*Spoliers* Tour de France talk *Spoilers*

jedster

I think it's because he's such a slight fellow. Very little wind resistance.

THat must be it. It's just amazing that all those other scrawny little climbers didnt realise they could have been TT champs too if the only tried...

risi

Contador takes it, just. Wiggins back up to 4th, 9s behind Armstrong, only 2 in front of Kloden.

DonDaddyD

linsen wrote:

Dear DDD

I wasn't having a pop at you - you will notice I called it a typo as opposed to a mistake.

It is my problem that it grates on me when I see it, and only you, thread-starter, can edit it (I think)

Now that Attica has made some pseudo-convincing reason for keeping it that way, I suppose I am outnumbered.....

Dear Linsen,

I wasn't being defensive, I was being unashamedly flirting with you - you will notice the pusedo code << engage DonDon >> and << disengage DonDon >> as an indication of this.

However, humbled as I am at your mighty, I guess my meagre efforts of flattering were overlooked.

DonDaddyD

Anyway, I shall be having my own little TT racing home to watch tonights show at 7....

Yesterday I missed it by three hrs...

jedster

so how do we see this for Ventoux and the GC?

Contador and Andy Schleck fixed in 1 and 2 with a four way shoot out for the third podium place?

Or could gaps open up on the final climb of the next stage?

bigmat

biondino wrote:

"What resonance does the phrase 'previously undetectable' have with you this afternoon, Alberto?"

He's just taking the **** isn't he? Lets see how he gets on without Bruyneel's special sauce next year, should be very interesting.

tailwindhome

1. CONTADOR Alberto 21 ASTANA 73h 15' 39"
2. SCHLECK Andy + 04' 11"
3. ARMSTRONG Lance + 05' 25"
4. WIGGINS Bradley 05' 36"
5. KLÖDEN Andréas 23 + 05' 38"
6. SCHLECK Frank + 05' 59"



Astana team tactics could be interesting on Ventoux

Andy Schleck has to have a go at Contador, nothing to lose. If Contador and the Schlecks head up the road will Kloden be allowed to go to or will he be pacing LA up the climb.

DonDaddyD

Why is it when someone is the best at something or better than everyone else its automaticallly assumed that they're cheating and in this instance via the use of drugs?

Contador may just be that awesome. Like the massive improvement and impossible weight-loss Wiggins made is just down to dedication.

Just believe.

tailwindhome

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why is it when someone is the best at something or better than everyone else its automaticallly assumed that they're cheating and in this instance via the use of drugs?

Contador may just be that awesome. Like the massive improvement and impossible weight-loss Wiggins made is just down to dedication.

Just believe.

I fear it's a bit of Johnny Foreigner Syndrome. (Surprised at Biondino especially)

Wiggins rides a great tour and its due to weight watchers

Everyone else is on drugs


WheezyMcChubby + 6 months reserves the right to edit this post to "I tried to tell you"

cjcp

jedster wrote:

so how do we see this for Ventoux and the GC?

Contador and Andy Schleck fixed in 1 and 2 with a four way shoot out for the third podium place?

Or could gaps open up on the final climb of the next stage?

A Schleck has to attack (and AC has to be abducted by aliens) if he wants to win. Nothing to lose. Frank to help. And everyone else to go with them, inc LA. LA just has to cover to stay on the podium.

Wiggins has to attack if he wants a podium place. If I were Wiggo, I'd try to put LA in front of me to save energy because LA wants the podium and will want to make sure he covers attacks by Schleck.

shoulder_of_orion

Why doesn't Andy Schleck get brother Frank to attack Alberto Contador?

By this, I mean physically attack him so that he cannot ride his bike anymore, then Andy will win. Either that or drop some EPO into his bidon.

risi

jedster wrote:

so how do we see this for Ventoux and the GC?

Contador and Andy Schleck fixed in 1 and 2 with a four way shoot out for the third podium place?

Or could gaps open up on the final climb of the next stage?

I thought the former, but having just looked at tomorrow, I hadn't realised that it was a cat 2 climb near the finish. If any of those in 3rd-6th place sense some weakness in the others there could be an opportunity to make up some time there.
If not, Armstrong & Kloden to mark Wiggins/Frank Schleck up Ventoux. Kloden will only be allowed to go if Armstrong blows an it looks like a non-Astana rider would be 3rd on the podium.
A Schleck & Bertie in their own battle, which Bertie won't lose.

