Has Cav's DQ today cost him the Green jersey
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Look how the Caisse or Silence Lotto (Red & Black) rider behind Husvold narrows in on the barrier. Or the white rider behind and infront of this red & black rider. They were following the tightest riding line around a corner and the barrier clearly jumps out.
Husvold was in a bad position right from the start, by being so close to the barrier and ultimately the corner apex he was taking risks and hoping to steal the tightest bend on Cav.
The barrier jumped out and he and ASO should take responsibility for this. I think we will see further action on this matter before the end of today's stage as the lawyers will now be getting involved.
If I was Stapleton then i would just buy Cervelo
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The problem really comes down to Columbia trying to have their cake and eat it yesterday.
If Hincapie had done what he should have done when Ivanov went, ie buried himself to try and make sure that he got the jersy then Columbia could have led the sprint out properly and there would have been no problem.
Wat caused the problem was trying to run a blocking manoever while still gating Cavendish into a position to win the bunch sprint.We\'ll kick against the darkness \'till it bleeds daylight0 -
No, it shows that the riders behind are following the wheels of the riders in front!plectrum wrote:if you check all the riders behind Husvold they also get closer to the barrier showing that the racing line takes you towards the barriers and not that anyone particularly changed their line.
Cavendish moves well over to the right with respect both to the centre line and his own lead-out man.
Before moving across to the right he looks behind at Hushovd so his actions are clearly deliberate.
If the barriers do pull in from the right slightly, the correct racing line would have maintained an equal distance from them.0 -
Harsh. Would be interested to hear Cavendish's side of the story.--
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com0 -
As you say, it looks as though the riders are going around a corner (note the curvature of the centre line in that picture). Instead of following the centre line of the road and maintaining his distance from the barrier, Cavendish deliberately 'cuts the corner' and so goes right across Hushovd's path. His lead-out man (who one would think Cavendish would be following if his main objective was not to block Hushovd) does maintain the correct line and is still way over towards the centre.plectrum wrote:Look how the Caisse or Silence Lotto (Red & Black) rider behind Husvold narrows in on the barrier. Or the white rider behind and infront of this red & black rider. They were following the tightest riding line around a corner and the barrier clearly jumps out.
True, the line of the barrier is not continuous, but that is not because if 'jumps out' at this point. Rather at this point the barrier begins to curve to the right, opening up the road further as the finish line approaches.0 -
It will also be interesting to see if he spits his dummy out and packs when he hits the Alps.liversedge wrote:Harsh. Would be interested to hear Cavendish's side of the story.
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mandie wrote:The problem really comes down to Columbia trying to have their cake and eat it yesterday.
If Hincapie had done what he should have done when Ivanov went, ie buried himself to try and make sure that he got the jersy then Columbia could have led the sprint out properly and there would have been no problem.
Wat caused the problem was trying to run a blocking manoever while still gating Cavendish into a position to win the bunch sprint.
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I would say so. It was going to be tough for him anyway, but now I think it's a step too far. I think next year he will be in a better position though, he knows he needs to improve his consistency, so so long as he works on that, he stands a good shot.0
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Totally agree with aurelio.....Cav's actions were indeed deliberate!!! He was intentionally blocking thor, no if, but or maybe's about it. I knew there was something i didn't like about cav. iI like him even less now. Knob.0
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In this photo has he moved 'slightly to the right to get past his lead-out man', or way out to the right in what looks clearly like a move to block Hushovd. His lead-out man certainly seems to have had no problem following the correct racing line relative to both the centre line of the road and the barriers, but Cavendish has moved so far to the right that another rider could easily ride through the gap between him and his lead-out man!Tom Butcher wrote:He's entitled to move slightly to the right to get past his leadout man
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It's a complicated thing, and open to interpretation, either way, but for me Cav was not in the wrong. There may have been a bit of wavering, but that's to be expected. Also, I don;t think he actually sees TH. That's how I read his looking around. I think the barriers to move in, quite obvioulsy so. When I first saw it, I didn;t think he shut him out, and with the slow mo and helecam, I still don;t think he did.
I think the more interesting aspect is, would he have been DQ'd if that article hadn't appeared in the French press? What's more to the point, would he have been DQ'd if he'd been a French rider? I suspect not.
Also, the guy who made the descision to DQ him seemed somewhat high handed when he stated that it was his descision and his descision alone, and there was no point in Columbia appealing, as they'd only be appealing to him, and he wouldn;t change his mind. For something which effectively decides the green Jersey, it seems somewhat inflexible. Surely their should be a second opinion, at least.
