Filtering

graeme_s-2

I think part of what we're missing here is that we all ride on different roads. If we were to try a commute on each other's routes, we might find we're all in agreement about which side to filter on those roads.

The best person to decide which side to filter on in any of these situations is the cyclist who's making the decision. I think this thread has been quite useful and has certainly given me some things to think about.

bigmat

I think its a matter of judging what is safest at the time - best to avoid unnecessary prescriptive rules on what is best. If there's enough room on the left, I generally find it safer as you don't have a contra flow of traffic to worry about. If there's plenty of space on the right, that might be a better option. Factor in turnings left or right, volume of pedestrians, approaching parked vehicles (on either side of the road) etc etc and at all times assume that NOBODY can see you - never think "I'm safest here because driver A and driver B can see me" as whether or not they see you depends on whether or not they are looking (and usually they aren't). I have had taxis do u-turns in front of me - safe to filter on the right then?

lost_in_thought

@whyamihere -

In both situations 2 and 3 I'm pretty happy that I'd have noticed what was going on before it became a problem. If a bus is coming the other way and taking up the whole lane, and it's tight enough that any movement by a 4x4 would block me, I'd have clocked the situation and be moving slowly enough to evade the 4x4.

Filtering through stationary traffic in a small gap I'm aware of peds and doors and the like, and therefore going slowly with spidey sense on full tingle.

An example from my side:

Stationary or very slow moving traffic, I'm on the right, on the wrong side of the road. Bus comes, taking whole lane. Unfortunately traffic is stopped and therefore can't get out of my way, or is slow moving and not paying attention, only option open to me is squeezing into a gap between cars or scuttling over to the left through a bike-width gap.

I would say I should have been on the left in that situation.

whyamihere

lost_in_thought wrote:

Stationary or very slow moving traffic, I'm on the right, on the wrong side of the road. Bus comes, taking whole lane. Unfortunately traffic is stopped and therefore can't get out of my way, or is slow moving and not paying attention, only option open to me is squeezing into a gap between cars or scuttling over to the left through a bike-width gap.

I would say I should have been on the left in that situation.

If it's that tight, that would be a situation where I would say no filtering at all. I should have made this clear, but when I'm filtering, I will only go if there's enough space between the traffic and the centre line to fit my bike in, and so avoid anything taking up the whole of the other lane. If I can't fit my bike in, I don't go.

I'm interested how you predict a door opening in your path when you're very close to it though?

graeme_s-2

I think filtering on the right seems scary if you haven't done it. It always looks like a very narrow gap between the two lanes when you're in the primary position, but once you get out there it feels like you could drive a bus through it. I've never, ever had trouble slipping back into a queue in the way LiT describes above, it's just a case of paying attention and looking ahead. You should always know what oncoming traffic is coming, and always know where you can pull in further ahead.

This morning and yesterday morning I filtered on the right hand side past 1/3 of a mile of stationary or slow moving traffic. I had no problem at all pulling in and stopping for oncoming buses, or moving back across to primary if the traffic started to move a little bit more quickly.

A lot of the problems that left-side filterers are talking about in this thread don't come up so long as you pay attention and plan ahead. If you haven't done much right-side filtering, then I can understand why you might think they would be common problems.

lost_in_thought

whyamihere wrote:

If it's that tight, that would be a situation where I would say no filtering at all. I should have made this clear, but when I'm filtering, I will only go if there's enough space between the traffic and the centre line to fit my bike in, and so avoid anything taking up the whole of the other lane. If I can't fit my bike in, I don't go.

I'm interested how you predict a door opening in your path when you're very close to it though?

So, in that situation, you would not have filtered at all, even if there was a small gap on the left? I'm not trying to be @rsey, I'm just curious.

Maybe it's just the roads I ride on, but I find the gaps are too tight to the right, and as I cycle to get through traffic rather than sit in it I'll stick to the left, or aim to, even if I'm scooting along with my foot pushing off the pavement.

And clearly I can't predict a door opening, I'm not mystic meg, but there are signs that help, like a door latch click, or movement inside a car.

All I can say is nobody's hit me with a car door yet, not for want of trying. I'll probably get punted off the bike by one on the way home this evening. I'll blame you.

