Giro Stage 5 ''Spoiler''

Quite Frankly

Latest odds for the overall win:

Levi Leipheimer 7/4
Ivan Basso 7/4
Denis Menchov 7/2
Danilo Di Luca 7/1
Carlos Sastre 10/1
Thomas Lovkvist 14/1
Michael Rogers 16/1
Franco Pellizotti 25/1
Lance Armstrong 40/1
Damiano Cunego 50/1
Gilberto Simoni 50/1
Marzio Bruseghin 50/1
Chris Horner 66/1
David Arroyo 66/1
Juan Mauricio Soler Hernandez 80/1
Michele Scarponi 100/1
Joaquim Rodriguez 100/1
Yaroslav Popovych 100/1

dave_1

Moray Gub wrote:

jimycooper wrote:

can someone please assure me that wiggins isnt on drugs. he is probably the rider i respect the most, and it would have serious consequences on my morals if he was.

Well earlier in the season the doping allegations were being flung in Alberto Contadors directionbecause he blew away Wiggo in a prologue TT despite being a renowned tester and now we have Wiggo who normally climbs like an aerodynamic brick dropping a little climber like Cunego so i suppose the same folks should be asking the same question............over to you DaveyL ?..........

Indeed Moray gub...I myself was one of the trigger happy...was shocked at contador...but got it wrong as you say....

did anyone see the average speed yesterday? Like something out the the 83 TDF... am tempted to say the blood passport has scared a few ...Wiggin's appearances in the lead group also lead me to think we're seeing something semi normal...

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

jimycooper wrote:

can someone please assure me that wiggins isnt on drugs. he is probably the rider i respect the most, and it would have serious consequences on my morals if he was.

Well earlier in the season the doping allegations were being flung in Alberto Contadors directionbecause he blew away Wiggo in a prologue TT despite being a renowned tester and now we have Wiggo who normally climbs like an aerodynamic brick dropping a little climber like Cunego so i suppose the same folks should be asking the same question............over to you DaveyL ?..........

You know how they say you should never wrestle with a pig?...

or you'll get Swine Flu ?

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

jimycooper wrote:

can someone please assure me that wiggins isnt on drugs. he is probably the rider i respect the most, and it would have serious consequences on my morals if he was.

Well earlier in the season the doping allegations were being flung in Alberto Contadors directionbecause he blew away Wiggo in a prologue TT despite being a renowned tester and now we have Wiggo who normally climbs like an aerodynamic brick dropping a little climber like Cunego so i suppose the same folks should be asking the same question............over to you DaveyL ?..........

You know how they say you should never wrestle with a pig?...

So the criteria for doping allegations is now changed becuase it Wiggo instead of Bertie ...........well i never.

DaveyL

Sorry MG. I wish I could provide more sport for you, but you've defeated me with your deep-rooted-in-exercise-physiology "Contador's done this kind of performance before so it must be credible" explanation.

Putting Cunego in the same climbing bracket as Bertie? Good one. What evidence has there been in the last 5 years that Cunego is a specialist climber any more?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Bra ... 82519.html

Thing is, if you were a journo and were suspicious of Brad's ride - you could go to Vaughters, along with an expert, and ask to see all his blood values. They'd show you. Hell, they might even give you his power meter data from the P-N prologue and yesterday's stage. What would a similar request to Bruyneel end in?

jimycooper

wiggins is 5 kilos ligher than he was in last years giro, and he says he's been working on his climbing, http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Bradley_Wiggins_eyes_top_20_finish_in_Giro_dItalia_article_282519.html

all i needed to hear.

Kléber

So he's a TT specialist who can now climb. Should be a dark horse for the upcoming Giro TT.

DaveyL

He says he fancies it. Difficult to predict what is going to happen in that TT though. Obviously if Bertie was riding it, he'd be a stick-on, what with him being an ace TTer and an ace climber.

