So what's he on now, lads?

edhornby

would he return and still risk it?
Yes - there are still other riders out there still doing the same, and he's looking to reinvigorate his profile ahead of a shot at governor of texas

how?
ALLEGEDLY motorbikes with fridge panniers used to turn up inbetween the 6am doping control and the start of the race to boost the haemocrit in the tour bus - the rules haven't changed so the method could easily continue as before

I have no doubt that he's a talented bike rider and him and bruyneel make some serously good tactical calls, but until we get start line testing there will still be the options there to bend the rules for all the riders, other riders are probably getting away with it too....

nolf

iainf72 wrote:

I hate him.

Black, long socks? I mean, FFS. It's unforgivable.

So true!
And black shoes!

The epitomey of anti euro.

flattythehurdler

pottssteve wrote:

I agree with this guy...

"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us". ~Herman Hesse

I'm not that keen on the taliban stoning women and hanging gay people. I don't think that is part of my psychological makeup. Most people object far more to LA's behaviour as it has been reported than the fact that he may be cheating, along with half the peloton. People aren't half as venomous about big Jan et al.

singlespeedexplosif

Ah, most enlightening. Thanks for clearing that up.
not sure I cleared anything up, but my pleasure all the same. Do you believe in the tooth fairy too?

Why do people always assume those who don't support LA, hate him? I don't. I don't have much respect for him but that's very different from hating someone.

aye, I've always wondered that one too. Have a lot of respect for him, other than the Bassons and Simeoni incidents. No doubt whatsoever that he was one of the finest cyclists of his generation.
It's the myths which surround him rather than the person himself which disappoint me.

Tempestas

Kléber you could be right, but we will never know I think...

I just wish people would think more before jumping on a bandwagon, he has been tested so many times and received no bans or actions against him. I am just hoping for a great race, it has been the best start to a tour for years and the last week looks like it could be a tough one.

finchy

greeny12 wrote:

At the end of the day the only real beneficiary of that split was Lance - who thinks Cav would not have won that stage anyway? Also Columbia would have been a lot less knackered for the TTT as well, possibly pushing Martin into yellow.

I'd say that Cav benefitted massively from that breakaway, taking maximum points, while the likes of Boonen, Freire and Haussler got zilch. This, combined with stage 2, means that of all his serious rivals for the green jersey, only Hushovd (who also benefitted) is within 50 points of him.

Cancellara also gained from the split - if the peloton had stayed together for a bunch sprint, he wouldn't have put 40 seconds into Contador, and wouldn't be wearing yellow today.

Eau Rouge

By the logic that Lance is somehow vindicated by being second to Cancellara after 4 stages, including 2 TT's, are we to therefore assume Fabian would have won numerous Tour de France had he been born 10 years earlier, or that Klöden is one of the greatest riders ever?

deejay

pottssteve wrote:

Kléber,
Are you implying that Mr. Armstrong has access to performance enhancing substances supplied by a doctor without anyone else's knowledge or without the access being open to any other riders? And if so, what kind of substance would, in effect, roll back the years so he can better the performance of much younger professional athletes?

I read somewhere an an interesting idea (assertion, innuendo etc)
I will expand the idea within the Guide lines of the "Sticky" Defamatory Posts (I hope)

Why has he made this return and there has been plenty of speculation about this but no real answer.
The Idea is that the Foundation has developed some more effective Drugs with the $ Millions given to the Charity.
These keep the man alive and as he already has his TUE that allows him to pass the "Cycle Race Testing" as proven by 7 years.

He wants to prove these new Cancer drugs by competing on his bicycle to see how effective they are.

I'm no expert but I thought he had an operation to remove one testicle and the Cancer was further in his body and did I read it had reached the Brain. ???

Therefore he is working closely with the Scientist's in his foundation and maybe Ferrari is involved there too.

I hate Black socks but as I understand his return to Pro Cycle Racing, he is only an unpaid "Guest Rider" to the team and the equipment he is using is his own or belonging to "Livestrong". He won the Nevada Crit wearing the Livestrong colours.
The Hotel Room is his own and guarded by his Minders.
The TTT he had a Hat, Frame and rear disc in the same "Livestrong" colours and I think you will find that the Black Socks are part of the same uniform.

I think this theory fits a lot of your speculations. Maybe Not !!!

dave_1

Lance Armstrong's fitness levels will have dropped so far off in 4 years away that he would not have been able to finish within the time limits on grand tour stages during his retirement had he been dropped into a grand tour...so let us not forget it is a hell of a challenge he set himself to comeback and also to stop the years from slowing him.

He was 2 or 3 levels above everyone in his best years so he has that margin to lose...I guess we will see him have to use good tactics but he will be top 5 or top 3 in GC in week 3 I think.

Kléber

Dave_1 wrote:

He was 2 or 3 levels above everyone in his best years

That appears to be in part thanks to Michele Ferrari. So if age has eroded a level or two, are you assuming he's getting the same "coaching plans" from his pal Dave?