What Greg always says about being close to the ambient speed of traffic rings true here, certainly for the evasion of car doors/peds. I'm always at my most cautious and slow-moving filtering through small gaps in stationary traffic.

whyamihere

Correct, I would sit in the queue in that situation. I know it won't be long until either the traffic starts moving again or a gap opens up, so I'm happy to wait for a few minutes. I'd rather end up slightly late than not get there at all due to getting knocked off and injured.

cjcp

MatHammond wrote:

I think its a matter of judging what is safest at the time -

+1.

As Graeme points out, we all ride on different roads and traffic behaviour will vary from road to road e.g. cars often turning left to head down a popular cut through or where cars stick their noses out because their line of sight is obscured.

itboffin

Personally I just assume that EVERYONE on the road is a crazy homicidal maniac, which is pretty close to the truth.

I'm never in that much of a rush to get anywhere that i'd chance my safety, why not sit behind that taxi or bus and suck up some of those tasty fumes, mmmm fumes.

alien

Yes, filtering right is the optimum but not wanting to restate already posted stuff - You do need to use your brain and keep situational awareness at 101% whichever side you prefer.

The other reason (Police) motorbikes filter to the right is a chaos concept - view the 2 traffic flows as water and the middle of 2 opposing flows is turbulent - cars are happy to dive to the left (there's nothing there but the kerb, right?) but they are reluctant to risk a head on with an opposing direction vehicle and you can use that to your advantage.
The IAM instructors I dealt with also had this view.

The obvious exception to this rule is the U turning taxi..

The Left side is 'not safe/optimal' and it was rammed home to me to always prefer the right hand side where possible.

Filtering on a motorbike btw is best at an insurance friendly +12mph to the traffic speed when it has slowed down - any faster and in an accident then shared fault comes into play - this is a rather easy speed for a cyclist to do.

they are all mad, and they are all out to get you.

(yes I ride in London traffic, and yes I have done advanced motorcycle training)

lost_in_thought

cjcp wrote:

MatHammond wrote:

I think its a matter of judging what is safest at the time -

+1.

As Graeme points out, we all ride on different roads and traffic behaviour will vary from road to road e.g. cars often turning left to head down a popular cut through or where cars stick their noses out because their line of sight is obscured.

He has a valid point, as does Graeme. Let's all ride each other's commutes!

EDIT: For some reason, probably irrational, I do feel that motorbikes ought to be on the right in all but very heavy traffic. Don't know why.

graeme_s-2

lost_in_thought wrote:

EDIT: For some reason, probably irrational, I do feel that motorbikes ought to be on the right in all but very heavy traffic. Don't know why.

Because if you're on the left and they're on the right there's no danger of you being run down by an over enthusiastic motorcyclist?

bigmat

also, if they are on the right there is less chance of them getting stuck in a gap that you could easily squeeze through if they weren't in the way, grrrrr

Happens all the time, almost as annoying as when the advanced stop section for (push)bikes is full of mopeds / Faggios and I end up stuck behind them in amongst the heavy road traffic that they are meant to help me avoid. Its probably allowed now though thanks to Boris.

SBezza

I generally will filter on the right when a half mile queue of cars is stopped at the traffic lights, there isn't enough room to go down the left safely. But I travel to work on narrowish country roads, used as rat runs, and I am normally the only cyclist on that route (never seen another commuter on a cycle yet).

Most of these drivers would not expect to have a cycle come down the left side, even if there was room, so the right side is safer IMO, I can see what is coming on the other side, and I can see the front of the queue to see when it starts moving. If I get to the front of the queue whilst the lights are still red, then I will move over to the left hand side. If the traffic starts moving at the front, I will indicate I am moving left and safely move across in plenty of time.

London and other cities are probably safer to filter on the left, because you have bus lanes, two lane roads and the like. You can't compare the two really.

DiggingDeeper

I am a late comer to this thread and I feel most sensible things have been said, however my ride home involved some savage filtering at various parts of the journey.

Looking back over the journey I reckon I adopted a different strategy depending on what part of the journey I was on and how fast the traffic was or wasn't going. I know where the usual horror points are.

I have to cycle on 2 and 3 lane stretches at various points and Tottenham at present is a nightmare.

My real concern is pedestrians. I can handle oncoming traffic down the right. I can see it and avoid it, but pedestrians are just random. With slow moving traffic they come thro the traffic when you are filtering left, step out from that bus when you are going down the right and yes you could go under some oncoming vehicle.

I am never going to stop filtering (may as well drive otherwise) and I will take whatever line will get me there quickest providing there is not some overwhelming safety reason not to.