BTW I replied to your PM, but its just sitting in my outbox...

jedster

What struck me about the TT is this:

Contador LOOKS like a brilliant climber - if you were going to design one, it would look like him. He doesn't look like a brilliant TTer - power to weight is much less important than power in a TT. Technically power to frontal area should matter but power typically rises much more with size than frontal area does (unless you are a very odd shape!).

His TTing looks odd in the same way that a marathon runner winning the 100m looks odd (alright, I exaggerate to make a point, a lot, but you know what I mean).

By comparison, Wiggins transformation from a pursuit/TT rider to a competitive but not dominant climber looks much more in line with his physiology to me.

Having said all that, I do accept that this TT is after nearly 3 weeks of hard racing in the mountains and Contador's climbing ability may just mean that he has much more in reserve than the more natural TTers.


J

cjcp

DonDaddyD wrote:

Just believe.

LA said something very similar in his 2005 podium speech when he pointed to the other two riders on the podium and asked people to believe in the riders.

The other two riders on the podium were Ullrich and Basso.

The KoM jersey was won by The Chicken.

So, what was LA's question again?

greg66_tri_v2.0

DonDaddyD wrote:

Why is it when someone is the best at something or better than everyone else its automaticallly assumed that they're cheating and in this instance via the use of drugs?

Contador may just be that awesome. Like the massive improvement and impossible weight-loss Wiggins made is just down to dedication.

Just believe.

I have to admit, that was exactly my view of Armstrong during his winning streak. I always regarded the "but he is/must be/has always been a doper" crew as wilful and deranged.

I fear, however, I have become wilful and deranged about AC.

Not many climbers have shown they can TT: take one A Schleck, for example.

Of course, Pantani TT'd like a demon the year he won...

cjcp

Greg66 wrote:

I have to admit, that was exactly my view of Armstrong during his winning streak. I always regarded the "but he is/must be/has always been a doper" crew as wilful and deranged.

+1.

I remain, however, prepared to believe that if there are intellectual geniuses out there, there will be motoric geniuses (I think that's the right expression?).

il_principe

cjcp wrote:

Greg66 wrote:

I have to admit, that was exactly my view of Armstrong during his winning streak. I always regarded the "but he is/must be/has always been a doper" crew as wilful and deranged.

+1.

I remain, however, prepared to believe that if there are intellectual geniuses out there, there will be motoric geniuses (I think that's the right expression?).

Well we know from other sports that there are: D Beckham/C Ronalds's ability to deliver the perfect ball, Tiger Woods, Usain Bolt (I hope!) etc. Look at old Beryl Burton!

biondino

Wheezy, my doubts are based on the massive unlikeliness of a rider like Contador being SO MUCH better than everyone else that not only does he win everything in the mountains (where his build is clearly ideally suited), but he beats everyone in a discipline where his stature should mean he can't keep up with the true powermongers in the peloton. There are limits to what even the most perfectly prepared human body can do, and it seems AC must be close to exceeding these limits. Plenty have done it before, and most of them have been demonstrated to be cheating.

This is a man, remember, who climbed 5 mountains yesterday and finished ahead of the entire field. It's not like he was saving himself (unlike, without doubt, Cancellara, who is built like the classical TTer).

That's why I'm doubtful. It's just TOO good.

bigmat

There is circumstancial evidence surrounding F Schleck, Contador, Armstrong, Kloeden, and that's just looking at the top 6! If you've followed professional cycling for a few years I think you learn to smell a rat and can see when certain performances are too good to be true.

There is, on the other hand, nothing on Wiggo, in fact on the contrary everything suggests he is clean (his vehement criticism of drugs, his choice of Garmin as a team) except his improved performance, which I guess looking at it objectively is suspicious.

Re Bertie - how can a guy with his build put 30 seconds into Cancellara, in 18km of flat road? He's just taking the ****.

greg66_tri_v2.0

cjcp wrote:

jedster wrote:

so how do we see this for Ventoux and the GC?