RichN95.

deejay wrote:

I hate Black socks but as I understand his return to Pro Cycle Racing, he is only an unpaid "Guest Rider" to the team and the equipment he is using is his own or belonging to "Livestrong". He won the Nevada Crit wearing the Livestrong colours.
The Hotel Room is his own and guarded by his Minders.
The TTT he had a Hat, Frame and rear disc in the same "Livestrong" colours and I think you will find that the Black Socks are part of the same uniform.

He's been wearing black socks for years.

pottssteve

deejay wrote:

pottssteve wrote:

Kléber,
Are you implying that Mr. Armstrong has access to performance enhancing substances supplied by a doctor without anyone else's knowledge or without the access being open to any other riders? And if so, what kind of substance would, in effect, roll back the years so he can better the performance of much younger professional athletes?

I read somewhere an an interesting idea (assertion, innuendo etc)
I will expand the idea within the Guide lines of the "Sticky" Defamatory Posts (I hope)

Why has he made this return and there has been plenty of speculation about this but no real answer.
The Idea is that the Foundation has developed some more effective Drugs with the $ Millions given to the Charity.
These keep the man alive and as he already has his TUE that allows him to pass the "Cycle Race Testing" as proven by 7 years.

He wants to prove these new Cancer drugs by competing on his bicycle to see how effective they are.

I'm no expert but I thought he had an operation to remove one testicle and the Cancer was further in his body and did I read it had reached the Brain. ???

Therefore he is working closely with the Scientist's in his foundation and maybe Ferrari is involved there too.

I hate Black socks but as I understand his return to Pro Cycle Racing, he is only an unpaid "Guest Rider" to the team and the equipment he is using is his own or belonging to "Livestrong". He won the Nevada Crit wearing the Livestrong colours.
The Hotel Room is his own and guarded by his Minders.
The TTT he had a Hat, Frame and rear disc in the same "Livestrong" colours and I think you will find that the Black Socks are part of the same uniform.

I think this theory fits a lot of your speculations. Maybe Not !!!

Sorry, been away, chatting with the tooth fairy.

You people love a good fairy tale by the sounds of it too. And a Grimm one at that.....

deejay,
Cancer doesn't work like that - you don't keep taking the drugs so you can race with a Brain (sic) tumour...

dave_1

Kléber wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

He was 2 or 3 levels above everyone in his best years

That appears to be in part thanks to Michele Ferrari. So if age has eroded a level or two, are you assuming he's getting the same "coaching plans" from his pal Dave?

he was two or three levels above everyone at 18 from what I read...got more to do with being a fairly good athlete than anything else-though of course we dare not ever admit some of us are just better than others...gotta be doping and cheating related, not just simply the fact of life we all know and had to face at some point in life-that some people are very good at somethings others are not so. Why have people got such a difficulty with this?...the stuff he took, everyone else took, he was the best and by far. He has that margin to drop and still be there, which is what you're seeing now

don key

pottssteve wrote:

I agree with this guy...

"If you hate a person, you hate something in him that is part of yourself. What isn't part of ourselves doesn't disturb us". ~Herman Hesse

Any body can cheat, whether you choose to or not is another step up/down.

pottssteve

Hi Dave,
How was HK?

skavanagh.bikeradar

Are you assuming that everyone is clean there Dave_1?

Kléber

I understand Dave, I was just wondering whether your "levels" included the assistance from Ferrari or not. I get where you're coming from now.

I fully accept there are differences between riders but I'd suggest that an the elite level they are actually miniscule. After 2500km in a Grand Tour, the winning margin is by two minutes. Sastre beat Evans by 58 seconds last year after 87 hours of racing. That's a difference of 0.018%, equivalent to running the 100m in 10 seconds and your rival coming in 10.0018.

This is why souping your blood with EPO or packed cells makes the difference between 1st and 50th place.

dave_1

pottssteve wrote:

Hi Dave,
How was HK?

Wanchai every night Watched Giro stages at White Stag and then onto joe bananas most nights

pottssteve

It can't have been that good if you survived...

andyp

Dave_1 wrote:

he was two or three levels above everyone at 18 from what I read...got more to do with being a fairly good athlete than anything else-though of course we dare not ever admit some of us are just better than others...gotta be doping and cheating related, not just simply the fact of life we all know and had to face at some point in life-that some people are very good at somethings others are not so. Why have people got such a difficulty with this?...the stuff he took, everyone else took, he was the best and by far.

How many times do we have to go through this, if everyone in the field is taking EPO it doesn't equate to a level playing field. Some will respond better than others. LA appears to have been a good responder. Your point about some people being good at things and others not is exactly the same in this case!

The point remains that it was, and still is, against the rules so the 7 Tours he won were done so through cheating.

deejay

Dave_1 wrote:

He was 2 or 3 levels above everyone in his best years so he has that margin to lose

When did you get out of your Pram. ????

Where did those years come from. ?????

Before Cancer he was 2 or 3 levels below the the normal GT Top 10 Standings and was useless at Time Trialing.
You didn't see those years , oh what a shame.

He is Treated for Cancer and then shoots up a mountain like Riis did 3 years earlier.
someone else who couldn't climb mountains or TT.

