means black in Portugese, Spainish and Italian. It is Niger in Latin.
As these were some of the earliest slave traders and main contributors to spoken language this word was wide spread and co-opted into English to describe a black person. Eventually as slang took hold the word eventually became nigger.
The term nigger was used to refer to black people at a time when they were slaves and were mistreated as they had no human rights. It was used at a time when they were whipped, raped, beaten and hung without the protection of any law of any kind. The word has always been pejorative to those of African origin.
I disagree. The fact that black people were persecuted at the time does not make the word used to describe them at the time necessarily pejorative. It just meant black.
and the fact that the anti-slavery movement chose to use the word "negro" as opposed to "nigger" means....what?0 -
Sewinman.
The term was and had always been a pejorative term to black people. All those slaves, before they were slaves, had names, real ones. They also had the names of their tribes and of their race in their own language.
To strip them of that and to call them niggers was pejorative to them. Trust me.Food Chain number = 4
A true scalp is not only overtaking someone but leaving them stopped at a set of lights. As you, who have clearly beaten the lights, pummels nothing but the open air ahead. ~ 'DondaddyD'. Player of the Unspoken Game0 -
That it had developed a pejorative tone? The same thing has happened to 'Negro' and 'Coloured' since then surely?0
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DonDaddyD wrote:Sewinman.
The term was and had always been a pejorative term to black people. All those slaves, before they were slaves, had names, real ones. They also had the names of their tribes and of their race in their own language.
To strip them of that and to call them niggers was pejorative to them. Trust me.
Fair enough, I will take your word for it - anyway this is basically the sort of discussion a white bloke should avoid like the plague!0
