Cunego's ongoing comments

13

Comments

  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    monkey71 wrote:
    Please tell me, other than being on a team that has links to organised doping within a certain faction within the team, not all the team, what evidence do you have that rogers doped!!!!!
    OK. Rogers was paying Dr Michele Ferrari, the godfather of doping, to act as his coach.

    No doubt someone will be along to say it's possible that Ferrari was just advising on cadence technique and diet but T-Mobile management didn't think so, in 2006 they told Rogers to dump Ferrari mid-season.
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Moray Gub wrote:
    Timoid. wrote:
    Menchov is known to spend a lot of time in Vienna

    Wiggins is clean without a doubt in my mind.


    On these two statements what have you got on Denis Menchov other than tittle tattle ?
    On Wiggins you have condemned Sastre and Leipheimer on team assocaition and nothing more you should be doing the same with Wiggins or is the team associaton thing only apply to ceratin riders and certain nationalities ?


    Umm why would I defend a Belgian when I'm Irish? What dodgy team (other than the British track cycling team :twisted:) has he ever been on.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Timoid - Wiggins rode for Cofidis. Definitely think he is as clean as a whistle whatever team he rode and chooses to ride for, yet 'your dodgy by team association' that MG is referring to is applicable to Wiggins.

    I care not for anecdotal or circumtantial evidence. I don't like to speculate (which is what 90% of most of the comments on doping seem to be). Caught with a +ve then fine, have at them.

    Doping is seen as more of a problem in cycling than in other sports. A good perspective to view this statement is that the officials of the sport are taking much more action than the officials in other sports to stamp it out. As an example, a couple of 100 tests were done in 2006. This year they plan on 10,000.

    For those who don't like Columbia and seem to think they are a 'dirty' team. Note that:
    - Out of the squad of 25 riders, 14 are aged 26 and under.
    - 18 nationalities are represented (which reduces homogenity and thus likelihood of doping and means the team has many riders from countrys not normally associated with doping)
    - The team is not built around one or two stars. 19 riders in 2008 won a race. Before the Giro, they had won 20 races with 10 different rides.
    - They are innovative (largely down to Stapleton's industry background where innovation was critical).

    Moray Gub - it's not just you : )
    Contador is the Greatest
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    It's important to distinguish between the Cofidis of the dark age and the clean outfit run by Eric Boyer that Wiggins rode for. It was a madhouse in Millar and Gaumont's days, now rider health is the focus and they are recruiting a second full time coach for the team; Saxo Bank, Quick-Step and Astana don't even have one full time coach on their books.

    I don't think a rider is automatically dodgy by association. But some of this debate comes from an earlier thread when I suggested the likes of Contador, LL Sanchez and Allan Davis were probably under Saiz's control at Liberty Seguros. In the case of this team it's hard to imagine any rider doing it clean. At the other end of the scale, look at Saunier Duval, Millar rode for them on his comeback, it doesn't mean the staff were forcing him to dope. He was given a free rein.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    frenchfighter wrote:
    For those who don't like Columbia and seem to think they are a 'dirty' team. Note that:
    - Out of the squad of 25 riders, 14 are aged 26 and under.
    - 18 nationalities are represented (which reduces homogenity and thus likelihood of doping and means the team has many riders from countrys not normally associated with doping)

    Because young people don't dope. Aside from Kohl. And Ricco. And Sinkewitz. and THe Mekon.

    Which countries are not "normally associated with doping"?

    I dislike Columbia strongly, but I don't believe they're a dirty team. But there are question marks around some of their riders AND the management has interesting attitudes towards doping.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    But Iain, is that not more of a PR issue than a substantive one? If the likes of Zabel and Hincapie were saucing up in the 1990s, I can credit them with the intelligence to have stopped today. Maybe Stapleton should have cleaned out the stables when he came in but he's done a lot of that now, cutting ties to Freiburg etc.
  • GroupOfOne MkII
    GroupOfOne MkII Posts: 1,289
    frenchfighter wrote:
    For those who don't like Columbia and seem to think they are a 'dirty' team. Note that:
    - Out of the squad of 25 riders, 14 are aged 26 and under.

    I'm not saying one way or the other that Columbia are "dirty", as that's a far too simplistic categorisation for any team.