I feel very disappointed in what, for me, has been an otherwise great tour.0 -
A theory that would hold a lot more water if Cavendish hadn't clearly looked back at Hushvod immediately before moving across to the right and shutting the door on him!cycledad2 wrote:I dont think it was delibratly calculated, more a bit of inexperience.
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+1 on the have cake and eat it thing. Going for 2 jerseys, where the deciding action in both plays out in the final km, was always going to be risky. The DS made a compromise call - they didn't go all out for the green by doing their usual fast lead-out as they blocked as long as they could for Hincapie, whereas they also didn't go all out for yellow either by blocking all the way and not contesting the sprint (or at least allowing some other team to take the lead).
If I was Hincapie I'd be unhappy about that. If I was Cav I'd be unhappy. They have managed to risk everything, lose it all and please noone.
Its a fine line between them pulling it off and being feted for an extraordinary day of racing, and losing on all counts - its unfortunate for them it didn't work out.
No surprise that there is a little lashing out (which to be fair I've only heard from Stapleton - I make an allowance for Hincapie's comments right after as he did not have all the facts and was still running on adrenalin. I feel the real problem was in the Columbia's car, not Garmin's, and not the commissaire's.
+1 Aurelio - good work on the reconstruction!
I think the key here is that the racing line that everyone is quoting seems to be different depending upon your viewpoint. My understanding is that where the race is going on on one side of the road, the racing line is relative to the edge of that road, regardless of bends. So, Cav should have maintained his distance from the barriers, especially given he knew Hushovd was there.
When I race this is referred to as 'switching' and is severely frowned upon. If you do it, even out on the course rather than in the sprint, you'll get an earful of "hold your line you f*ck" etc. ;-)
Whether it should have been a DQ or a reversal I'll leave to others (I'm not familiar with the penalties usually given) - it does seem a little harsh, but if they decided this was deliberate, then its pretty dangerous. So long as the penalty is consistent with similar cases, its ok in my book.
I think whether Silence and Garmin pulled deliberately is more of a grey area than the Cav DQ, given Wiggins' comments immediately after about them being told to chase so that Hincapie did not get yellow. However, even there, if Columbia being n yellow today did not suit Garmin's strategy (Astana would be freed up from helping AG2R), that is fair enough. Another thread for that though!
Shame for Cav despite all that though, maybe he can still pull green out of the bag somehow... Even if not, he'll do it in the next year or two I'm sure, and he's still likely (if not more likely now!) to get a 5th win on the Champs Elysee.
Could even be exciting if he makes a go all the intermediate sprints between here and Paris....0 -
No, he was looking for his mum in the crowd...Gotte wrote:IAlso, I don;t think he actually sees TH. That's how I read his looking around.
Oh no, not another 'French conspiracy' theory. :roll: To start with Iain has already pointed out that the judges who made this decision are an international panel led by a Dutchman!Gotte wrote:I think the more interesting aspect is, would he have been DQ'd if that article hadn't appeared in the French press? What's more to the point, would he have been DQ'd if he'd been a French rider? I suspect not.0 -
aurelio wrote:
No, he was looking for his mum in the crowd...Gotte wrote:IAlso, I don;t think he actually sees TH. That's how I read his looking around.
Oh no, not another 'French conspiracy' theory. :roll: To start with Iain has already pointed out that the judges who made this decision are an international panel led by a Dutchman!Gotte wrote:I think the more interesting aspect is, would he have been DQ'd if that article hadn't appeared in the French press? What's more to the point, would he have been DQ'd if he'd been a French rider? I suspect not.
Like I said, that's how I read it, not that's how it is.
God, not the rolleyes. Spare me.0 -
This is the 1st time I've watched the tdf and I thought at the time TC were trying to block TH instead of their usual lead out. Did think there was a split second just as Cav looked round that TH could have tried to get inside him thus preventing him getting boxed in. Guess he didnt have the legs. As other have said, DQ seems a bit harsh.2 Wheels or not 2 wheels..That is not in question.0
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As Mark said himself today on ITV4 - it's nothing compared to a spectator dying on yesterday's stage. He seemed pretty cut up about that and said all of yesterday's stage was not a good one for him.0
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Defo shouldn't have been a DQ for Cav. Unbelievably harsh decision. He held his line, nothing more. Ahhh well... if Hushovd gets green in Paris it will be a pyrrhic victory. I liked Cav's interview at the top of ITV4's coverage today... clearly disappointed but philosophical. Good on yer lad!Liverpool Mercury CC0
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Cavendish was in the wrong. Poor judgement, bad attitude and bad sportsmanship. If he is the best sprinter in the world, why did he feel he had to box someone in on the sprint?
