Has Cav's DQ today cost him the Green jersey

The_Special_One

Yes i know its still mathematically possible for Cav to win the Green Jersey but with him been 18pts behind Hushovd & i cant see where he is going to pick anymore points up untill say the 2 bonus sprints on stage 19, i can then see him getting dropped on the nice little cat 2 climb at the end of that stage. Very good chance he could come away from stage 19 with zero points for the day.

That only leaves stage 21 and the run into Paris and even then a win on the Champs plus the 2 bonus sprints may still not be enough to overtake Hushovd.

So barring a disaster for Hushovd im not sure that Cav will now win the Green Jersey.

takethehighroad

I didn't think he would win it even before today's antics, Thor has the capability of getting over climbs to at least get some intermediates.

blazing_saddles

Yes.
Another jersey non event for this Tour de Tedium.
The words foot and shooting spring to mind.
Can't wait for next Sunday, so I can go on hols....

deal

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Another jersey non event for this Tour de Tedium.
The words foot and shooting spring to mind.

so you think they should forget the rules if they might have some negetive effect on a jersey race ? maybe they should award Evans and Sastre a couple a couple of minutes time bonus before Ventoux

fatblokefromwarwick

As someone who has only followed this years TDF closely for the first time, I don't understand why Mark Cav was disqualified from todays stage. There was no actual contact on his part and it looked like it was him that was blocked from an over taking manoeuvre.
Can someone please explain why this decision was passed and the fact that the chap had already said that an appeal would be overturned. Surely one can't say that before all the sides arguments have been heard!

carl_p

Something to do with him deviating his racing line to block an opponent? Either way it seems a bit weak to me. What's he supposed to do waive him past?

Just wondering how Cav will react to this. He's never completed a 3 weeker tour yet and I wouldn't mind betting he doesn't finish this one now.

afx237vi

Carl_P wrote:

Something to do with him deviating his racing line to block an opponent? Either way it seems a bit weak to me. What's he supposed to do waive him past?

Just wondering how Cav will react to this. He's never completed a 3 weeker tour yet and I wouldn't mind betting he doesn't finish this one now.

He finished the Giro last year. And I'm not sure if his paymasters would be too happy about him forgoing a victory on the Champs-Elysees because Cav is having a sulk.

aurelio_-_banned

Carl_P wrote:

Just wondering how Cav will react to this. He's never completed a 3 weeker tour yet and I wouldn't mind betting he doesn't finish this one now.

Perhaps he will learn, grow and mature. Oh I forgot, there is nothing that he needs to learn about racing...

turkeytickler

i think he's going to have to suck it up and try again next year - at least he's got the engine....i would still like to see beat mummie's boy in paris...

Harry Hill

Cav and his team knew exactly what they were doing. If you can't do the time . . . .

Frank the tank

Did Cav actually take Hushovd's line?

Assuming that's why he was DQ'd

Jimbosome

I guess Thor just isn't fast enough. Cav has already said what his aim is, and it wasn't the Green jersey - sincerely hope he makes it. I don't know why folk have to knock him.

mgcycleguy

Well seems to me they finally worked out how to stop Cav... DQ him :roll:

... shows how brilliant the kid is if they have to resort to this rubbish to stop him. I hope he takes it to Paris and nails it... even if he isnt wearing green at the end... morally he will have won it... it will be a tainted victory for Hushovd, which is a shame because it was looking like an epic battle...

leguape

mgcycleguy wrote:

Well seems to me they finally worked out how to stop Cav... DQ him :roll:

... shows how brilliant the kid is if they have to resort to this rubbish to stop him. I hope he takes it to Paris and nails it... even if he isnt wearing green at the end... morally he will have won it... it will be a tainted victory for Hushovd, which is a shame because it was looking like an epic battle...

So a team that sends Zabel to recce every stage finish didn't know the barriers closed up like that off the slight bend into the line? *Goes long on winged pigs*

mgcycleguy

leguape wrote:

mgcycleguy wrote:

Well seems to me they finally worked out how to stop Cav... DQ him :roll:

... shows how brilliant the kid is if they have to resort to this rubbish to stop him. I hope he takes it to Paris and nails it... even if he isnt wearing green at the end... morally he will have won it... it will be a tainted victory for Hushovd, which is a shame because it was looking like an epic battle...

