Marmotte 2010..

24

Comments

  • maddog 2
    maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    I thought about this but figured that maybe some of the 'non-finishers' were actually down as 'randoneurs', and thus didn't receive an official time, even though they rode and finished the ride. This could be b@llox of course.

    My mate was down as a randoneur as he hadn't produced his doctors cert at the start.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • bs147
    bs147 Posts: 164
    Due to sustaining transmission damage in a crash descending the Glandon (Jonny Dutchman knocked me off) I struggled round and arrived at Bourg at 6.05. I was told to hand my chip over but was allowed to continue up as a randonneur. Got up in just under 2 hours but no official time or classification - there were loads of us like this which probably accounts for a large percentage of the 'non finishers'.

    I was suprised by how many were pulling out though - lots of people being collected on the route by friends/family/helpers - from the Telegraph onwards.

    I have to say I thoroughly enjoyed the event and will definately be back! I rode up Alpe D'Huez again the next day having fixed my gears - I had to beat the time I registered during the event - and did by 40 mins!
  • musto_skiff
    musto_skiff Posts: 394
    Anyone got a gathered GPX file from the event that that could share?
  • cakewalk
    cakewalk Posts: 220
    mark_d wrote:
    Yep, the Dragon ride and any other long sportives with long climbs will probably help. I don't think doing hill reps on short hills is very useful. The Marmotte is 3 very long periods of climbing and two descents. What counts is being able to produce enough power over a long enough period of time to climb 1200m in one go, not being able to do 5 minutes of climbing ten times.

    You can train this by spending an hour or two working continuously at the level you hope to climb at. This doesn't need to be uphill. I often do a 75 to 90 minute above aerobic to sub-threshold effort which is about where I am while climbing. For me this is a flat ride at about 22mph, HR 155 bpm. It's enough to make talking a bit tricky but not so hard I can't hold it for hours.

    This said, some hill intervals might well help raise your power at threshold, which might help with your overall fitness. By this I mean 3 or 5 *hard* efforts on hills -- grinding out lots of slow climbs won't do this.

    Different people suit different plans but perhaps this'll give you some ideas.

    Lastly, enjoy it. It will end, and it'll be a great achievement.

    completely agree.

    set your turbo trainer to max, and spend and hour pushing a big gear in 75-85% max heart rate. Repeat 5 times a week.

    I probably cycled less than 700 miles on my bike this year (no time) but managed a silver (just!) in my second year of cycling. I finished ~ 4200 but managed ~ 2000 on the ascent of the Alpe D - which shows just how lazy I was on the way round - but also how I'd managed to get to be OK at hills. Train for what you need to do - in the case of the Marmotte this is a long slog.
    "I thought of it while riding my bicycle."
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    musto_skiff wrote:
    Anyone got a gathered GPX file from the event that that could share?

    No but there are plenty here


    http://www.mapmyride.com/search?txtLocation=france&txtKeyword=marmotte&lstSortBy=cs.view_count+desc&lstDistanceMin=&lstDistanceMax=&lstRatingMin=&lstRatingMax=&lstRouteTypeID=&btnSearch=SEARCH+%3E
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • musto_skiff
    musto_skiff Posts: 394
    bahzob wrote:
    musto_skiff wrote:
    Anyone got a gathered GPX file from the event that that could share?

    No but there are plenty here


    http://www.mapmyride.com/search?txtLocation=france&txtKeyword=marmotte&lstSortBy=cs.view_count+desc&lstDistanceMin=&lstDistanceMax=&lstRatingMin=&lstRatingMax=&lstRouteTypeID=&btnSearch=SEARCH+%3E

    CHeers; quite a range of distances ... looking at them seems 108.3 is the most common distance and as susch I guess the correct route.
  • Hugh A
    Hugh A Posts: 1,189
    Here's my two penn'orth for what it's worth:

    I'm no speed merchant, being somewhat more senior and spent a leisurely 11 hours to finish and it was a hard long day. The Galibier, coming so soon after the Telegraph and going up well over 2200m where I normally start to get an altitude problem, was definately the toughest section. After that, if you are within a reasonable time, you know you are going to get up Alpe d'Huez, even if it is a hot slog - which it was.

