TSS - can this be right?
Bronzie
Posts: 4,927
I’ve had a power meter (Powertap Pro+ used with my own Garmin 705) on hire for just over a week and I’m just trying to get to grips with it.
I seem to be getting some very high numbers for Training Stress Scores from the week of riding I’ve completed with it so far.
Allen & Coggan’s book indicates the following typical TSSs:
1hr Level 1 recovery ride = 12
2h30 Level 2 endurance on rolling terrain = 60
2h50 Cat 4 road race, rolling terrain = 185
And also the following guide for recovery:
0-150 = low – recovery complete by next day
150-300 = medium – some residual fatigue next day but recovery complete by 2nd day
300-450 = high residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days
450+ = very high – residual fatigue likely for several days
I did a 25 mile flat-out ride on Wednesday using a pretty much dead-flat test route that I’ve used over the years. It took me 1h13m with an average power of 250W (from the Garmin) and normalised power of 253W (from WKO+ for the CP60min figure). This was some 4 mins slower than I did in March which I put down to probably being a bit fatigued still from a hard road race the previous Sunday, and it being pretty windy on the night. I’m guessing therefore that my true FTP is around 270W but I obviously need to redo the test when I’m fully rested and with stiller conditions.
The rides I have completed and analysed with WKO+ (using 250W as my FTP) so far are:
Mon – 1h54m endurance ride – 204W AP – IF 0.894 - TSS 153
Tue – 0h40m recovery ride on rollers – 191W AP – IF 0.773 - TSS 39
Wed – 1h13m threshold (excl warmup/down) – 250W AP – IF 1.022 – TSS 127
Thu – 1h18m recovery ride – 171W AP – IF 0.752 – TSS 75
Sat – 3h30m easy club run – 176W AP – IF 0.856 – TSS 321
Sun – 3h02m endurance/tempo ride – 210W AP – IF 0.946 – TSS 304
So even if I have my FTP under-estimated by 20W or so, these TSS figures seem very high to me. Could there be an underlying issue with the data recording with the Garmin or is there something else I need to consider when looking at these TSS values?
I seem to be getting some very high numbers for Training Stress Scores from the week of riding I’ve completed with it so far.
Allen & Coggan’s book indicates the following typical TSSs:
1hr Level 1 recovery ride = 12
2h30 Level 2 endurance on rolling terrain = 60
2h50 Cat 4 road race, rolling terrain = 185
And also the following guide for recovery:
0-150 = low – recovery complete by next day
150-300 = medium – some residual fatigue next day but recovery complete by 2nd day
300-450 = high residual fatigue may be present even after 2 days
450+ = very high – residual fatigue likely for several days
I did a 25 mile flat-out ride on Wednesday using a pretty much dead-flat test route that I’ve used over the years. It took me 1h13m with an average power of 250W (from the Garmin) and normalised power of 253W (from WKO+ for the CP60min figure). This was some 4 mins slower than I did in March which I put down to probably being a bit fatigued still from a hard road race the previous Sunday, and it being pretty windy on the night. I’m guessing therefore that my true FTP is around 270W but I obviously need to redo the test when I’m fully rested and with stiller conditions.
The rides I have completed and analysed with WKO+ (using 250W as my FTP) so far are:
Mon – 1h54m endurance ride – 204W AP – IF 0.894 - TSS 153
Tue – 0h40m recovery ride on rollers – 191W AP – IF 0.773 - TSS 39
Wed – 1h13m threshold (excl warmup/down) – 250W AP – IF 1.022 – TSS 127
Thu – 1h18m recovery ride – 171W AP – IF 0.752 – TSS 75
Sat – 3h30m easy club run – 176W AP – IF 0.856 – TSS 321
Sun – 3h02m endurance/tempo ride – 210W AP – IF 0.946 – TSS 304
So even if I have my FTP under-estimated by 20W or so, these TSS figures seem very high to me. Could there be an underlying issue with the data recording with the Garmin or is there something else I need to consider when looking at these TSS values?
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As I understand it from reading "The Seven Deadly Sins" post, there are many options for testing but the most preferable in decreasing order of preference are:
- 1 hr well-paced* TT (the Gold Standard)
- the 20 min TT test protocol in Allen & Coggan's book
- Normalised Power from a 1 hr crit
Is this correct?
* - presumably this is the tricky bit
I don't think I was 10% better in two weeks, I just think I wasn't trying as hard as I could previously.
I understand FTP to be the most you can possibly do in an hour.
If I want to get high TSS scores 20 miles of intervals does that better than anything else I've found...
Consequently I do mine from a peak 20 mins of a long climb and subtract the 5%. I always check peak 20 mins of hard rides to see if it has gone up...
I know that I'm doing my test properly if I stop looking at the power number on my garmin and keep glancing down at elapsed time. Usually, I'll start clock watching at about 10 minutes and then every couple of minutes thereafter until cool down time. I swear that time moves more slowly the harder you pedal. I think that is consistent with general relativity too :?
The hour test is great training too, for obvious reasons!
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
I knew I was on to a stinker early on though when my virtual me went past real me after about 7 miles even though I had a stronger tailwind until then compared to the last ride. He even had the cheek to bid me a virtual cheery "Good evening" as he went past. :x
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -sins.html
#2 on your list isn't one of the sins.
Does that mean that with an HOP workout, you should be fully recovered the next day? The one HOP I've done so far had a TSS of 109.
