Killer hill that I just can't get all the way up

Starwasp

I live close to Yorks Hill which is a 16% killer near Sevenoaks in Kent. I can live with 16% but not for the length of Yorks Hill which is c300-400m long at 16% (est).

Each time I am out, I have a go to see how far I can get up it, but have not managed to get all the way to the top without a pause for reflection. In fact, if I stop pedalling, I fall of backwards....it's that steep.

The answer is not gearing: I have a 30 chainring with a 23t cassette. I could upgrade the cassette, but then the hill wins.....

Any thoughts on a training regime that will have me sprinting up in 53*12?

Anonymous

Just keep at it! It really is the best way. When I started out there was a hill near me I always came a cropper on called Coal Pit Lane near Macclesfield Forest. I had to stop three times the first time I went up it, nowadays I'm not even in bottom gear.

The satisfaction when you do manage it will be worth every bit of sweat and aching!

chuckcork

Starwasp wrote:

Any thoughts on a training regime that will have me sprinting up in 53*12?

If there was my time up Box Hill would be rather less than it is...

Pokerface

Try moving to the Peak District. 25% hills that go on for a mile!

As far as improving on your 16% hill - try finding a shorter one somewhere and ride THAT one until it's easy. Then find a bigger hill.

Or just keep at your 16% one and eventually it will get easier and easier. It really will.

Shaky

After 2 failed attempts, I managed to get up Yorks Hill this morning (and that was after spinning my way up Ide Hill Road beforehand - my legs felt like they'd been pulverised with a blunt instrument by the time I got home!). As NapoleonD says, the only way to improve on a hill is to keep riding it. The good thing is that you're still going back and trying to beat it. You'll get there if you persevere.

And according to my Garmin, Yorks Hill nudges 25% in places :shock:

a_n_t

Pokerface wrote:

Try moving to the Peak District. 25% hills that go on for a mile!

we're so lucky!

popette

a_n_t wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Try moving to the Peak District. 25% hills that go on for a mile!

we're so lucky!

got a map of that one? not pym chair is it? I've only ever come down that one

EDIT: sorry to hijack thread a bit

GavH

Why not try getting half way up, then come back down, have a quick breather and go back up to the half way point? Repeat until you can't even reach halfway. Do a couple of sessions like this and I'll bet you can manage it once bottom to top the first time you try.

Anonymous

The Mow Cop mile is often referred to as a mile at 25% but it's only at the top it kicks up. The rest of the mile it's 'only' 15-20%

dennisn

Starwasp wrote:

The answer is not gearing: I have a 30 chainring with a 23t cassette. I could upgrade the cassette, but then the hill wins.....

So you've already got a triple(I assume, what with the 30 tooth) so why not put a bigger gear on the back? Use what it takes to get you up the hill. Getting halfway up a hill
and falling over doesn't sound like the way to go IMHO. To be honest no one really cares what gear you use and every one of us is different in what we require.

Dennis Noward

Pokerface

popette wrote:

a_n_t wrote:

Pokerface wrote:

Try moving to the Peak District. 25% hills that go on for a mile!

we're so lucky!

got a map of that one? not pym chair is it? I've only ever come down that one

EDIT: sorry to hijack thread a bit

Winnat's Pass is 20% and over a mile long. I thought it was 25%.

salsarider79

I did a 25% hill outside salisbury on my langster, several times during a 40/50mile ride (depended on exact route I took...) Feel very proud of that. My commute takes me up a 16% hill on the way home. It is a case of keep going, decide your going to do it no matter what, feel the anger and the burn....failing that a new cassette and more practise.

andrewgturnbull

Zig zag.

ColinJ

Pokerface wrote:

Try moving to the Peak District. 25% hills that go on for a mile!

I don't believe that there is a public road anywhere in the UK that averages 25% for a mile - that would be an altitude gain of 1,320 feet!

I'm know that there are plenty of hills that are very steep for a mile and include sections of 25% but that's not the same thing.