    The Dragon climbs of the Bwlch and Rhigos are quite good as training but not as steep or nearly as long as those in the Marmotte so you would need to ride them fairly hard to get a similar effect. Riding hard on the flat is good.

    Ideally you would try and keep up your Summer mileage in the Winter - doesn't have to be fast but makes a big difference to be ready for the time spent. The Dragon was longer than the Marmotte this year but took me 3 1/2 hours less.

    If short of time or no cycling to work then early morning turbo sessions each day (don't have to be hard - a substitute base mileage) help to build up fitness.

    As has been said - riding on the flat at higher effort rates is as good as going up hill.

    We didn't find drinving down to be too bad but our mates who had gone on the previous Sunday and had time to settle in and ride up some of the climbs round there probably had the best idea. We stayed in Bourg d'Oisans which was fine and turned out to be 50m from where we needed to line up for the start. Also much easier to ride out from than Alpe d'Huez.

    Don't do 'carbo-loading' starting days before - you'll only get fatter like me! The day before will be fine.

    I would also agree that going too hard on the Glandon is likely to be a mistake. This is the time to be riding within yourself and finish this part still strong

    Enjoy the scenery - it is spectacular - the Galibier with thunder rolling around was quite something!

    BTW not sure there is anything worse with latex tubes than butyl. I've used both, but check your brakes are not going to rub on the tyres and brake hard and late where possible - you will find that this is not always on without closed roads and there is often someone in front of you gripping the brakes all the way down. You just have to be aware of those around and wait till it's safe before passing.

    A lot of the car traffic in the latter stages was from riders who had been picked up en route and probably explains some of the DNF. It's hard to say whether they plan in advance to only do part of the ride or have friends ready to pick them up just in case their time is not quite what they wanted.
    I\'m sure I had one of those here somewhere
  • IanTrcp
    IanTrcp Posts: 761
    elastigirl72 wrote:
    ....my average heart rate ended up at 136!

    Congrats on your ride. If you don't mind me asking, what is 136 as a % of your MaxHR?
  • elastigirl72
    elastigirl72 Posts: 12
    IanTrcp wrote:
    elastigirl72 wrote:
    ....my average heart rate ended up at 136!

    Congrats on your ride. If you don't mind me asking, what is 136 as a % of your MaxHR?

    I don't think it has too much reflection on anything - I think it was just low because I pretty much walked Alpe D'huez! But resting is around 32 and maximum I have seen this year has been 176. Whilst I was still cycling before dying I was trying to keep below 155 - my max during the ride was 163 (once!) but next time I will try to keep my HR below 150 and that way I might not blow up so spectacularly on the Mt Ventoux (if I do etape!)
  • Roadie Rods
    Roadie Rods Posts: 63
    Loads of good advice here. If I may, I'd like to add a couple of things.

    King of the Mountains and Velo Ventoux (?) always seem to be well thought of by people who've used them. I used Baxter last year, and thought they were rubbish. I did it on my own this year, and it was much better... as long as your French is good enough to negotiate the very poor website! Plenty of people on here know the drills though, so there'll always be people to help you through.

    I've stayed on the Alpe and in Bourg. I'd definitely recommend Bourg - but book early (ie Feb) as accommodation gets filled quickly... 7000 riders plus families, friends etc descend for the weekend.

    This year I completed the course in 7hr40mn, having also ridden the other 3 events that week. Having a week to acclimatise to the heat definitely helped - the temperature reached 38 degrees on the Alpe in the afternoon. If you haven't time to be there the whole week, I would definitely advise arriving by Weds, leaving you time to get in a couple of gentle rides (ie Col d'Ornan, and the Alpe) so you've ridden a couple of long climbs. There is no way of preparing yourself for the Galibier without riding it - nearly 3 hours of climbing if you're aiming for 8-9 hours (which is generally considered a good time to get round in). For me the turbo trainer was the best way to prepare - you can find your power/HR and stick out it, pushing a reasonab;le climbing cadence... as well as experiencing the heat problems (if you use a small fan!!).