    But, to say because alot of the riders are young is a way of proving or stating that they're not is rather naive. It's like this talk of a new generation being oh so much cleaner than the 'old generation' that we get from time-to-time. Richeze, Ricco, Gusev, Kohl, and Sinkewitz would all have been considered young and part of this new generation, but they didn't prove any more trustworthy than Piepoli, Rebellin and Beltran of the 'old generation'.

    Edit - Damn, Iain beat me to it, should've known :wink:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Kléber wrote:
    But Iain, is that not more of a PR issue than a substantive one? If the likes of Zabel and Hincapie were saucing up in the 1990s, I can credit them with the intelligence to have stopped today. Maybe Stapleton should have cleaned out the stables when he came in but he's done a lot of that now, cutting ties to Freiburg etc.

    Not really, but the PR aspect is an important one. High Horse are all about the PR - Look at how much air time they get in magazines etc. And a lot of it's based on their new way.

    Let's assume you've been juicing since the 90's. You go to Columbia. Why would you stop?

    I don't like the fact that the actions and the words are sometimes at odds with each other.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    Maybe you stop because you can clear a big salary without risking your health and reputation, all you have to do is maintain the illusion that you're a classics contender and actually just revert to the role of an experienced domestique for Cav...
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Kléber wrote:
    Maybe you stop because you can clear a big salary without risking your health and reputation, all you have to do is maintain the illusion that you're a classics contender and actually just revert to the role of an experienced domestique for Cav...

    :lol:
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Kleber, your knowledge on cycling is interesting and useful.

    I don't think Cofidis is 'dirty' I simply mentionned it as it was relevant to the point in hand.

    I think it is fair comment to say that as a proportion, there are less people doping who are under 26 or so than those who are over. I cannot back that up with facts, simply to say that most people would hold that opinion. Furthermore, my point was two fold - doping but also the fact I respect them for nuturing young talent in much the same way that Arsenal does, as opposed to Chelsea.

    Knocking off four names of young dopers may convince some people, but not me. That would be a classical mistake:
    Let A be: young people dope
    Let B be: four young people doped
    Then P(A given B) = [P(B given A) x P(A)] / P(B) (Bayes)
    The mistake is to ignore P(A).

    As for countries, am I led to believe that doping is equally prevelant in Scandanavian countries as in Germany or Italy?!
    Contador is the Greatest
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Moray Gub wrote:
    afx237vi wrote:
    [. Please don't tell me what sports I should and should not watch. At least the fans of cycling are willing to admit it has a problem. Some of them, anyway.

    The thing is you see bad in almost every rider over 25 who does a half decent ride sometimes on no more than team association alone , i dont see how you can enjoy cycling with that kind of thought process...............or maybe its just me.

    I haven't been a cycling fan that long. Since 2002/03 maybe. Certainly not as long as some other members of the forum.

    In that time I've been impressed by, and subsequently disappointed by the following riders: Ullrich, Hamilton, Landis, Millar, Mayo, Vinokourov, Kashechkin, Basso, Valverde, Ricco, Kohl, Heras, Sella, plus twice as many that I've forgotton.

    Despite that, I still watch cycling and enjoy it. It's either that or Diagnosis Murder. However, given the list of riders I've given above, I have no idea how anyone can watch a rider like Di Luca, look at his history, and still give him the benefit of the doubt.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    frenchfighter wrote:
    Knocking off four names of young dopers may convince some people, but not me. That would be a classical mistake:

    It would indeed. How many positives in the Tour last year? And how many of them were "young"?
    frenchfighter wrote:
    As for countries, am I led to believe that doping is equally prevelant in Scandanavian countries as in Germany or Italy?!

    Well, I can think of Riis, Rasmussen and Skibby off the top of my head for Danes. Why would people from one country be less likely than another country? You've got the US which produced Greg Lemond. It also produced Tyler Hamilton and Floyd Landis.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    edited May 2009
    iainf72 wrote:
    Why would people from one country be less likely than another country?

    Possible that a group of doctors in a particular country builds up a critical mass of expertise in cutting edge doping technqiues. More likely than any cultural reasons. Seems to be widely accepted that the Italians (See Conconi, Cecchini, Ferrari, Santuccione et al) led the way in the early 90s.
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • timoid.
    timoid. Posts: 3,133
    Kléber wrote:
    It's important to distinguish between the Cofidis of the dark age and the clean outfit run by Eric Boyer that Wiggins rode for.