So a team that sends Zabel to recce every stage finish didn't know the barriers closed up like that off the slight bend into the line? *Goes long on winged pigs*

... yeah so, its Thor's problem not Cav's, ... do we really think Cav needs to put Hushovd into the barriers to beat him ... personally i actually think Hushovd would have won the jersey anyway as he's bound to pick a few points in the Alps, enough to make Paris irrelevent ... but i think winning it this way simply devalues the victory

takethehighroad

Strange that a Tour with four, maybe five wins now looks like a dissapointment...

nick hanson

mgcycleguy wrote:

leguape wrote:

mgcycleguy wrote:

Well seems to me they finally worked out how to stop Cav... DQ him :roll:

... shows how brilliant the kid is if they have to resort to this rubbish to stop him. I hope he takes it to Paris and nails it... even if he isnt wearing green at the end... morally he will have won it... it will be a tainted victory for Hushovd, which is a shame because it was looking like an epic battle...

So a team that sends Zabel to recce every stage finish didn't know the barriers closed up like that off the slight bend into the line? *Goes long on winged pigs*

... yeah so, its Thor's problem not Cav's, ... do we really think Cav needs to put Hushovd into the barriers to beat him ... personally i actually think Hushovd would have won the jersey anyway as he's bound to pick a few points in the Alps, enough to make Paris irrelevent ... but i think winning it this way simply devalues the victory

My thoughts exactly
Total respect to Cav,and as big a fan as I am,I've thought from the start that just going for the stage victories,& expecting the green jersey to follow shows a lack of reserch over past tours.People have won Green in the past with very few or no stage wins,it's about scoring consistant points.
A bit like people winning the Yellow jersey but not winning many/any stages on the way...It happens.
If the tour route dictated that we'd have 8 or more sprints that Cav could well win,then fair enough,bank on stages only,but to say,as he as,that to win stages,& he'll get the green jersey really does show a lack of understanding.
Ps,I do actually hope the result is overturned,as it was too harsh,& Cav DOES get green.

Homer J

What the heck is going on with the tour this year :shock:

kourou

In reply to fatblokefromwarwick (I don't think anyone answered your question?), my understanding is that in a sprint, riders may not 'cut up' other riders deliberately.

Cav came around the right-hand bend with Hushovd behind him and to the right, and then closed in on the barriers to his right. This left Hushovd with nowhere to go as he was committed to his racing line, passing Cav on Cav's right. For Hushovd to go around Cav's left side he'd have had to shave off lots of speed, and wouldn't stand a chance. Secondly it forced Hushovd to brake as Cav moved to the right very close to him.

If Cav had been clearly ahead of Hushovd at that point, moving to the right would have been fine, but Hushovd was partially alongside (I think? In any case that was his trajectory). Also Cav looked to see where Hushovd was before doing this, which suggests it was deliberate, and it is possibly that look that led to the DQ - without it Cav could have claimed ignorance of where Hushovd was.

Columbia claim the barriers were laid out in such a way that they bulged out into the road at that point, but personally I don't buy it. Cav has eyes and could see the barriers, and Hushovd... Plus Zabel goes to the finish to check this sort of thing out.

I am only a lowly cat 4, but I know this rule, and would not have done what Cav did (if I was aware of a rider there), so I'm inclined to think this was the right decision. Whether the punishment fits the crime is another question... Again I'd say fair enough, as it seemed deliberate. Perhaps its a bit like a foul on a footballer in a goal-scoring position being a 'professional' foul, and therefore a red card? Its also possible Hushovd 'looked' for this to happen, like a footballer, but I doubt it personally.

le_grimpeur

IF you look at the nos video (link via steephill) you will see cav check behind twice, changing his line and blocking Thor. It has NOTHING to do with Thor being a Mummies boy and more like Cav acting like a spoilt brat. He can race fair, but looks like he chose not to. If it were the other way round,I'm sure all you English fans would be yelling foul play

stagehopper

le_grimpeur wrote:

IF you look at the nos video (link via steephill) you will see cav check behind twice, changing his line and blocking Thor. It has NOTHING to do with Thor being a Mummies boy and more like Cav acting like a spoilt brat. He can race fair, but looks like he chose not to. If it were the other way round,I'm sure all you English fans would be yelling foul play

Disagree entirely. The barriers crowd in on him and he doesn't block Thor. Which seems to be the view of Robbie McEwen who knows a tad more about sprinting than any of us.