    As for actually on the day, as has already been said, it's essentially a series of efforts - one for each climb. The key is to take it easy, especially on the Glandon, and make sure you don't push yourself beyond the comfort zone on the Galibier or Telegraphe. I made the mistake last year of going to hard on the Glandon and paid for it 4km from the top of the Alpe, this year I got up the Alpe in about an hour. You'll lose more time by blowing up than if you take it easy at the start.

    The most important thing is to enjoy it. The scenary is stunning, and the atmosphere is brilliant 8)
    We are all full of weakness and errors; let us mutually pardon each other our follies - it is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire
  • stagger
    stagger Posts: 116
    ta for all the advice folks! and that detailed marmotte guide by bahzob is very useful indeed.

    Just need to put in into practice and roll on next year..
  • Will Young
    Will Young Posts: 26
    Yes thanks for producing the guide bahzob. It was my first Marmotte and I found it very helpful - your advice helped me scrape a Gold! In terms of training, next year I'll do what a friend of mine did; hours on the turbo in a big gear. it's the ony way I'm afraid to get to the constant effort you need for something like the Galibier.
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    Will Young wrote:
    Yes thanks for producing the guide bahzob. It was my first Marmotte and I found it very helpful - your advice helped me scrape a Gold! In terms of training, next year I'll do what a friend of mine did; hours on the turbo in a big gear. it's the ony way I'm afraid to get to the constant effort you need for something like the Galibier.

    Thanks, glad you found it helpful and congratulations on getting a Gold.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    Will Young wrote:
    Yes thanks for producing the guide bahzob. It was my first Marmotte and I found it very helpful - your advice helped me scrape a Gold! In terms of training, next year I'll do what a friend of mine did; hours on the turbo in a big gear. it's the ony way I'm afraid to get to the constant effort you need for something like the Galibier.

    Sorry, but that's not sensible advice. It may have worked for your friend but it doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Being able to sustain a high power output on a climb like the Galibier can be hard to do in the UK, where there are no hills where you can replicate this, but you can do it on the flat by riding for anywhere between 20-60 minutes at a high rate of intensity.

    I've not ridden on a turbo trainer for 10 years but managed to get gold in the Marmotte 3 years ago and have ridden dozens of other continental sportives in that time.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    I'm with andyp. Climbing should not be about grinding your way to the top, it should be about pedalling as smooth as you can. Of course some of this goes out the window on the Galibier but the aim should be for efficiency instead of wresting your bike. It's fitness that will get you to the top of the Alpe with ease, not leg strength. Do you think Alberto Contador, Andy Schleck or even Thor Hushovd and Tom Boonen spend the winter grinding on the turbo :wink:
  • genki
    genki Posts: 305
    andyp wrote:
    Will Young wrote:
    Yes thanks for producing the guide bahzob. It was my first Marmotte and I found it very helpful - your advice helped me scrape a Gold! In terms of training, next year I'll do what a friend of mine did; hours on the turbo in a big gear. it's the ony way I'm afraid to get to the constant effort you need for something like the Galibier.

    Sorry, but that's not sensible advice. It may have worked for your friend but it doesn't necessarily work for everyone. Being able to sustain a high power output on a climb like the Galibier can be hard to do in the UK, where there are no hills where you can replicate this, but you can do it on the flat by riding for anywhere between 20-60 minutes at a high rate of intensity.

    I've not ridden on a turbo trainer for 10 years but managed to get gold in the Marmotte 3 years ago and have ridden dozens of other continental sportives in that time.

    I think turbo work is probably a closer replication of the sort of effort needed for a big climb like the Galibier or ADH than flat road work at a high intensity. I do time trials from 10 to 100 miles, road-races, high-intensity training rides and lots of turbo work. The only time I've felt remotely like I was climbing a long alpine ascent was doing long turbo sessions. It's not just the power that you need to produce, it's the way the resistance works. On the flat you can ease off the pedals for a few seconds and the speed won't change much. On the turbo, it feels like your constantly fighting to stop the thing slowing down, much more like the fight against gravity on a big climb. Get the tacx video called Alpine Classic and ride the Telegraph, Galibier, descend to Bourg and climb ADH without stopping and after 4hrs you'll feel not dissimilar to how you'll be at the end of the Marmotte.
  • grimpeur
    grimpeur Posts: 230
    Kléber wrote:
    I'm with andyp. Climbing should not be about grinding your way to the top:

    Works for Dave Lloyd! :wink:
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    I'm not disputing it works for some people Genki. But for some the idea of 4 hours on a turbo would be enough for them to abandon cycling for ever.