ScottieP

Starwasp

My strategy has been to work my way up hills of increasing difficulty. I live not that far from you and conquerored Groombridge Hill (only 11%), then moved onto Kidds Hill (both are on the Hell of Ashdown route) and am now looking for tougher hills as I've got a bit stronger.

By the way - where exactly is Yorks Hill - I might have to come and have a go too!

ScottieP

Bhima

You want to try to reserve your "all-out" effort for the latest possible time. After a few tries, you'll see that the latest possible time you can hold back for will move further and further down the road! Try and take it easy for as long as possible, even if it means going slow.

Don't look at your speedometer! (No really, dont!) If you get nervous about the hill, your heart rate goes up which doesn't help if it's a hot day. The added heart stress will take precious centimeters off your absolute maximum climb length!

Most 15% + hills will have very very short sections of 5-10% bits on them (even if just for one pedal-stroke's worth of cycling) so I sometimes feel great once it starts to get the slightest bit easier and so I decide to start sprinting it and then almost die towards the end...

Have a big drink 5 minutes before the hill.

If you're forced to stand up (you shouldn't on a triple), your heart rate goes through the roof so increase the difficulty of the gears if you start to breathe out of control. If your legs explode, shift down gears and sit down asap.

When you do go all-out make a conscious effort to do extremely deep/quick breaths. When you are forced to stop, you'll probably feel really dizzy though!

You could always try and lose a bit of fat too - the extra weight could mean the difference between conquering the hill and falling short.

mrdim

Seems like no one's actually told you where it is!. Yorks Hill runs parallel with the road approaching Ide Hill from the South. Put Winkhurst Green into streetmap.co.uk follow the road north. You can turn left and join the road to Ide Hill or right and go up Yorks Hill. Its a bitch. Enjoy.

oldwelshman

Bhima I don't know where you get some of this stuff from
Take a big drink 5 minutes before the climb? Why? Just drink normally for the rest of the ride. It is easy to get a stich if you drink a lot or eat something before doing a close to max effort so I would not eat or drink just before such an effort.
The stress casued by worrying about a climb raising your heart rate? Oh come on its a climb, your really sad if you get stressed about a climb
Increase gear when out of saddle? Why? Sometimes on a steep hill I will climb out of the saddle using a gear I can climb in whilst seated, you don't "have" to change up a gear every time you get out of saddle, it may help to relax the legs a bit in a lower gear.
There is no need to do change "up" as you will tyre faster as you get anaerobic then blow, even if you don't get anaerobic your legs will eventually fburn with lactic acid, which is what is probably happening to the poster.
As Dennis suggested just put a bigger sprocket on the back until you get strong enough to beat the climb on the bigger gears, theres no shame in that.
There is one climb where I used to live over a mile long with over 30% grade and you have no choice but to climb out of saddle but sometimes when tired I use a lower gear to stop legs burning so much, if feeling fitter and climb it at start of ride (first few miles) I would use slightly bigger gear.

Bhima

oldwelshman wrote:

Take a big drink 5 minutes before the climb? Why? Just drink normally for the rest of the ride.

It's probably not very scientific, I know. But it works for me. always seem to get a boost from it.

oldwelshman wrote:

Oh come on its a climb, your really sad if you get stressed about a climb

If the original poster has not made it up the climb, it's fair to assume they're probably getting really stressed about it!

oldwelshman wrote:

Increase gear when out of saddle? Why? Sometimes on a steep hill I will climb out of the saddle using a gear I can climb in whilst seated, you don't "have" to change up a gear every time you get out of saddle, it may help to relax the legs a bit in a lower gear.

You've answered your own question! Go back and read - I said that! It's good to do it if you're seriously out of breath and, similarly, it's good to shift down when your legs are burning.

Tom Butcher

oldwelshman wrote:

Bhima I don't know where you get some of this stuff from
Take a big drink 5 minutes before the climb? Why?