It looks like Wiggins is trying to become a bit of a climbing domestique for VDV in the Tour, from that CW article. As he says, this is probably the first time he's been able to forget about the track and concentrate on the road. Perhaps iain will start to warm to him... Maybe over the winter he's sat down and asked himself what he wants to do as a roadie - just be a prologue/TT speciliast, or see what else he can turn his hand to.

iainf72

Now as we all know, I don't like Bradleeeeeeeeeee much but with reduced weight and the way the climb happened yesterday someone with his engine should've been able to live with the pace if he wanted to. To me, it looked like he was working hard but keeping it consistant. When the pace got a bit jumpy he lost ground.

micron

Liquigas had a sort out on one MTF - why the assumption they'll be doing this day in and day out, or even on every MTF? Do they have a jersey to defend or something? Surely they were simply seeing who could hang and who couldn't - now they can lay low for a few stages and rely on LPR to do the work - if Di Luca wants to win he has more cause to get rid of Leipheimer than Basso does.

SpaceJunk

Moray Gub wrote:

Kléber wrote:

SpaceJunk wrote:

Good to see that LA has three working for him, whilst Levi only gets two.

It is silly, isn't it. They might as well carry him in a Sedan chair:


Note the team colours.

You obviously think then that the three with Lance were capable of being at front with Levi , imo that would be very unlikely.

Initially however, when LA was still in the front group - albeit, towards the tail end - he had that support. That said, Levi looked pretty comfortable (He's my tip now for Giro), and didn't really need the support anyway.

Will be interesting to see how much support Levi does get for remainder of Giro. Not because of LA, but Astana haven't always been able to give total support to their team leader this year (i.e Paris-Nice , ToC).

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry MG. I wish I could provide more sport for you, but you've defeated me with your deep-rooted-in-exercise-physiology "Contador's done this kind of performance before so it must be credible" explanation.

Putting Cunego in the same climbing bracket as Bertie? Good one. What evidence has there been in the last 5 years that Cunego is a specialist climber any more?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Bra ... 82519.html

Thing is, if you were a journo and were suspicious of Brad's ride - you could go to Vaughters, along with an expert, and ask to see all his blood values. They'd show you. Hell, they might even give you his power meter data from the P-N prologue and yesterday's stage. What would a similar request to Bruyneel end in?

I cant see where i put Cunego alongside Bertie at all you will have to point that out for me. Cunego while not top drawer but is still a half decent climber his classic wins tell you that. Wheras Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills its the hypocrisy that get me with you here you are quite happy to more or less accuse Bertie of being on PEDs but the same kind of criteria applies here with wiggo in fact even more so as Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills at all and you shy away from the same accusation probably because Wiggo is British. I am quite happy to say Wiggo is clean but as i say the hypocrisy in this place stinks at times.

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

He says he fancies it. Difficult to predict what is going to happen in that TT though. Obviously if Bertie was riding it, he'd be a stick-on, what with him being an ace TTer and an ace climber.

It looks like Wiggins is trying to become a bit of a climbing domestique for VDV in the Tour, from that CW article. As he says, this is probably the first time he's been able to forget about the track and concentrate on the road. Perhaps iain will start to warm to him... Maybe over the winter he's sat down and asked himself what he wants to do as a roadie - just be a prologue/TT speciliast, or see what else he can turn his hand to.

Funny how certain riders get away with that sort of guff and some dont eh !

frenchfighter

I guess that Wiggins has for once concentrated on climbing so it was simply potential waiting to be unlocked and focused on and quite possibly some true belief - he has done most things so why not try something new. Either way I am very very happy for him. Don't forget Charlie either - he finshed same time as Wiggins. Cadel is going to have much better support with him then he ever had with Poppo.

frenchfighter

Wiggins hasn't recced the TT yet?! I am sure Basso has ridden it on three seperate occasions!

DaveyL

Moray Gub wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry MG. I wish I could provide more sport for you, but you've defeated me with your deep-rooted-in-exercise-physiology "Contador's done this kind of performance before so it must be credible" explanation.

Putting Cunego in the same climbing bracket as Bertie? Good one. What evidence has there been in the last 5 years that Cunego is a specialist climber any more?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Bra ... 82519.html

Thing is, if you were a journo and were suspicious of Brad's ride - you could go to Vaughters, along with an expert, and ask to see all his blood values. They'd show you. Hell, they might even give you his power meter data from the P-N prologue and yesterday's stage. What would a similar request to Bruyneel end in?