    Correct
    frenchfighter wrote:
    As for countries, am I led to believe that doping is equally prevelant in Scandanavian countries as in Germany or Italy?!

    Aren't you contradicting yourself here? First you give out about me favouring an evil Sasanach type and now telling me that nordics don't dope?

    I'm with the Armstrong-blacklisted chimp on this one. I absolutely love the sport, but can never quite leave my disbelief at the door.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Timoid I'm not quite sure what you are referring to so cannot reply to your comment...

    Just to clear matters up, it is simply that I prefer to watch the sport and enjoy it and not have to have that enjoyment spoilt by what ifs. Retrospectively too, I know, for instance, Pantani doped but I still find it very exciting to watch him climbing. My enjoyment of the sport is not diminished. Neither am I nieve, or trying to avoid the issue, quite simply I don't like speculation or associations, I simply go by +ves and in the meantime, I revel in supporting and participating in what is the best sport in the world.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • GeorgeShaw
    GeorgeShaw Posts: 764
    frenchfighter wrote:
    As for countries, am I led to believe that doping is equally prevelant in Scandanavian countries as in Germany or Italy?!

    I think if you look at other sports like cross-country skiiing, then Scandiwegians certainly dope.
  • monkey71
    monkey71 Posts: 24
    Kléber wrote:
    But Iain, is that not more of a PR issue than a substantive one? If the likes of Zabel and Hincapie were saucing up in the 1990s, I can credit them with the intelligence to have stopped today. Maybe Stapleton should have cleaned out the stables when he came in but he's done a lot of that now, cutting ties to Freiburg etc.

    Couldn't the same be said of Rogers and Ferrari KLEBER. (The PR issue.)

    Other than the fact that he was coached for a short time by Ferrari, where is the evidence of doping? His performances did not really change at all for the short time he was under Ferrari. Maybe, just maybe, and as ridiculous as this might sound for some of the pessimists, he did receive training advice only, and maybe, just maybe, he was told by T-mobile to stop his association with Ferrari not because he was doping, but because they didn't want anymore negative publicity.

    Doesn't Ferrari have an online coaching business? I guess this means that all of the people who utilise his online services dope to!!!!!

    So, I say again, if you have any evidence,put it out there for us to see, not speculation. If his short association with Ferrari is your proof he doped, please don't start working in the legal profession because I envisage your tenue in that profession would be short and inglorious.....
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    I don't think anyone is saying people subscribing to Ferrari's 53x12.com website are doping.

    But a pro cyclist employing him as a preparatore is perhaps another matter.

    A pro cyclist working with Dr Ferrari: yes it's association and it's up to the reader to make up their own minds. If you want to believe Mick was buying some online training plans - like Frank Schleck claims with Fuentes - then so be it, that's fine. But given Roger's fellow team mates and Ferrari clients Mazzoleni and Sinkiewitz are known dopers, it takes a big leap of faith.

    Jump if you want but I'm keeping my feet on the ground...
  • samb01
    samb01 Posts: 130
    GeorgeShaw wrote:
    I think if you look at other sports like cross-country skiiing, then Scandiwegians certainly dope.
    How many Swedish or Norwegian skiers have been caught doping the past few decades?
  • frenchfighter
    frenchfighter Posts: 30,642
    Note that when I said Scandanvia as an example, I should have been more specific as under no circumstances would I include Denmark. They are quite possibly worse than the Italians.

    By the way, a simple google search will bring you a complete list of every doping cyclist from 1880s to now. It is quite interesting reading actually.
    Contador is the Greatest
  • monkey71
    monkey71 Posts: 24
    Kléber wrote:
    I don't think anyone is saying people subscribing to Ferrari's 53x12.com website are doping.

    But a pro cyclist employing him as a preparatore is perhaps another matter.

    A pro cyclist working with Dr Ferrari: yes it's association and it's up to the reader to make up their own minds. If you want to believe Mick was buying some online training plans - like Frank Schleck claims with Fuentes - then so be it, that's fine. But given Roger's fellow team mates and Ferrari clients Mazzoleni and Sinkiewitz are known dopers, it takes a big leap of faith.

    Jump if you want but I'm keeping my feet on the ground...

    Actually, it appears as if you are jumping.... to conclusions. As I said, if we look at association by teammates, there wont be much of a peloton left that hasn't doped.

    I'm keeping my feet to the ground, if evidence comes up other than association, then I will be the first to stick my hand up and say I was wrong, but if you believe character assassination by association is keeping your feet on the ground, god help us.