He means take a big drink 5 minutes before posting on here

Bhima

Pokerface

Bhima wrote:

If you're forced to stand up (you shouldn't on a triple), your heart rate goes through the roof so increase the difficulty of the gears if you start to breathe out of control.

Your heart rate should only increase about 5bpm standing from seated on the same climb. It will NOT explode.

oldwelshman

Bhima wrote:

If you're forced to stand up (you shouldn't on a triple), your heart rate goes through the roof so increase the difficulty of the gears if you start to breathe out of control. If your legs explode, shift down gears and sit down asap.

.

Ok I went back and read it and it says above to stand up and increase the difficulty of the gears, then if struggling change down and sit down, it does not say change down and stay out of saddle unless I miss read what you typed?
On some hills it is physically impossible to sit down as the front wheel will come off floor.
Also is there any reason you cannnot stand on a tripple?

ScottieP

mrdim wrote:

Seems like no one's actually told you where it is!. Yorks Hill runs parallel with the road approaching Ide Hill from the South. Put Winkhurst Green into streetmap.co.uk follow the road north. You can turn left and join the road to Ide Hill or right and go up Yorks Hill. Its a *****. Enjoy.

Thanks MrDim - found it - it's very close to a ride I'm planning going up Bayley's Hill so I'll have to check it out too.
ScottieP

Bhima

oldwelshman wrote:

Bhima wrote:

If you're forced to stand up (you shouldn't on a triple), your heart rate goes through the roof so increase the difficulty of the gears if you start to breathe out of control. If your legs explode, shift down gears and sit down asap.

.

Ok I went back and read it and it says above to stand up and increase the difficulty of the gears, then if struggling change down and sit down, it does not say change down and stay out of saddle unless I miss read what you typed?
On some hills it is physically impossible to sit down as the front wheel will come off floor.
Also is there any reason you cannnot stand on a tripple?

No, you can stand on a triple - I was just saying that any keen cyclist who is relatively fit should not have to stand. If they do, it shouldn't be long before they get fitter and can simply spin up the hill using it.

What I meant was - regardless of weather you're stood up or not, if your breathing is out of control, pushing a massive gear can help you get your breath back but it can destroy your legs so try to balance the high gears with the low gears (if you can't stay on a middle gear).

nolf

I'm a pretty fit cyclist and find I go out of the saddle up hills.
Lets you accelerate more easily with changing paces and gradients.

Also the extra leverage with the arms when it starts to get steep can be helpful.

oldwelshman

Bhima wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Bhima wrote:

If you're forced to stand up (you shouldn't on a triple), your heart rate goes through the roof so increase the difficulty of the gears if you start to breathe out of control. If your legs explode, shift down gears and sit down asap.

.

Ok I went back and read it and it says above to stand up and increase the difficulty of the gears, then if struggling change down and sit down, it does not say change down and stay out of saddle unless I miss read what you typed?
On some hills it is physically impossible to sit down as the front wheel will come off floor.
Also is there any reason you cannnot stand on a tripple?

No, you can stand on a triple - I was just saying that any keen cyclist who is relatively fit should not have to stand. If they do, it shouldn't be long before they get fitter and can simply spin up the hill using it.

What I meant was - regardless of weather you're stood up or not, if your breathing is out of control, pushing a massive gear can help you get your breath back but it can destroy your legs so try to balance the high gears with the low gears (if you can't stay on a middle gear).

So, let me get this right, on one hand you say getting out of the saddle and driving a bigger gear makes your heart rate go through the roof, but at the same time, pushing a big gear helps you recover? :roll:
As far as I know, if your heart rate increases so does your rate of breathing so how would getting out of the saddle and pushing a bigger gear help you recover if as you say your heart rate goes through the roof?
There is nothing wrong with standing out of the saddle on a lower gear, that may help to recover but pushing a bigger gear, no way, if your putting out more power you will pay some where not recover.
Best way for the OP to get over the hill is lower gears, thats the only way at the moment.