I cant see where i put Cunego alongside Bertie at all you will have to point that out for me. Cunego while not top drawer but is still a half decent climber his classic wins tell you that. Wheras Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills its the hypocrisy that get me with you here you are quite happy to more or less accuse Bertie of being on PEDs but the same kind of criteria applies here with wiggo in fact even more so as Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills at all and you shy away from the same accusation probably because Wiggo is British. I am quite happy to say Wiggo is clean but as i say the hypocrisy in this place stinks at times.

Probably because he's British? Well, if you say so, MG. You know it all, dontcha? You've decided we reek of hypocrisy so you're damn well gonna prove it.

Actually I gave my reasons and it was more to do with the team he is riding for. But don't let me stop you.

I'll repeat once again, if a 62 kg climber like Contador can toast the whole field (and not just Brad) in a pan flat 9 km TT, can we look forward to Simoni et al doing the same at some point? .Why aren't these little climbers ripping up the field in flat TTs on a regular basis? Why is Cancellara world TT champion and a prologue specialist? I was not the only one to express surprise at Contador's performance in the P-N prologue, many much more knowledgeable than I did as well. I'm lookng for you to explain, physiologcially, how it is possible for Contador to do that, and all you keep coming up with is "He's done it before so it must be kosher." Well, have you considered that the time he did it before, might have been suspect as well?

If anyone can come up with an extraterrestrial W/kg for Brad's climb yesterday I will be more than happy to raise an eyebrow but til then I will put it down to a loss of 5 kg (6-7% of his body weight?) and focus on climbing for the first time in his road career, coupled with what many have pointed out already, it wasn't exactly the Zoncolan yesterday.

timoid.

Kléber wrote:

It is silly, isn't it. They might as well carry him in a Sedan chair:


Note the team colours.

That's too funny. Chapeau!

andyp

DaveyL wrote:

If anyone can come up with an extraterrestrial W/kg for Brad's climb yesterday I will be more than happy to raise an eyebrow but til then I will put it down to a loss of 5 kg (6-7% of his body weight?) and focus on climbing for the first time in his road career, coupled with what many have pointed out already, it wasn't exactly the Zoncolan yesterday.

Get analysing Davey;

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2009/05 ... ro-stage-5

There doesn't look anything extraterrestial there.

iainf72

andyp wrote:

There doesn't look anything extraterrestial there.

Must check to see if Basso is uploading his data during the race.

DaveyL

Now what train of thought were you following there....?

LangerDan

andyp wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

If anyone can come up with an extraterrestrial W/kg for Brad's climb yesterday I will be more than happy to raise an eyebrow but til then I will put it down to a loss of 5 kg (6-7% of his body weight?) and focus on climbing for the first time in his road career, coupled with what many have pointed out already, it wasn't exactly the Zoncolan yesterday.

Get analysing Davey;

http://www.slipstreamsports.com/2009/05 ... ro-stage-5

There doesn't look anything extraterrestial there.

VAM of ~1500m/hr for the last climb, with a power to weight of about 5 W/kg, assuming Wiggins is down to about 70kg now.
Mind you, his Garmin data says his top speed was just under 80mph. Either he's become a demon descender, along with finding his climbing legs, or they forgot to turn off the computer when they put the bike on the team car.

moray_gub

DaveyL wrote:

Moray Gub wrote:

DaveyL wrote:

Sorry MG. I wish I could provide more sport for you, but you've defeated me with your deep-rooted-in-exercise-physiology "Contador's done this kind of performance before so it must be credible" explanation.

Putting Cunego in the same climbing bracket as Bertie? Good one. What evidence has there been in the last 5 years that Cunego is a specialist climber any more?

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/Bra ... 82519.html

Thing is, if you were a journo and were suspicious of Brad's ride - you could go to Vaughters, along with an expert, and ask to see all his blood values. They'd show you. Hell, they might even give you his power meter data from the P-N prologue and yesterday's stage. What would a similar request to Bruyneel end in?