Definitely a Fairy God mother.

don key

andyp wrote:

Why do people always assume those who don't support LA, hate him? I don't. I don't have much respect for him but that's very different from hating someone.

They are stupid enough to say it but know it's not true, believing that some how no one will notice. When you choose, and you do, to believe the lie you then have to tell a few to be part of the patriotic crew of weaponless pirates the he has on/over board. There is no problem in this for me as it just allows for clear evaluation of the intellect that is making the absurd statement(s).

It is a clear issue, right verses wrong and just like the deadnecks in the deep south in the sixties, there is very little of valid clear argument coming over in face of overwhelming eveidence to the obviousness of the situation with regard to Armstrong regime with regard to duping the fragile minds that need to believe his lines, or needles as is more likely.

pottssteve

don key,

"It is a clear issue, right verses wrong and just like the deadnecks in the deep south in the sixties, there is very little of valid clear argument coming over in face of overwhelming eveidence to the obviousness of the situation with regard to Armstrong regime with regard to duping the fragile minds that need to believe his lines, or needles as is more likely."

Is English your second language....?

don key

deejay wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

He was 2 or 3 levels above everyone in his best years so he has that margin to lose

When did you get out of your Pram. ????

Where did those years come from. ?????

Before Cancer he was 2 or 3 levels below the the normal GT Top 10 Standings and was useless at Time Trialing.
You didn't see those years , oh what a shame.

He is Treated for Cancer and then shoots up a mountain like Riis did 3 years earlier.
someone else who couldn't climb mountains or TT.

Definitely a Fairy God mother.

That's the best summing up I have ever seen.Well done.

don key

[quote="Dave_1"...so let us not forget it is a hell of a challenge he set himself to comeback and also to stop the years from slowing him.[/quote]

It's not the years, it is in fact the ears, they have grown in proportion to the allegations regarding his manycure regime, aerodynamics have done with the ears what years could only grope for.

Cheshley

The Lance threads on this forum never fail to make me chuckle.

Can all the haters provide any evidence of drug use of a positive test in his career?

Why is it so hard for people to even contemplate the idea that he might just be THAT good...?

Kléber

Cheshley, I don't hate Lance. I'm just a doubter and believe the decisive factor behind his success was Michele Ferrari. For what it's worth, I think Pantani, Ullrich, Basso and others were cheating too, it's nothing specific against Armstrong. Anyway enough about me, read this:

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interview ... l-ashenden

And once you've worked your way through to the end, come back and share your views.

RedJohn

Sorry, as a bit of a newbie to road riding, and a sometime serious athlete in another sport, I find this somewhat annoying.

Has Armstrong ever been tested for EPO or anything else performance enhancing?
(Er, yes, maybe once or twice ...)
Has he ever been found to have taken anything he shouldn't?
(err, no ...)
Do the testers know what they're doing?
(I think they may have figured it out by now).

So, on what basis is anyone accusing him of cheating?

Oh yeah ... he's successful ... that looks like the ol' green eyes to me.

As with anything else, there's a normal distribution curve of ability, a traditional bell curve. So before anyone does anything, there will be a very small number of people who come in at the far right hand end of the curve, who simply have a much greater natural ability than others. If one of those people is also driven to work very, very hard to achieve what he can, he's going to be exceptional.

Just as with Tiger Woods in golf, if you get someone with the right natural abilities, who then works extremely hard to make the most of those abilities, that person's going to outshine his or her peers. And I don't think Armstrong is as far ahead of other cyclists as Tiger Woods is ahead of other golfers, although that's obviously open to debate and unaswerable objectively.

I think the reason Armstrong gets accused of taking drugs while Woods doesn't is primarily that cycling is a sport where drug taking is, or (optimistically) was, pretty common, which is not generally thought to be the case in golf.
Tiger Woods seems to be a much more likeable person too, the reverse of which undoubtedly influences many against Armstrong.

iainf72

RedJohn wrote:

Sorry, as a bit of a newbie to road riding, and a sometime serious athlete in another sport, I find this somewhat annoying.

Has Armstrong ever been tested for EPO or anything else performance enhancing?
(Er, yes, maybe once or twice ...)
Has he ever been found to have taken anything he shouldn't?
(err, no ...)
Do the testers know what they're doing?
(I think they may have figured it out by now).

How many tests did Kohl fail? 1? How many should he, by his own admission, have failed? 100.

Did Ullrich fail a test? No. Was he doping. Yes. Basso, same. Etc etc etc.

There is plenty of evidence Lance did some stuff. If you choose to accept it is another story. All not failing a dope test proves is you didn't fail a test. Doesn't prove you're clean.

daviesee

"The point remains that it was, and still is, against the rules so the 7 Tours he won were done so through cheating."

Sorry, but this is pure hypothesis, conjecture and circumstance.

He has never, ever, been caught cheating.

I suspect that his leap in performance was not only to losing upper body mass but I can't prove it. Until I can, I have to give the man the benefit of the doubt.

I read these posts looking for the hard evidence and find it ultimately a waste of time.

If no-one has hard evidence, give it a rest, please.

If someone has hard evidence then present it, humiliate him, ruin his reputation and get it over with.