    The guy was an under 19 world tt medallist, world u19 pursuit champion, commonwealth games champion, 2 x world under 23 tt medallist during the infancy of his career, this might allude to a fairly strong pedigree and I would contend that his pedigree has remained fairly constant throughout his career, no remarkable peaks that are suspicious. Again, my request to you was to provide some sort of evidence other than association and all you could come up with was association again, c'mon KLEBER, something concrete on this one mate, or am i "jumping" to a conclusion that you don't have anything more than that.
  • Kléber
    Kléber Posts: 6,842
    If there was clear evidence of Rogers, then obviously he would not be riding the Giro, he'd be sat at home in Australia.

    Association itself can vary, there's being on the same team as someone, for example Millar rode for Saunier-Duval but I'd suggest hiring Dr Ferrari is more than association, it's collusion.

    Rather than speculate on forums, I'd like to see Rogers willing to answer more questions about his past but when people ask him about his work with Ferrari it's met with silence and a refusal to discuss the past, not openess. Of course he could just be a shy bloke.

    Anyway, we can agree to disagree, that's fine, I'm not here to force you into believing anything, it's a cycling forum, not the Spanish Inquisition :wink:
  • Eau Rouge
    Eau Rouge Posts: 1,118
    Kléber wrote:
    not the Spanish Inquisition :wink:

    I wasn't expecting that!
  • avoidingmyphd
    avoidingmyphd Posts: 1,154
    a bit more inquisition by the spanish would be nice though
  • monkey71
    monkey71 Posts: 24
    edited May 2009
    Kléber wrote:
    If there was clear evidence of Rogers, then obviously he would not be riding the Giro, he'd be sat at home in Australia.

    Association itself can vary, there's being on the same team as someone, for example Millar rode for Saunier-Duval but I'd suggest hiring Dr Ferrari is more than association, it's collusion.


    Rather than speculate on forums, I'd like to see Rogers willing to answer more questions about his past but when people ask him about his work with Ferrari it's met with silence and a refusal to discuss the past, not openess. Of course he could just be a shy bloke.


    Anyway, we can agree to disagree, that's fine, I'm not here to force you into believing anything, it's a cycling forum, not the Spanish Inquisition :wink:


    Kleber, Isn't speculation the very thing your doing by the contents of your post!!!!!

    Kleber, Collusion: Collusion is an agreement, usually secretive, which occurs between two or more persons to deceive, mislead, or defraud others of their legal rights

    Where is the evidence of this, I think you are speculating that this was what he was doing with ferrari and doping, isn't speculating the very thing you'd like to avoid according to your comments above:wink::wink:



    Thankfully it's not the Spanish Inquisition, I'd hate to see some people hanged on the contents of your speculation :wink::wink:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Kléber wrote:
    If there was clear evidence of Rogers, then obviously he would not be riding the Giro, he'd be sat at home in Australia.

    Speaking of Down Under - Do they actually take anti-doping seriously?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • andyp
    andyp Posts: 10,485
    Wasn't Allan Davis cleared by the Australian Federation on any involvement in Puerto because of his testimony, i.e. he said he wasn't and they believed him?
  • don key
    don key Posts: 494
    Kléber wrote:
    Exactly skavanagh, it's hard to tell. Is he just off form a bit or is he being done over by the cheats? He's normally an exciting rider to watch, his performance in the Tour of Lombardy last autumn is a good example.


    I don't want to blow my own crumpet but I believe I have all the necessaries to beat him in the hoor of Bumlardy.

    As for Cunego, fair play to him and lets see if Mince Charmsgone will chase him down for a wee chat or if dense will prevail and.........................tobcont.
  • afx237vi
    afx237vi Posts: 12,630
    Story of the day goes to Lance, who at one point was having it out with Cunego as they were fighting for position mid-way through the race. Cunego goes by the nickname in Italy, 'The Prince'. All the Italians seem to have dorkie nicknames, such as the 'Dolphin' or 'Cricket'. Anyway, after squabbling back and forth to each other, in all his anger and frustration, Lance turned to Cunego and said, "I'll crush you, little Prince!". I had to laugh my arse off as it just sounded like something that had come straight out of a fairytale book.

    From Julian "the Kiwi" Dean's website.

    http://www.juliandean.co.nz/diary.php

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