Contador and Andy Schleck fixed in 1 and 2 with a four way shoot out for the third podium place?

Or could gaps open up on the final climb of the next stage?

A Schleck has to attack (and AC has to be abducted by aliens) if he wants to win. Nothing to lose. Frank to help. And everyone else to go with them, inc LA. LA just has to cover to stay on the podium.

Wiggins has to attack if he wants a podium place. If I were Wiggo, I'd try to put LA in front of me to save energy because LA wants the podium and will want to make sure he covers attacks by Schleck.

I think A Schleck will settle for second. He has too much to lose by attacking and then blowing up.

I see the fight being for third place: LA, AK, BW, and Frank. That pretty much is a first to the top wins the prize.

On form so far, I'd put them in the following order on the climb: Frank, Kloden, Lance, Bradley. Frank has to take 35s out of LA to podium. With Andy's help, and LA isolated, that's doable. With Kloden and AC around, it looks a lot less doable to me.

Kloden v Armstrong in a straight fight over the last 1000m? Probably give it to Kloden, and he'd probably take 14s out of LA over that distance.

Have to say, I see LA and Bradders not being on the podium in Paris.

greg66_tri_v2.0

biondino wrote:

Wheezy, my doubts are based on the massive unlikeliness of a rider like Contador being SO MUCH better than everyone else that not only does he win everything in the mountains (where his build is clearly ideally suited), but he beats everyone in a discipline where his stature should mean he can't keep up with the true powermongers in the peloton. There are limits to what even the most perfectly prepared human body can do, and it seems AC must be close to exceeding these limits. Plenty have done it before, and most of them have been demonstrated to be cheating.

This is a man, remember, who climbed 5 mountains yesterday and finished ahead of the entire field. It's not like he was saving himself (unlike, without doubt, Cancellara, who is built like the classical TTer).

That's why I'm doubtful. It's just TOO good.

You'll like this then: Article link

il_principe

biondino wrote:

Wheezy, my doubts are based on the massive unlikeliness of a rider like Contador being SO MUCH better than everyone else that not only does he win everything in the mountains (where his build is clearly ideally suited), but he beats everyone in a discipline where his stature should mean he can't keep up with the true powermongers in the peloton. There are limits to what even the most perfectly prepared human body can do, and it seems AC must be close to exceeding these limits. Plenty have done it before, and most of them have been demonstrated to be cheating.

This is a man, remember, who climbed 5 mountains yesterday and finished ahead of the entire field. It's not like he was saving himself (unlike, without doubt, Cancellara, who is built like the classical TTer).

That's why I'm doubtful. It's just TOO good.

I dunno Mark. If you think how many people in the world cycle then the likes of AC are already statistical blips anyway, he's at the pinnacle of his sport. Regardless of whether LA doped or not in the past, I doubt very much that he's doping this time and he's not lagging far behind AC - amazing really considered his age and lack of training over recent years. For me that's evidence that he really was that good, and remember he won TT's and mountain climbs many times. History always throws up special riders - Merckx, Indurain (SP) etc. Even if you consider that most riders dope, these guys were still better than everyone else. AC has won the tour and won TT's before so it's not completely unbelievable...

biondino

Yeah, there's margin for error, Jash, which is why I'm suspicious but not declaring his guilt from the rooftops.

bigmat

Greg66 wrote:

cjcp wrote:

jedster wrote:

so how do we see this for Ventoux and the GC?

Contador and Andy Schleck fixed in 1 and 2 with a four way shoot out for the third podium place?

Or could gaps open up on the final climb of the next stage?

A Schleck has to attack (and AC has to be abducted by aliens) if he wants to win. Nothing to lose. Frank to help. And everyone else to go with them, inc LA. LA just has to cover to stay on the podium.

Wiggins has to attack if he wants a podium place. If I were Wiggo, I'd try to put LA in front of me to save energy because LA wants the podium and will want to make sure he covers attacks by Schleck.

I think A Schleck will settle for second. He has too much to lose by attacking and then blowing up.

I see the fight being for third place: LA, AK, BW, and Frank. That pretty much is a first to the top wins the prize.