What you don't do and I was laughing so hard he must have heard me. Some muppet with his hood up pulled out from behind a bus in front of me, never knew I was there and blindly proceeded between bus and car which were getting closer. It was blindingly obvious if you had your eyes open what was going to happen. He ended up smashing cars wing mirror off and getting wedged. That was just plain stupidity.

As regards motorbikes my feeling is that they paying attention to bikes. I had 2 pull over tonight to let me through. One simply wasn't giving it enough down the right at all. He must have sensed my frustration.

So no real revelation. I agree that we all know our roads and what makes us feel safe that's what we go with. No right or wrong, except for hoodie boy!

Northwind

redddraggon wrote:

I've been told filtering is dangerous - especially going up the right side of traffic. The guy who told me that it's dangerous is a fellow roadie, and has completed advanced motorcycle training (CBT?).

The "B" in CBT stands for basic, it's the minimum training you need to do before you're allowed on the road on L plates on a 125, and raises you to approximately the level of a complete beginner cyclist TBH motorbike filtering and pedal filtering are very different, motorbikes have a far greater presence, 1000+ lumens of headlight, massively larger front cross-section and not to mention a noisy engine, all of which makes them much more visible (though ****ing idiots still do illegal u-turns or wander across into your way for no reason at all, of course).

Also, most motorbikes can do 0-60 in under 5 seconds, not especially useful in traffic but they can always accelerate out of closing gaps faster than a cyclist- especially since they're never tired, and rarely in the wrong gear. On the other hand, cyclists have far better low-speed maneuverability, smaller vehicles, tighter turning circles, better all-round visibility, and better escape options.

So, I'd say disregard the motorbike stuff, pretty much, there are similarities but I've had to basically relearn how to filter on the pushbike, if I was to filter like I do on the motorbike I'd probably end up hurt in extremely short order.

As for going by on the left or the right, neither is safe or dangerous, neither is wrong or right, they're just 2 maneouvres you can use when the circumstances are right.

Sewinman wrote:

I have noticed that since they opened the bus lanes to motorbikes they have begun filtering/over taking at breakneck speeds in the bus lane. I think this pretty dangerous as the bus lanes often have pot holes that cyclists swerve to avoid. Probably a matter of time before a motorcyclist hits a swerving cyclist IMHO.

In the studies done to date, the incidence of ptw (powered 2 wheelers) and cycle crashes has been almost zero- in the birmingham study there were none whatsoever, the original london one showed a decrease in cyclist injuries, because of the elimination of filtering crashes (2 vehicles, one gap). TBH if you find yourself regularily swerving to avoid potholes, you should be setting yourself up better in the first place, last minute swerves will put you in the way of another road user sooner or later.

Rich158

After all this, and extollling the virtues of filtering on the right, I did just that on the way home last night, as I normally do, and got hung out to dry by a bus. A combination of heavier traffic than usual and the bus letting a whole line of traffiic turn right in front of him, coonspired to leave me sittiing in the middle of the road going no where. Arsehole bs driver then proceeds to edge right to block my path and force me into the oncoming traffic, before pulling into a bus stop 50 yards down the road :evil:

I guess it really is dependant upon traffiic, road conditions etc as to where it is safe to filter, so it really is just a matter of judgement given the rooad conditions, level of traffiic etc

don_don

I came to one of the junctions on my commute this morning, which usually has no more than 3-4 cars waiting.

For some reason, today there were at least 20, backed up about 200m down the road. It was clear in the other direction, so I pulled out to the right and sailed all the way to the front of the queue, just as the lights turned green.

Wheeeeeeee!

DonDaddyD

Where the hell were all these opinions when PJR45 was calling me a dick for filtering on the left and having a pedstrian unexpectedly step out infront of me on the right from the front of lorry in stationary traffic, with me not being able to stop in time. I still maintain that the single lane traffic on that road renders it unsafe to filter on the right.

My view on the issues of filtering on the left or right is this:

The probablity of being left or right hooked is the same. IMO there is no definitive 'safer side' to filter down. Getting left or right hooked is dependant on whether the driver indicates in good time and checks his blind spot before moving.

I filter on the side I feel safest. This is determined by but not limited to: What side has the most space? Are there any vehicles parked on either side? How will this affect traffic? Pedestrians? What vehicles are ahead on my side and oncoming i.e. HGV, Bus? I assess what could become a hazzard make a decision and plot my course.

I also filter in waves. I plot a course filter, tuck back in. Plot my course filter and then tuck back in until the road opens up again. I never endlessly filter too many variables and unexpected circumstances to account for.