Can't stand him, he should let his legs do more of the talking and keep his mouth shut until he matures a little. Still his life story is coming out soon, should be a quick read, he isn't cashing in on fame much is he? :roll:0 -
The answer to that is all over this thread. He was trying to win the sprint slowly so as not to cross the line so quickly that it knocked Hincapie out of yellow. This didn't work out, but the idea that he would box in Hushovd because he can't outsprint him is total nonsense. Even Hushovd has acknowledged it repeatedly in the last few days.dmclite wrote:If he is the best sprinter in the world, why did he feel he had to box someone in on the sprint?
How could he possibly let his legs do more of the talking? He is already a world, european and commonwealth champion on the track, has more pro wins than any British Cyclist ever on the road, and more tour de france stage wins too. What would you like him to do? Win the Paris stage on a unicycle? Obviously the book is a little premature (hopefully) but you can't seriously be suggesting that he shouldn't cash in on his fame? Should he stay skint just to please you?dmclite wrote:Can't stand him, he should let his legs do more of the talking and keep his mouth shut until he matures a little. Still his life story is coming out soon, should be a quick read, he isn't cashing in on fame much is he? :roll:
You don't have to like him. There are loads of reasons not to. But those in your post are not them.0 -
I think McEwen called it sensibly in the phone interview with Ned Boulting: basically Cav should have been penalized, but with a placing reversal with Thor not a DQ.
Robbie then followed that up with patronising comment aimed at the officials, pointing out that none of them have first hand experience of pro-sprinting (e.g. Martin Bruin is a former downhill skier).0 -
I know there are plenty of other reasons not to like him, just haven't put them in here. When you compare him to Bradley Wiggins he comes up such a poor second. Plus he isn't staying skint by a long shot and I think the book when it comes out will be ammunition for everyone else to put him down a bit more.
It isn't a concious choice, not liking Mark Cavendish, just an absolute reactive one. the comments he made about the team TT in the Giro and then bails out himself, pratt.0 -
Hard to tell whether he deliberately boxed TH in or not. It was a difficult sprint as the team were trying to preserve Hincapie's lead and unfortunately it all went wrong for them. Cav getting disqualified is a real bugger though, as I really thought he was going to get green. I must admit to laughing out loud at his remark about how TH would probably complain about him for eating the wrong cereal bar or something.... he's obviously feeling a bit hard done by. His comment about Hincapie and the woman who was killed shows he's a sensitive sort, even though he might seem a little hot headed sometimes - but that hot headedness just adds to the charm and character of the guy. He's very young, and he's obviously an emotional bloke, so of course he's going to say daft things sometimes. I like it. It makes things interesting (and entertaining). Hope he gets the Paris win.0
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Really can't be arsed reading all this tosh but is it not a fact that Cavendish had tto finish six places ahead of Thor to take the lead in the GJ comp? . the only way he could realistically do this was to put Thor on his arse. He didn't and now he is showing himself up to be the pillock most suspected he was.
Come on Bradley, get in there.
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In terms of the overall green jersey competition that ploy might still work, though it would be better to have a stooge do the dirty work, as one of the Telekom riders did to O'Grady a few years ago when Zabel won the GJ.the only way he could realisticly do this was to put Thor on his ars*.0 -
Interesting Kelly didn't think Cav did anything wrong - anyone know how any other former/current pros called it ?
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:Interesting Kelly didn't think Cav did anything wrong - anyone know how any other former/current pros called it ?
Yes. 0 -
Lol ' dmclite, I think the book has been out nearly two months.
Aurelio clearly needs to be employed as a tv cycling pundit, given that no one elses opinion matters and you will just get pictures to look at again and again and be told you are wrong.
As Sherwen, Kelly, Harmon (not an ex-pro but might have seen a bit of cycling) and co seem to think that Cav did sweet fa wrong (they obviously see the bulge in the boarding that doesn't really exist etc.) they need to be fired and replaced by someone who knows it all.
I ain't too fussed who was in the wrong (if anyone) and I have seen far worse get completely ignored. Thor was in a naive position, or perhaps lining up the circs for a complaint, and Cav really should have sat up and moved over and gifted Thor the sprint...lol
I do like the way dicks come on here though and brand Cav immature and that having seen the sprint they dislike the guy even more and he should grow up. Pot calling kettle...
And if he is such a gob shite, he must have had is response for ITV earlier written for him by someone far more mature, because he came across very disappointed and serious, calculated in what he said and even if he didn't mean what he said, most people without a pre-existing bias would probably have thought he did pretty well.
In the meantime, Thor is crying even more wherever you turn, "He tried to put me into the barriers". Mate, if he tried to put you into the barriers you would have been in the barriers, probably along with Cav...drama queen tbh.0 -
I stand corrected on the book FOAd but don't call me a dick for having an opinion.0
