Is buying British really better?
Naveed
Posts: 728
There has always been a strong belief to buy British and I for one am all for this ... BUT ... I shall only do this if buying British offers me the best product at the best price.
On that score I WON'T be buying British - look at Orange bikes, great company and nice product, but do their folded sheet metal design and single pivot suspension models offer better value and build quality than the likes of a top US manufacturer - maybe they do, but I can't see how ...
I do think Hope are a special British brand as they offer kit that is globally up there with the best and often at very competitive prices.
It's sad as I do like Orange bikes and Pace bikes, but sadly feel that their pricing is out of my budget and the build quality is not at all reflected in how they reach their prices.
For Orange and Pace I say look at Specialized, Trek, GT
For Avid and Hayes and even Shimano, I say look at Hope.
On that score I WON'T be buying British - look at Orange bikes, great company and nice product, but do their folded sheet metal design and single pivot suspension models offer better value and build quality than the likes of a top US manufacturer - maybe they do, but I can't see how ...
I do think Hope are a special British brand as they offer kit that is globally up there with the best and often at very competitive prices.
It's sad as I do like Orange bikes and Pace bikes, but sadly feel that their pricing is out of my budget and the build quality is not at all reflected in how they reach their prices.
For Orange and Pace I say look at Specialized, Trek, GT
For Avid and Hayes and even Shimano, I say look at Hope.
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Comments
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to answer the question and not read the words.
No."Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
Parktools :?:SheldonBrown0 -
I'd say no too .In general. There are some custom producers that make kit for a fortune, but so too do other places in the world.
I don't think Hope are that competetive either to be honest.0 -
peace Nick
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i dont think that Hope work that well either.
not since the old silver 2 piece brakes.
like their headsets though."Do not follow where the path may lead, Go instead where there is no path, and Leave a Trail."
Parktools :?:SheldonBrown0 -
Read before you write - lmao0
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Alright Supersonic,
Hope you're well mate. I started this debate because the guy who makes bikes for Orange was speaking out against the lack of industry in the UK. He was arguing against the UK becoming a service sector economy (which it is) but at the end of the day he needs to realise that a British stamp has to have some real value and meaning for it to carry some weight and credibility around the world.
Orange bikes are hardly market leaders of technical innovation, or in relation to value.
What's the point of them and who on earth buys their bikes?0 -
Yea I don't think i'd buy an orange... personally I think the you could buy more for your money elsewhere.
They *look* quite heavy and cumbersome compared to competition too.
Its the same with hope brakes IMO. Yea they're good, but you can get better for the same price or less.0 -
Hi Big Benj
Hope you've been well0 -
Fine thanks mate
Glad you changed your user name - no hard feelings from before fella.0 -
US manufacturer
The chances are they're gonna be manufactured in asia somewhere.
One of the large American frame manufactures recenlty switched production to the far east and has been slated for it. Damm cannot remeber who it was.
But there argument for it was the fact that Far eastern manufacturers can make the frames just as well as they can but for far cheaper.
I wonder how long Orange can go on making frames here and still remain competative!0 -
I think the folded design that Orange use works really well. You do pay more for a bike that's properly made in Britain, but the genuine advantage I reckon, is the development.
If you order all your bikes from a factory abroad, you're stuck with a design for a lot longer than if you can produce a prototype a day. So experience wise, I reckon people like Orange know what works a bit better than some others. For me, I'm not so bothered with getting the most shiny parts for the money as getting a bike that rides well.
If I had been on more of a budget when I was buying, it might have been a different story though!
A big plus point for Hope stuff is the availability of parts for years, so you practically never have to chuck their stuff unless it properly breaks. I've never been able to feel much difference between different disc brakes. A few are really bad, but most seem about the same to me.0 -
Switchback
You've made a really good point but I think the real problem for British bike manufacturing is the MASSIVE increase in quality control and construction overseas. The big companies who have their frames built in Asia understood early on that perceptions of foreign builds was poor so they set out to change this as they knew getting it right would dramatically improve their sales.
In my opinion the manufacturers have got it right, frames conducted in central asia are of extremely good quality and when it comes to protypes, testing, and safety, the likes of British home made bike builders cannot complete in terms of technology.
I mean put it this way; Pace have just released a new full suspension 'All Mountain' bike using the well known four bar linkage design. Why should I buy the Pace and not Trek's ABP suspension bikes or Giant's Maestro range?
