Is buying British really better?
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dave_hill wrote:ISomebody (I think it was the OP) said that they're low tech and haven't moved on. IS being low-tech a bad thing? Don't you think that Orange have found a winning formula and it being a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it?"
Orange openly admit that the don't change stuff for the sake of changing it. A lot of bike companys do precisely that, or jump on the same bandwagon as everybody else, come up with some fantastic marketing blurb and we all swallow it without question.
That is one appeal of the bike, the simple single pivot - stiff, less to go wrong, one main pivot. Same why the Heckler has as many fans, as does the Prophet, and the Meta (albeit they have a link driven shock).
Saying that so do some Oranges now!
A lot will come down the geo you prefer. A good shock with the same pivot position and the sus action will feel remarkably similar through the stroke. I don't get on with the kickback of SP designs hence my preference for lower pivot positions and the Idrive.0 -
supersonic wrote:That is one appeal of the bike, the simple single pivot - stiff, less to go wrong, one main pivot. Same why the Heckler has as many fans, as does the Prophet, and the Meta (albeit they have a link driven shock).
Saying that so do some Oranges now!
But how long has it taken them to start producing linkage bikes? And can you really call the Blood a linkage-driven shock?0 -
dave_hill wrote:
But how long has it taken them to start producing linkage bikes? And can you really call the Blood a linkage-driven shock?
I think he meant the ST4!0 -
English bikes seem a bit themed, usually steel tubed bikes, rack mounts, tons of tyre clearance etc. I like it though, wouldn't mind one myself. I wouldn't say the value is much worse either, Orange is a bit of an exception to the rule, the likes of On-One, Cotic, Charge and Genesis are fantastic value.
It's better value than buying American boutique brands, Santa Cruz etc. Fairly cheap in the US, hugely inflated over here, leading us to think they're even more special, bizarre.
Orange aren't massively bad value either though to be honest, what they do, they do very well. They're built for chucking around, getting muddy, throwing down the alps, having an epic adventure on the next day.
I still think single pivot is the dogs nuts as well, after riding about everything on the market it's what I'm sticking to. Pedal feedback I only get if my seating position is wrong in relation to the BB, bouncing while climbing agressively is normally just bad technique, 4 bar bikes and things are just as prone to it.0 -
Pedal feedback is related to the pivot point and resulting axle path, whether 4 bar (which vary enormously) or SP, which vary too.
A typical FSR has a low pivot position with less chain growth - more bob prone, more active, but less kickback. Also good under braking due to the way the caliper rotates in relation to the axle.
A classic 'chainline' position pivot like the Orange 5 and Meta will indeed pedal well in certain gear combos as the anti squat generated will oppose your weight shifts - smooth pedaliing, but kickback if you hit a bump and more noticable in smaller gears. The further forward and up that pivot is, the more the pedals will kickback. Also typically more braking interferance.
I really think DW has nailed it though. By having a virtual pivot that shifts through the stroke, you get all the anti squat you need when pedalling, and minimal feedback deeper into the travel as the pivot location shifts closer to the BB. I Drive achieves a similar effect by moving the BB shell and rotating it slightly to smooth pedal stroke, yet has the rearward axle path and bump sensitivity of a high single pivot bike.
Which all means jack sh1t. Ride, like, buy.0 -
dave_hill wrote:supersonic wrote:That is one appeal of the bike, the simple single pivot - stiff, less to go wrong, one main pivot. Same why the Heckler has as many fans, as does the Prophet, and the Meta (albeit they have a link driven shock).
Saying that so do some Oranges now!
But how long has it taken them to start producing linkage bikes? And can you really call the Blood a linkage-driven shock?
The Blood is a faux bar design, or single pivot with linkage driven shock:
You can see the pivot next to the axle on the chainstay, and the link next to the shock. The st4 uses a rocker rather than a swing link but is still a faux bar set up.
In both cases the axle rotates around the main frame pivot (much lower than a Orange 5, this should be a more active, more bob prone design but with less kickback) with a set of linkages and/or rockers to drive the shock and tune the rate and leverage. The st4 rocker is basically an extended swing link, with the shock driven from the other side of its pivot on a solid extension.0 -
^^^^^^^^pass the tissues ^^^^^^
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Ah but will it be as good though? No bent sheets of alu, no monocoques, different sus layout...0
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Can't believe no one has mentioned Whyte yet. Unless they are not considered British enough?Whyte 905 (2009)
Trek 1.5 (2009)
Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp (2007)0 -
Well this is the debate - at what point is a brand British? Where are the whites actually made?