And given there's such a disparate set of views on this, a total DQ seems an entirely disproportionate response.

kourou

le grimpeur - not sure why you get the idea that all us English fans think Cav was acting fairly - I'm English, and I don't. There are only a handful of posts on thi board and seveeral others appear to support Hushovd and may well be English. This isn't a nationalistic thing as far as I can see.

Having said that - and before we get carried away with thinking this makes Cav a bad man - whilst he may be in the wrong on this occasion, he was in a chaotic sprint, and this sort of thing happens all the time. Its no big deal, its been dealt with, lets move on, great stage tomorrow! (unless its another tedius one)

pottssteve

I saw the stage yesterday and it's also good on here:

http://www.steephill.tv/players/tinypic ... id=33c11z5

Cav and Hushovd have a little bump near the start of the clip and then Hushovd drifts to the right. Cavendish looks around both ways to find him but I don't think Cav changes his line much at all. However, the barriers do come out at that point, blocking Hushovd. I don't think Cavendish did much wrong, I also don't think he was sprinting full gas - he knew Hushovd was close behind and was, presumably, trying to hold things up a bit to get Hincapie into yellow.
I agree that this now makes the contest for the green jersey pretty much finished. I'm a fan of Hushovd but this is disappointing.
http://cosmos.bcst.yahoo.com/up/player/ ... l=14578557

It's the cycling equivilent of trying to convince a referee to give a red card in football. Maybe he's sick of coming second...If Hushovd does win green it will be a hollow victory unless the decision is reversed.

Steve

jackhammer111 - banned

aurelio wrote:

Carl_P wrote:

Just wondering how Cav will react to this. He's never completed a 3 weeker tour yet and I wouldn't mind betting he doesn't finish this one now.

Perhaps he will learn, grow and mature. Oh I forgot, there is nothing that he needs to learn about racing...

what's he supposed to learn? to swerve when encountering barriers that jump out?

He rode in a straight line on a course that had a straight line down the middle and a crooked barrier on his right.

Thor can NOT beat Cav in a heads up so he whines his way to the green jersey.

It would have been a lot more interesting to see Cav contest intermediate than this farce.

kozzo

jackhammer111 wrote:

what's he supposed to learn?

That being fast track rider it is not enough to be good road racer.

Apart from his impressive sprint from the bunch he still needs to learn all the rest on the road racing.

At the moment he is just just passenger rider delivered by the team to the finish for the sprint.

aurelio_-_banned

kourou wrote:

Cav came around the right-hand bend with Hushovd behind him and to the right, and then closed in on the barriers to his right. This left Hushovd with nowhere to go as he was committed to his racing line, passing Cav on Cav's right. For Hushovd to go around Cav's left side he'd have had to shave off lots of speed, and wouldn't stand a chance. Secondly it forced Hushovd to brake as Cav moved to the right very close to him.

If Cav had been clearly ahead of Hushovd at that point, moving to the right would have been fine, but Hushovd was partially alongside (I think? In any case that was his trajectory). Also Cav looked to see where Hushovd was before doing this, which suggests it was deliberate, and it is possibly that look that led to the DQ - without it Cav could have claimed ignorance of where Hushovd was.

Exactly so, and even if there was a slight 'bulge' in the right hand barriers Cavendish still moved towards the right away from the centreline. He knew that Hushovd was starting to pass him on the right and must have seen the line of the barriers ahead, so he must have known his line would take Hushovd straight into the barriers. He also moved way to the right of his lead-out man, well before he had any need to. (Other than to block Hushovd that is). His lead out man did keep to a proper line. I posted the following pictures in the stage 14 thread that show all this clearly.

---

After a bit of argy-bargy, with Cavendish leaning on Hushovd with his right shoulder and his team mates blocking on the left, the sprint opens up. Note the large gap on the right between Cavendish and the barrier, which Hushovd has no option but to go for as he is blocked in on the left by Cavendish's team mate and the other rider. Also note that Cavendish is immediately behind his lead out man.



Cavendish looks to the right and sees Hushovd beginning to come past, so he starts his move to shut the door on him.



Notice how far Cavendish has already moved across in this shot as compared to the first image, and how straight the run of the barriers is.



In the next picture Cavendish has shut the door completely. Notice that although the barriers do seem to narrow in from the right very slightly, Cavendish is still much further over to the right with reference to the centre line than in the first and second images. Also note how far over to the right Cavendish is as compared to his leadout man, who has actually kept his line!