If the likes of Pace and Orange could offer me something other manufacturers can't than I would happily part with my cash.
Thing is, if I was to buy an Orange it would be out of sympathy, a mere goodwill gesture for British manufacturing...0 -
Many bikes ride well - and a lot is a matter of opinion, one man's geometry may not be anothers.
British frames cost more because they are made in smaller batches, the staff are paid more and the factories over in Asia can churn stuff out faster. And at very high quality.
Does not mean the British stuff is any better though.
If you can afford the bike you like, and enjoy, then it is good value. I for one do not buy British produced bike goods as I don't have much money and need maximum value, which many foreign sourced brands provide me.
PS I'm not too bad, cheers!0 -
Say any poster on this debate had the grand idea of creating a quality British bike brand that would be as good as anything else; what would they have to do?
I think a really good example is Santa Cruz - I remember when they started; they were a MINISCULE company with only one bike:The Heckler.
With smart design, and good styling coupled with a racy image, they are now a serious bike company whose products easily rival those of bigger producers.
Maybe that's where British bike makers need to develop - they need to offer riders something different, just like Santa Cruz did way back in 1997.
In America you have all your major brands, and then you have your boutique brands like Turner, Ellsworth, Yeti and Ventana.
Thing I've noticed is that these 'so called' boutique brands are more mainstream now, but I couldn't say the same about Orange or Pace.
Why?0 -
looking forward to seeing the orange R8 coming this summer i think, hopefully not using mavic 117 rims and costing £2000.0
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Pace are made in Taiwan anyway, but I reckon Orange full sus frames do the job well. The folded design seems much stronger to me. The Five that I ride is not that heavy but seems almost downhill bike tough. I haven't seen a Five break yet, whereas I've heard of quite a few breakages of the competitors bikes. Not exactly statistics... I've heard a lot of people who reckon Oranges look out of date, but I like their design philoshophy of 'if it works keep it'. Don't forget that these days, lots of brands of any kind of consumer goods run on hype.
It's working out if anyone's 'hype' is true that's the difficult bit.0 -
dunker wrote:looking forward to seeing the orange R8 coming this summer i think, hopefully not using mavic 117 rims and costing £2000.
Orange steel frames are a good example - is the P7 really 200 quids worth more than a OnOne 456? Both similar weight, for similar riding, heat treated butted cromo.0 -
Further to what I said, once upon a time the place of manufacture was indicative of quality - a swiss watch, a British engineered gearset, a Saville Row suit, or in a slightly different vein, a French wine. The place was the reason. But today we can't make these generalisations as easily, we have to judge the item for what it is.
Of course, you may buy for other reasons such as supporting a certain economy.0 -
Have you actually ridden the Orange and Pace bikes you're dismissing? If so, what was wrong with them? What's the issue with build quality?
I understand the point that they're expensive, but they're boutique brands. The apparently more mainstream (I wouldn't necessarily agree with this) Santa Cruz, Yeti, Ellsworth etc are also really expensive. Why buy those instead of a Trek?
Orange and Pace do offer riders something different and some people must like how they ride or else so many wouldn't buy them. An Orange 5 is probably the most common bike I've seen at UK trail centres.
To answer the original question without the waffle, no, buying British is not somehow intrinsically better. Did you have even a shadow of a doubt that the answer would be any different? It's expensive compared to similar specced products produced in the far east and we all know that.0 -
It probably doesn't matter. We have no pride in our manufacturing in this country and this is why we'll be stuck in a recession long after everyone has dug themselves out. When your currency is worth nothing, you recover by means of exports. No coincidence that you hear so much whining on these forums about how much Shimano kit has gone up in price lately.
I don't know (or care really) how much more my P7 cost compared to a similarly equipped mainstream companies equivalent; a significant reason that I bought it was that by buying it I knew that I was helping a manufacturing business in my own country (own county infact!). I daresay I could have bought a better equiped bike made by a dreary multinational mainstream company for the same money but I'd still be crap on it either way so, I recon I get better value for money by putting some of my income into the local economy!