Genesis are merely UK designed. (As are some Oranges as pointed out)
And just for a bit of trollish content - I didn't buy my five because it was British, I bought it because it was better than y'all bikes!
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Whytes are British designed, Taiwanese made. As Whyte are a British company I see the bikes as British.
And I didn't buy one because it's British I bought it because it was the best of the bunch. And that included an Orange as well as the usual big brand suspects.Whyte 905 (2009)
Trek 1.5 (2009)
Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp (2007)0 -
I love a bit of good old harmless "my bike's better than your bike" on a Monday morning 8)0
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As long as the bikes in question are British designed or made or both ;-)
Saying that I quite like the Orange Crush. But the extra for the Whyte 905 was well worth it in my opinion.Whyte 905 (2009)
Trek 1.5 (2009)
Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp (2007)0 -
who cares where a bikes designed or made, as long as you have fun. I'd rather have a bike made from the tears of orphans locked in a cave and made to work 23hrs a day while being whipped if it was fun as opposed to a dull one by two engineers put together in their mothers shed in the midands.0
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You clearly missed the sarcasm in my first line Papasmurf.Whyte 905 (2009)
Trek 1.5 (2009)
Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Comp (2007)0 -
How much stuff is actually British?
Does anyone have a list of manufacturers who deisign and make their parts in Britain?
To be honest I only buy British if it makes sense.
Crud catchers for instance are unique - a design that many have tried to immitate and failed. Hope are another good example - parts that look great and therefore will convince you to part with that little bit extra cash.
Orange are interesting...Is the single pivot an old design that is now out of date? or has it simply been perfected over the years? If single pivot is so good then why are Orange releasing pivots with linkages all of a sudden?
I wouldn't buy one, but not because I don't like them, but because I can't find any out here. It's also impossible to find Crud Catchers here, even Hope is seen as an exclusive when you can find it.
So.....you'd better all buy British cos no-one else outside of Britain has a chance to!Not really active0 -
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Damn right!Not really active0
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Is the single pivot an old design that is now out of date?
There will always be new innovations and attempts to solve certain 'problems', and people ride in different ways.
SP will always have it's place - a lot of people liking the simplicity and ease of maintenance.
I personally prefer SP bikes because of how they feel. Pedal feedback and brake jack are not things that bother me - I don't notice them but I tend to just get the hell on with my riding and power through these things. I do however like how SP bikes seem to channel your inputs (such as pumping) into forwards momentum whereas, FSRs at least, always feel like the effort is just going downwards but not forwards. So for me, SP bikes have this pump and squirt feel when doing flat or dh singletrack. I keep using Spesh FSRs as an example as I've ridden a few and a re popular, they tend to give a real nice smooth magic carpet ride but don't really respond to giving them a good wringing and attacking into sections.
So to answer your question no, they'll always have their place. Hell, in this months WMB the pretty ancient SP 'dale Rush faired really well as does the Prophet in recent reviews so it's not just those crazy boys up in halifax rocking out on SPs.0 -
Sorry to open up a point about suspension systems, it was just a passing thought.
Do you ride a British SP design or one of the many competetors?Not really active0 -
I have a handmade in america boutique bike frame.
Why did i buy it? Because it was in the sale!
It represented the best value for money for me at that time.
the national economy is one thing, mine is another and far more important to me!
I will only buy hope brakes though, i've tried most of the others and nothing beats M4s IMHO.0 -
Ferret - I ride an Orange Five...0
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good for you, truly wish I could have tried one out before I bought my bike. Why don't Orange have any representation out here?
I saw them at Eurobike but that was it. The only reason some people have even heard of Orange is becuase of Steve Peat.
Didn't there used to be more British manufacturers? What ever happened to X-Lite?Not really active0 -
Don't get me wrong Ferret - if it had been a stinker I wouldn't have bothered
They could have gone global in a big way off the back of Steve Peat but the owners wanted to maintain control and carry on doing what they enjoy doing so fair play to them really.0 -
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More British brands:
Saracen, Merlin, Raleigh, Townsend, Falcon, Carrera, Claud Butler, Apollo and a number of supermarket specials.
We don't tend to think of them the same we we do Whyte!0 -
I used to have a Dawes. Not what you'd call stunning I guess but I liked it.0
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SO what was the conclusion of this thread? Chat less ride more? :P0
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zero303 wrote:SO what was the conclusion of this thread? Chat less ride more? :P
Conclusion: (Certain) Orange owners don`t take the bait like they used too 0