Bhima

Bigger Gears = Muscles under pressure
Smaller Gears = Lungs under pressure - Increased Heart Rate as a result

So if you're out of breath, pushing a massive gear out of the saddle will help your breathing recover, compared to pushing an easier gear out of the saddle. Yes, by standing up, your heart rate will increase but I was trying to say that pushing smaller gears will increase it even more, so by pushing bigger gears, you can lower it slightly. Sure, it'll still be high, but it wont be as high as it would if you are on easier gears.

Understand?

If you don't belive me, try it with a HRM, you'll see.

GeorgeShaw

Bhima wrote:

Bigger Gears = Muscles under pressure
Smaller Gears = Lungs under pressure - Increased Heart Rate as a result

So if you're out of breath, pushing a massive gear out of the saddle will help your breathing recover, compared to pushing an easier gear out of the saddle. Yes, by standing up, your heart rate will increase but I was trying to say that pushing smaller gears will increase it even more, so by pushing bigger gears, you can lower it slightly. Sure, it'll still be high, but it wont be as high as it would if you are on easier gears.

Understand?

If you don't belive me, try it with a HRM, you'll see.

I have to agree with oldwelshman, that's the biggest load of rubbish I've heard in a long time. Your heart rate goes up with your breathing which goes up when you do more work - which, when climbing, corresponds to your rate of ascent. Any correlation with gearing and/or in/out of the saddle is relatively small, and has to do with your efficiency at that gearing and in that bike position.

You might recover "by pushing a massive gear", but that would only be because you're going slower and it feels like you're pushing a massive gear.

The only way to recover is to go slower - just look at the pros. The climbers can manage a brief anaerobic surge or a longer sustained effort just above threshold, but then they have to rein back to recover. You won't see them changing up to do that. The only ones seemingly "pushing a massive gear" are those going backwards.

Agent57

My killer hill that I can't get up at the moment is the climb to Jubilee Tower (near Lancaster) from Quernmore; specifically the part between Quernmore and Brow Top Farm. I had a look at a map, and the gradient indicators are single chevrons, which means it's somewhere between 14% (1 in 7) and 20% (1 in 5). I managed to get up it 12 months ago, but that was on a mountain bike. At the moment I'm trying in my lowest gear (42/24) and failing dismally.

Slow1972

Bhima wrote:

Bigger Gears = Muscles under pressure
Smaller Gears = Lungs under pressure - Increased Heart Rate as a result

So if you're out of breath, pushing a massive gear out of the saddle will help your breathing recover, compared to pushing an easier gear out of the saddle. Yes, by standing up, your heart rate will increase but I was trying to say that pushing smaller gears will increase it even more, so by pushing bigger gears, you can lower it slightly. Sure, it'll still be high, but it wont be as high as it would if you are on easier gears.

Understand?

If you don't belive me, try it with a HRM, you'll see.

What a load of tosh. If you're struggling with a small gear seated I reckon you're big gear out of the saddle effort will be very very short lived. If you're breathing heavily on a steep climb there's no way your lungs and heart are under pressure but your legs are okay - as previous posters have said the HR and heavy breathing is a result of the effort you're having to put in. Its not like even on a 30x23 that he's "spinning" up the hill, with legs that are stress free, he'll probably still have a fairly low cadence with that gearing.

The options are either get used to pushing the 30x23 at the same speed, try to reduce the effort by going slower in that gear or stick a bigger cassette on, I don't see the shame in sticking a 26 or 27 on if it means you get up the hill. You can drop back to a 25, 23 sprocket etc as you get fitter.... personally I'd rather have a 26 on and pedal up than a 23 and walk

I'm pretty much a seated climber but out of the saddle (in the same gear) on hard sections can help, you've got your body weight on the pedals, you can get your weight forward, you get a bit of extra leverage and it uses slightly different muscles

I reckon if you stick with it you'll see progress. My advice (fwiw) is get a bigger sprocket on the back and make sure you go with a nice and easy pace from the start so you don't go into the red too early

The worrying thing is people may actually read this forum and take Bhima's advice literally....