As to build quality - I can't think of anything on my P7 that could have been done better. Absolutely spot on.Faster than a tent.......0 -
Do you think if some british companies were to invest in the machinery needed for automated welding it would lose it's 'handmade in England' appeal?0
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P7
BTW, your P7 is made in Taiwan, not the UK
of course, indirectly you are helping Orange make more profit (as its cheaper for them to build the P7 in TW than the UK) but you are not directly helping a british worker in Orange's factory...
it doesn't really matter where a product is made anymore in terms of the "quality" as this depends on the individual factory and the overall cost of the goods, but a company like HOPE is holding its own against Chris King, Shimano, etc. in terms of hubs and brakes, and its British made too!!Call 01372 476 969 for more information on UK\'s leading freeride park - Esher Shore www.eshershore.com0 -
Rolf F wrote:It probably doesn't matter. We have no pride in our manufacturing in this country and this is why we'll be stuck in a recession long after everyone has dug themselves out. When your currency is worth nothing, you recover by means of exports. No coincidence that you hear so much whining on these forums about how much Shimano kit has gone up in price lately.
I don't know (or care really) how much more my P7 cost compared to a similarly equipped mainstream companies equivalent; a significant reason that I bought it was that by buying it I knew that I was helping a manufacturing business in my own country (own county infact!). I daresay I could have bought a better equiped bike made by a dreary multinational mainstream company for the same money but I'd still be crap on it either way so, I recon I get better value for money by putting some of my income into the local economy!
As to build quality - I can't think of anything on my P7 that could have been done better. Absolutely spot on.
Seconded. I looked at several bikes and will be buying soon, I looked at the Zesty but unless I just don't get on with the Orange 5 I'd rather spend my money with a British company.
There was a lot of complaining about how the local shops are going out of business but the very same people were going to chain super markets, we get a choice where we spend our money and we can influence the success or failure of British industry.
My question to the OP are you proud of this country and do you wish to see industry here do well? I love my country for all it's flaws and I'd rather my £££ support local business where possible.
Finally since the Orange 5 gets such a fantastic review as does the P7 and several other of the bikes how is this substandard in anyway?0 -
"support local business where possible. "
That's the crux for many people though - where possible.0 -
supersonic wrote:"support local business where possible. "
That's the crux for many people though - where possible.
And you get a pretty damn good bike for your money with Orange otherwise why would they get such good reviews? You can get cheaper bikes with better kit but if they rode as well as say the 5 or P7 they'd win hands down by being cheaper.
I appreciate where you coming from but the specs aren't everything as with many things. On paper some cars seem to have the same spec as a BMW or an Audi but in the end the German cars are well known for their engineering and rightly so. Doesn't mean they are the best value for money but you get a damn good car for your money.
And there 'where possible' bit generally is a lazy mans opt out...people can't be bothered these days and often pay more at tescos for inferior goods than locally grown goods which by the way have a massively larger carbon footprint due to the fact they've been flown round the world, if you care about that kind of thing.0 -
Is all your bike British produced then? If not you are no better than anyone else, just a different line drawn ;-)
And as I said earlier, ride is subjective too. OnOne 456 gets better reviews in MBUK and WMB and is a damn sight cheaper.0 -
ESHER SHORE wrote:P7
BTW, your P7 is made in Taiwan, not the UK
of course, indirectly you are helping Orange make more profit (as its cheaper for them to build the P7 in TW than the UK) but you are not directly helping a british worker in Orange's factory...
it doesn't really matter where a product is made anymore in terms of the "quality" as this depends on the individual factory and the overall cost of the goods, but a company like HOPE is holding its own against Chris King, Shimano, etc. in terms of hubs and brakes, and its British made too!!
Are you sure thats the p7? I thought it was a different frame maybe the crush?0 -
P7 is 'designed' in the UK, made in the far east.0
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Only the monocoque frames are made in Halifax: the 5, Alpine 160, 224 evo, Patriot, Sub Zero, sub 5, Big T...
The Blood & ST4 I'm not sure where they're made
all the other frames are Taiwanese.
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ESHER SHORE wrote:BTW, your P7 is made in Taiwan, not the UK
The only Orange bikes made in Taiwan are the G series, the P7 is made in Halifax according to the following: http://www.bikeradar.com/news/article/interview-lester-noble-of-orange-mountain-bikes-20341 Although it's not totally clear... maybe it means that some hardtails are assembled here, but the G series is assembled in Taiwan as well as the frames being made there.0