    Riding the Marmotte takes a level of commitment. RIding for 4 hours on a turbo takes a level of commitment that I, for one, think is too far. :shock:

    The point being, you don't have to resort to using a turbo trainer to get fit enough to complete the Marmotte. Instead you should do what works for you.
  • jantriingon
    jantriingon Posts: 7
    Loved the Marmotte - no wind, hot day and the drama of thunder threatening. Took it very easy on Glandon and Telegraph, had to work on Galibier but only did "just enough" to get over it then finally caned it up the Alpe as hard as I could and did it in 1h 23m to finish in a total of 10h 12m for gold. All training was in Cambridgeshire plus a couple of hilly sportives (Cheshire Cat and Gran Fondo Cymru). I hate turbo training so only do that in winter but I did a fair amount of hour long hard efforts and that worked fine. Train for feeding and drinking on the ride too. I think do what you enjoy and you'll be successful.
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    grimpeur wrote:
    Kléber wrote:
    I'm with andyp. Climbing should not be about grinding your way to the top:

    Works for Dave Lloyd! :wink:

    I'm a great believer that there isnt one rule that works for all and some people are best grinding their way up climbs and others spinning.

    However as a general rule for events like Marmotte with multiple massive climbs I think spinning rules over grinding Sadly I dont think most riders give themselves the option of finding out what types of climber they are because they overgear their bikes and dont take account of the effect of fatigue.

    Take a look at the excellent video from Russell here, and see how the cadence of the riders slows with each climb so by time get to Alp many are struggling around 50rpm
    http://www.grenoblecycling.com/

    This really is too low and is part of the reason the later climbs, Alp especially, feel so hard. Most of the riders in this video plus many of the others I saw on the Marmotte would benefit from extra gears if only to see if changing down and upping cadence would make things easier. My guess is that for many it would.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • grimpeur
    grimpeur Posts: 230
    Perhaps, but sometimes if you have a lower gear it just means you pedal at the same cadence but go slower! It is quite difficult to mantain a high cadence when fatigued, but then again it could be argued that if you rode with a high cadence for the entire ride then you wouldn't be fatigued in the first place. :wink:

    Different strokes for different folks, it is just a case of finding what works for you. The biggest mistake I think people make is under-estimating the gradients. Folks should head out there a week or so before and do a few days of decent climbs at the start of the week. It really does help.
  • chaletverney
    chaletverney Posts: 6
    Hi there - well having ridden the course in the event and a number of times training I would suggest you ride the course or at least a significant part of it (maybe the last half if you don't have the endurance for the whole thing) at least once prior to the event. All time dependent of course but the climbs are so much harder than the UK that you can't beat the real thing to familiarise yourself with the terrain proper.
    A hilly training camp mid season (May/June)... e.g. Murcia / Sierra Nevada way is a good idea with excellent weather normally ... 2 weeks better than one of course and be fit in the first place otherwise you may burn out instead of benefit!

    There are so many pieces of advice myself and others can give you - to be honest though it is a little foolhardy as only you know your level and lifestyle ... best advice anyone can give really is to hook up with a qualified coach (British Cycling offers a number of contacts here, some may even be happy to help for free!)

    All the best for next year - if you are considering accom v.near to the course then I have a chalet just off the col du glandon climb! - www.vaujanychalet.com

    Best wishes,

    Martyn
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,450
    grimpeur wrote:
    Different strokes for different folks, it is just a case of finding what works for you. The biggest mistake I think people make is under-estimating the gradients. Folks should head out there a week or so before and do a few days of decent climbs at the start of the week. It really does help.
    That's very sound advice, especially for anyone who is doing the Marmotte as their first Alpine event.
  • bahzob
    bahzob Posts: 2,195
    grimpeur wrote:
    Perhaps, but sometimes if you have a lower gear it just means you pedal at the same cadence but go slower! It is quite difficult to mantain a high cadence when fatigued, but then again it could be argued that if you rode with a high cadence for the entire ride then you wouldn't be fatigued in the first place. :wink:

    Different strokes for different folks, it is just a case of finding what works for you. The biggest mistake I think people make is under-estimating the gradients. Folks should head out there a week or so before and do a few days of decent climbs at the start of the week. It really does help.