I cant see where i put Cunego alongside Bertie at all you will have to point that out for me. Cunego while not top drawer but is still a half decent climber his classic wins tell you that. Wheras Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills its the hypocrisy that get me with you here you are quite happy to more or less accuse Bertie of being on PEDs but the same kind of criteria applies here with wiggo in fact even more so as Wiggo has never been noted for his climbing skills at all and you shy away from the same accusation probably because Wiggo is British. I am quite happy to say Wiggo is clean but as i say the hypocrisy in this place stinks at times.

Probably because he's British? Well, if you say so, MG. You know it all, dontcha? You've decided we reek of hypocrisy so you're damn well gonna prove it.

Actually I gave my reasons and it was more to do with the team he is riding for. But don't let me stop you.

I'll repeat once again, if a 62 kg climber like Contador can toast the whole field (and not just Brad) in a pan flat 9 km TT, can we look forward to Simoni et al doing the same at some point? .Why aren't these little climbers ripping up the field in flat TTs on a regular basis? Why is Cancellara world TT champion and a prologue specialist? I was not the only one to express surprise at Contador's performance in the P-N prologue, many much more knowledgeable than I did as well. I'm lookng for you to explain, physiologcially, how it is possible for Contador to do that, and all you keep coming up with is "He's done it before so it must be kosher." Well, have you considered that the time he did it before, might have been suspect as well?

If anyone can come up with an extraterrestrial W/kg for Brad's climb yesterday I will be more than happy to raise an eyebrow but til then I will put it down to a loss of 5 kg (6-7% of his body weight?) and focus on climbing for the first time in his road career, coupled with what many have pointed out already, it wasn't exactly the Zoncolan yesterday.

You speak as if all cyclists are the same and capable of the same things You have probably never considered this in fact i am sure you havent but maybe just maybe Alberto Contador is a very gifted cyclist capable of doing what he did on talent alone without the help of PEDs, not everything in sport is clear cut you know sometimes people are capable of tanking others in short TTs i know thats a concept that you may have difficulty with but do try........as for Wiggo as i say if other non climbers like him had come out with that you would have been on them immediately, i know it wasnt the Zoncolan but Wiggo has never been a climber nor even threatened to be one.............eyebrows raised indeed !
.

frenchfighter

If you two want to argue then could you PM eachother. I certainly don't want to log onto to a Giro thread and see you guys at it - it is cluttering up the thread. Thanks.

DaveyL

MG I believe throughout all the posts I have made on here I have expressed immediate scepticism at two (count them) results. One as we know was Bertie's prologue win, and the other was Ricco's stage win at the Tour last year. So I am not "on" riders immediately when there is an outstanding performance.

Of course riders are capable of raising their game, but I believe there is a limit to human performance in terms of phyisology, the Watts that can be produced by a rider. Riders producing >470 Watts for prolonged periods of time on long climbs is just not natural and many have argued it is a good basis for suspecting doping (Lemond amongst others). In my admittedly simplistic view, big strong powerful riders are good on the flat because they can produce a large amount of power vs their frontal area. Small guys produce less absolute power but are good on steep climbs because they have a high power/weight ratio. It surprises me when a small rider wins a short, flat TT in front of a number of powerful flat TT specliasts. Can I make this any simpler?

As LangerDan has already pointed out, we can see the data from Wiggins's ride. His absolute power output and power/weight ratio is nothing out of the ordinary for an elite cyclist and the pace up the climb was not extreme - he was able to hang on until the climbers started to light it up with attacks. Do you thnik we will see him hanging in there on the really big mountain stages, when the climbers really go for it?

So, Wiggins's data is up there for all to see. Sadly the same cannot be said about Contador's P-N prologue. Not surprising really, this is from the team who are still to let us see the results of any of Dr Damsgaard's sterling efforts.

rockmount

frenchfighter wrote:

If you two want to argue then could you PM eachother. I certainly don't want to log onto to a Giro thread and see you guys at it - it is cluttering up the thread. Thanks.

andyp

frenchfighter wrote:

If you two want to argue then could you PM eachother. I certainly don't want to log onto to a Giro thread and see you guys at it - it is cluttering up the thread. Thanks.

Self appointed moderator now?

I thought that was my job. :roll:

DaveyL

Could you lot take your arguing elsewhere? I want to read about my argument with MG.