This and the next shot also show that most of the apparent curvature of the barriers is not due so much to the road narrowing to the left, but due to it opening up further in the last few metres, immediately after this point. (Also note the curved junction markings on the road that in a moving shot acts to exaggerate the degree to which the barriers seem to 'bulge').



In this last shot we can clearly see how the road widens up further, but now it is only a few metres to the line and is too late for Hushovd to do anything.

wicked

kozzo wrote:

jackhammer111 wrote:

what's he supposed to learn?

That being fast track rider it is not enough to be good road racer.

Apart from his impressive sprint from the bunch he still needs to learn all the rest on the road racing.

At the moment he is just just passenger rider delivered by the team to the finish for the sprint.

What complete and utter tosh! Not a good road racer! I think his palmares clearly shows that he is not lacking in that department.

A passenger (this accusation is used a lot)?. I suppose all the other sprinters now and in the past are different? I do not see them doing anything different. What else is he supposed to do precisely? Win on vontoux? Win a classic? Oh yes he's done that! He is a sprinter FFS, his job is to win sprints. End of.

Let Thor have his green jersey and good luck to him. I personally would rather have have 4 stage wins (5 when they get to paris) than a green jersey with 1 win.

blazing_saddles

deal wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Another jersey non event for this Tour de Tedium.
The words foot and shooting spring to mind.

So you think they should forget the rules if they might have some negetive effect on a jersey race ? maybe they should award Evans and Sastre a couple a couple of minutes time bonus before Ventoux

Don't be daft.
Look, a few years back, this "event" would be laughed out of the judges court.
Now, it seems a few centimetres either way is enough for a DQ.
What next?
Stop the race with a km to go and have the sprinters compete in an ITT?
Turning the sport's hard men, into prima ballerinas.
I have seen more imasculation of the sport, this season, (witness the Giro and Gent-Wevelgem) than at any other time.

I think I complete DQ was OTT. A reversal of their positions would have sufficed and made the result the same as the only other likely outcome.

I think Thor would have won the jersey, overall, without this heavy handed influence.
Now, it's been won on a subjective decision (witness the disagreement here) by a third party.

I say it again. I am no great fan of Cav and Hushovd is, by far, the more complete rider.

cycledad2

I think he does marginally move that way after finding hushvold. I dont think it was delibratly calculated, more a bit of inexperience. He can easily outsprint our and has already proven it. He just started in a bad position and has paid dearly for it. Thors a big boy as well and was trying to overtake through a very narrow space at a bit where the barriers narrowed. He probably knew damn well the chance of what would happen.

I think the penalty has ruined what was going to be a very very close competition that only would have been decided at Paris. Is that proportional?

Anyway i still love you cav! 4 wins. Good luck for the 5th! We'll be chilling the champers!

PS Good luck Bradley!

Tom Butcher

Looked at it lots of times and unless the commissaire has different footage I can't see how he came to DQ Cav on video evidence. I'm a bit sick of Cav's attitude at times too but if that's a DQ then there'd be DQs in most bunch sprints. He's entitled to move slightly to the right to get past his leadout man - the rest of the blocking appears to be due to the barriers moving slightly in - it's not up to Cav to move over to allow for that - yes he would have known Hushovd would be blocked by the barriers but that's the risk you take if you sprint right down the edge of the course.

plectrum

Notice how far Cavendish has already moved across in this shot as compared to the first image, and how straight the run of the barriers is.



In the next picture Cavendish has shut the door completely. Notice that although the barriers do seem to narrow in from the right very slightly, Cavendish is still much further over to the right with reference to the centre line than in the first and second images. Also note how far over to the right Cavendish is as compared to his leadout man, who has actually kept his line!

This and the next shot also show that most of the apparent curvature of the barriers is not due so much to the road narrowing to the left, but due to it opening up further in the last few metres, immediately after this point. (Also note the curved junction markings on the road that in a moving shot acts to exaggerate the degree to which the barriers seem to 'bulge').



NONSENSE, if you check all the riders behind Husvold they also get closer to the barrier showing that the racing line takes you towards the barriers and not that anyone particularly changed their line. also Cav narrowed slightly on standing up to pump on the pedals. This is a natural uncontrolled result of sprinting, it is a bike and not a precision Da Vinci operating robot.