I can happily do 100TSS workouts day after day, but my CTL hovering around 90-100. When I had a CTL of 50 I needed a lot more recovery days.
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
Must try harder! (or at least, ride more...)
:oops:
So a CTL (42 day rolling average of TSS) of around 100TSS/day would mean you'd be putting in "work weeks" of c.900TSS with an easy week every 4th week around 200TSS?
I will add however, that improvements in my FTP have plataeud almost exactly at the same time that my CTL plateaud. I struggle to get my CTL any higher now as I've run out of time I can train and my average IF is already .87 so can't push either intensity, frequency or volume. Then again, maybe I should do less. Christ, I don't know.
Edit - yes 100 TSS is an hour at threshold.
Obsessed is just a word elephants use to describe the dedicated. http://markliversedge.blogspot.com
PB's
10m 20:21 2014
25m 53:18 20:13
50m 1:57:12 2013
100m Yeah right.
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2006/10/ ... chart.html
PB's
10m 20:21 2014
25m 53:18 20:13
50m 1:57:12 2013
100m Yeah right.
261W but it was in the last 20 mins of a 73min ride (pushing into a strong headwind and getting angry that my time was so pants) so by definition I shouldn't have been able to achieve this if my FTP really was 250W (I still think it's more likely around 270W).
Having had chance to play with the WKO software a bit more, I've found part of the reason as to why the Sat / Sun rides scored so highly on TSS is that when I stopped at the cafe (both rides), although the Garmin auto-paused, when it's analysed in WKO it uses the time of day from the beginning of the ride file being started as the baseline. I therefore have a period of around 1 hour on the Saturday ride where I was stationary, but the data has done some sort of weird interpolation so that I'm actually scoring TSS while I'm drinking coffee 8) .
So presumably to stop this happening, anytime I'm stationary for a significant period, I need to stop the Garmin and reset it (holding the Lap button for 3 secs) to start a new file and then upload both to WKO and add the TSS's together?
Is their a setting in WKO that I need to alter to prevent this error?
Can I retrospectively alter the data files to correct this error by removing the dead time?
Secondly, I had the Garmin on the factory setting of:
Settings > Data Recording > Record Data Points = Smart Recording (records data each time it alters)
when it would presumably be better to set this to record "Every Second" (although obviously the storage capacity of the unit will be reduced this way). [As advised in "Training and Racing with a Powermeter].
The corrected TSS's are now:
Sat (FTP 250W) = 250
Sun (FTP 250W) = 247
And at my "true" FTP (subject to actually pinning it down a bit more):
Sat (FTP 270W) = 214
Sun (FTP 270W) = 224
The ride home is appended to the morning ride's file as "Lap 2", but when analysed in WKO I've got 8 hrs with the unit switched off that have accumulated TSS points as the software has linked the two "laps" together (even though there was an 8 hour period with zero readings). I've ended up with a 10 hr ride with c.1000 TSS when all I did was pootle into work and back!
There seems to be persistent problems with the Garmin management of power meter info.
In any case, you can cut and paste any section of a ride file into a new file. and of course cut out any section of ride file you like. just select and cut.
I suppose this kind of relates to the "building a base" vs "doing high intensity" debate.
But there is a practical limit and experience has shown that attempting to ramp CTL by more than 8 TSS/day per week is not sustainable in the medium term. What an individual can ramp at is very dependent on many factors. Many find much less than that to be a useful limit.
How any individual workout fits into that is only part of the picture. CTL doesn't tell you composition. So if you have a CTL of 30, but do a HOP once a week, are an experienced trainer but have limited time then you'll probably be able to do it. If you're a newbie, then probably not a good idea and it would be worth working your way up there.
Either way, I think doing a HOP is probably better left until you have worked your way up to efforts of that duration and intensity. When I did my first HOP this past season I was at a CTL of ~60 TSS/day.
End of day, if you have a CTL of 30 and are hoping to be in good shape, well you'll need to train more.
Missed that one - that's what I get for tacking on to someone else's thread
That's a good idea - hadn't thought of that. I'll have a play around with as I got a bad cold a few weeks ago and it will be interesting to see if I can find clues in there for it (then again it could be sardine tin I share with 6 other people at work). My guess is too aggressive a ramp rate. Perhaps I have found my breaking point (fitness wise for once and not bad setup) which if I have should prove very valuable info.
In fact it was scary the first time I looked at my data at how well it showed my previous season.
I tagged it the "Retrospect-a-scope" when Dr Coggan was beta testing it all.
I see even Joe Friel is impressed with how good it is based on his recent blog entry:
http://www.trainingbible.com/joesblog/2 ... ining.html
WKO+ does some irritating interpolation because it doesn't appear to recognise the markers when the Garmin auto-stops (if you have it set to stop the timer below a certain speed). Just select and Ctrl-X (cut) the offending data in WKO+. It's a bit annoying in town though not a problem on a proper ride where stops are infrequent. It's easy to spot this in WKO+ as long as you are viewing with time as the X-axis and not distance.
You definitely want 1-second recording and you can now (with the 2.70 firmware) choose to display Average Power instead of NZAP (non-zero average power) on the 705.
Your FTP would be 95% of the 261W rather than 261W but as you say 20 minutes at the end of a ride is not a good way to test it. Follow Coggan's protocol or do an exceptionally hard race and check the 20 minute max average in WKO+. Given the numbers you've mentioned, 250W is definitely too low anyway...
It took me a few months to get into the whole power thing but once you're happy start the workouts in the back of the Coggan book and you will really get the most out of it.