    Not saying pedal with high cadence. Just avoid a very low one.

    My rpms for the climbs were mid 80s for Glandon/Telegraph, mid 70s for Galibier/Alpe (with 34x27). This isnt high, in fact for pros would call it "grinding". However was still way more than pretty much everyone I saw.

    Or at least put enough gears on bike to give yourself a choice. Most people on the Alpe were in lowest gear and didnt have any option to change down and speed up revs.

    PS Agree with your point re doing the climbs beforehand.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • cookiemonster
    cookiemonster Posts: 668
    I managed 8:16 this year; I started cycling last year so pretty happy with my time

    I'd agree with both views above - I added a 28 cog on the back of my 12-25 to give a lowest 34-28 which I used on both the galibier and the alpe, When things got a little tough I stuck it there and then judged my effort on heart rate, which helped me to keep spinning along. There were a load of folk with high gearing struggling to maintain any kind of rhythm

    I'd also agree with turbos or spin bikes for training; they're a great way to get a constant intensity hour or so, especially when you're time or road limited (like in the centre of London). For the marmotte I did a fair amount of 1 hour sessions at 160bpm rotating 5 minutes standing, 5 minutes seated slow cadence, 5 minutes seated spinning. I couldnt face 4 hours or a turbo/spin bike and I dont think thats _all_ the trianing you should do, but I do think that they're invaluable for replicating the constant steady climbs.

    elastigirl72: were you wearing the australia top and rapha shorts? if so i tried to keep up with you on the galibier... not for very long though... :)

    jon
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    What I notice is the large number of people who do the major events like the Marmotte or the Étape as their first experience of these monster climbs. It's like someone deciding to try mountaineering and heading off to tackle Everest or the Eiger.

    It's still early summer, there's plenty of time before the autumn to fit in a week or a long weekend and tour about on the bike sampling some 10, 15 or 20 km ascents in the Alps or Pyrenees before the onset of autmn and winter training.
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • grimpeur
    grimpeur Posts: 230
    cookiemonster wrote:
    elastigirl72: were you wearing the australia top and rapha shorts? if so i tried to keep up with you on the galibier... not for very long though... :)

    Ahhhh, if that was you elastigirl72, and don't take this the wrong way, but I spent much of the descent of the Glandon looking at your ass. :wink: You're a pretty decent descender, I stuck close to your back wheel on the way down contemplating what the Aussie equivalent of Rapha might be! Think we where probably in the big group in the valley as well on the drag to the start of the Telegraphé.
  • Le Commentateur
    Le Commentateur Posts: 4,099
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dRCmO8lsUp4
    Un uomo solo al commando
  • sherer
    sherer Posts: 2,460
    missed the Marmotte but did the Vaujany event the week before going over a few climbs. First time in the Alps and nothing can prepare you for a 20k climb that never ends with no rest. You can't get this in the UK and I wasn't prepared for this at all.

    Would really recommend everyone goes out a week before and actually tries some climbs and then gives themselves time to recover before the event.

    As for grinding away or spinning it is just a matter of finding out what works for you. I did the Alps on a triple with a 27 on the back and still wished I had a lower gear to go down to
  • Marcof11
    Marcof11 Posts: 7
    I am 61 and did La marmotte this year for the first time in 11h 15' .
    My training was not very well organized and in retrospective I agree with what mark-d said. The climbs are hard and last 90 plus minutes so you have to replicate that either with turbo trainer or fast flat runs.UK short hills won't do. You have a bit of the rest downhill and then another climb. Again worth replicating that also. The dragonride is worth doing it but is nothing like La marmotte. I did it in 7h35' to give you an idea of the difference in effort required.
    A couple of further tips. Lose as much weight as you can. Try this experiment: load a rucksack with 6 kg of books and ride uphill all day and see the difference a stone more or less can make!.
    For you knees try chondrotin and glucosamine supplements like Jointace from boots.It seems to help in my case.
    I will be back next year to try to improve my time.
    I ll see you there!
    good luck
    Marco

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