On form so far, I'd put them in the following order on the climb: Frank, Kloden, Lance, Bradley. Frank has to take 35s out of LA to podium. With Andy's help, and LA isolated, that's doable. With Kloden and AC around, it looks a lot less doable to me.

Kloden v Armstrong in a straight fight over the last 1000m? Probably give it to Kloden, and he'd probably take 14s out of LA over that distance.

Have to say, I see LA and Bradders not being on the podium in Paris.

I agree Andy will probably concentrate on helping Frank get on the podium, and Bertie will probably be happy to help . It will be interesting to see Lance "free" to ride his own race and fight to keep 3rd place, at least Wiggo can just sit in and follow and hope Lance cracks before he does. I think Kloeden will probably be supporting Lance? Not certain though. My gut feeling is that Frank will get 3rd, lance 4th, Wiggo probably drop to 6th as he has faded at the end of the last 2 stages which he won't be able to afford on the Ventoux. Should be a cracking finale though.

Eau Rouge

cjcp wrote:

So, what was LA's question again?

Was it....
"Why don't we ignore the doping, demonise the labs and anyone who dares to blow the whistle, and pretend cycling is a lovely clean sport?"

Contador has been a handly TT'er for a few seasons now. Based on only his results, he was always going to be close to winning todays stage, baring accidents, It hasn't come out of nowhere. If he is on something, he's been getting away with it for a while now.
On the other hand, I don't think anyone would be at all surprised to find that a Bruyneel team was actually masters at not having their riders getting caught by the testers, and it's not liek there hasn't been a cloud of suspicion over Bertie for an even longer while.
I really don't know what to believe about him.

I will say this, he was clearly the favourite going into this, should have been the undoubted team leader all through it, was, in my opinion, badly let down by a team that seemed more interested in having someone else win, so just ignored them and won anyway. That I kinda like.

We'll see what happens in the next two days, but I'd written Andy Schleck off before the Tour and he's gone and done brilliantly in it. Wlell done him, lets just hope he doesn't have to get used to finishing behind Contador for the next 5 years!

DonDaddyD

Eau Rouge wrote:

I will say this, he was clearly the favourite going into this, should have been the undoubted team leader all through it, was, in my opinion, badly let down by a team that seemed more interested in having someone else win, so just ignored them and won anyway. That I kinda like.

+1!

shoulder_of_orion

The only reason they "caught" Rassmussen was because of a freak coincidence. "Undetectable" drugs definitely do exist.

Having said that, Lance did have a similar dominance in his pomp just as Big Mig and The Cannibal before Contador.

What's the difference between Lance and his 7 tours and Alberto and his 2? Who's to say we aren't looking at the greatest cyclist ever?

Until there is firm evidence you have to give Contador huge credit with the way he has blown everyone away just as you had to do the same with Lance.

Even if it is through gritted teeth.

Eau Rouge

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

What's the difference between Lance and his 7 tours and Alberto and his 2? Who's to say we aren't looking at the greatest cyclist ever?

Bertie has a Giro and a Vuelta. Lance doesn't.
Contador should ride the Ardenne Classics. The other riders wouldn't have an answer, but he's one of these "ride the Tour and little else" guys. Thats just a bit hollow, and detracts from his being the greatest.

Shoulder of Lamb wrote:

Until there is firm evidence you have to give Contador huge credit with the way he has blown everyone away just as you had to do the same with Lance.

Even if it is through gritted teeth.

You don't. Without firm evidence you accept he won, but how much credit you give either of them for those wins is up to you.
If I could believe Contador was clean I would be in awe, but at the same time I'm not convinced he isn't clean either.

Stone Glider

Have other people noticed that "sur le continent" there is a wide assumption that Mr Wiggins is doping? All the stuff that has been trotted out here in recent posts about others is repeated in spades abroad about him.

We know how good he is and what he has been doing with his career but the europeans don't.

Sadly every conversation about bike racing ends up talking about drugs & cheats.

Anyhoo, it is a brilliant Tour Mr Wiggins deserves our total admiration for an outstanding performance to date. The mere fact that we are talking about podium placing is beyond our wildest expectations when this Tour began. GO TWIGGO!

cjcp

Yeah, I'd heard about this. B0llocks to them. Wiggo is a God.

(Even a Brit is finishing higher than the French these days. )