My first and last rule of filtering, I filter slowly, but not so slow that if the car starts to move and you need to move back insider you end up underneath it because you weren't going fast enough. - I do what I do to keep safe.

(I wonder who will be the first to disagree with everything I've just said?)

A - W

Without continuing the discussion to pick sides I'd recommend doing what is best for you in your situation.

DiggingDeeper

DonDaddyD wrote:

with me not being able to stop in time

Isn't this the issue here.

I don't know what went on in your previous argument but whatever side you filter on you have to expect someone to step out. Peds in traffic are lethal as we all know.

Who cares what side you do it on - your ability to stop is what is critical here.

DonDaddyD

DiggingDeeper wrote:

DonDaddyD wrote:

with me not being able to stop in time

Isn't this the issue here.

I don't know what went on in your previous argument but whatever side you filter on you have to expect someone to step out. Peds in traffic are lethal as we all know.

Who cares what side you do it on - your ability to stop is what is critical here.

Oh my god no, not again!

It's impossible to expect a person on a bike to be able to stop in every single instance. If that were the case there would be no such thing as a left or right hook, getting doored or general accidents/crashes :roll: People wouldn't get knocked down when they run out into the road and there wouldn't be any need for the green cross code.

If a guy steps out into traffic from infront of a vehicle that obscures his visibility to oncoming traffic then they have to shoulder some responsiblity. This is why I don't cross the road infront on a large vehicle that obscures my visibilty. I wouldn't even do that when on my bike. I take responsiblity for my own safety.

My situation:

I was coasting along slowly, there were lights ahead. It was raining heavily so I was already braking gently. The guy came out instantly and from nowhere, from infront of a lorry (there was no way to see him) I pressed hard on the brakes, it was too late, I skidded, I hit him. Luckily I was going slow enough not to knock him over or fall off my bike. Had I been going any slower I wouldn't have been able to ride the bike safely as I'd have struggled to keep it upright, so I don't think this was down to my ability to stop.

roger_merriman

one of the problems with thin tires is how little they grip in the wet, my old MTB with marthon tires and good old pre V brakes is a sure footed stoper, the modern MTB is as one would expect though thin tall walled mud tires are 'intresting' on hard surfaces.

prawny

DDD I wouldn't worry about it there's always someone on here who will disagree with anything you say. I remeber reading a thread on here ages ago about someone who hit someone that had just walked into the road.
99% of people agreed with him, but there were a couple of people that were saying it was his fault and you should always be able to stop.
To do that you'd have to ride/drive/walk everywhere at glacial pace just in case (ha that rhymes!). I've bumped into people walking before, maybe I should always walk slower?

*sit's back waits for inevitable abuse from the hardline minority*

always_tyred

prawny wrote:

DDD I wouldn't worry about it there's always someone on here who will disagree with anything you say.

No there isn't.

DonDaddyD

prawny wrote:

DDD I wouldn't worry about it there's always someone on here who will disagree with anything you say. I remeber reading a thread on here ages ago about someone who hit someone that had just walked into the road.
99% of people agreed with him, but there were a couple of people that were saying it was his fault and you should always be able to stop.
To do that you'd have to ride/drive/walk everywhere at glacial pace just in case (ha that rhymes!). I've bumped into people walking before, maybe I should always walk slower?

*sit's back waits for inevitable abuse from the hardline minority*

+1

Always Tyred wrote:

No there isn't.

+2

prawny

Always Tyred wrote:

prawny wrote:

DDD I wouldn't worry about it there's always someone on here who will disagree with anything you say.

No there isn't.

Touche

_Brun_

DonDaddyD wrote:

Oh my god no, not again!

You brought it up again for Christ's sake :roll:

The whole point was that you explicity said the only reason you were going slowy was the weather, and if it hadn't been raining you'd have been going faster (fast enough to "go straight through him" as I recall). The fact that you don't get why you shouldn't filter at speed past things you can't see beyond is utterly perplexing. This applies to the inside more than anywhere, because it's really bloody obvious that a pedestrian is quite likely to appear from nowhere. Regardless of whether it's your fault or not, try consider the implications of hitting a pensioner or pushchair at 10mph.

In order to bring this back on topic, I take whichever option looks clearest.

DonDaddyD

_Brun_ wrote:

You brought it up again for Christ's sake :roll:

Why must you use the Lords name in vain?

When online are we not our own architects of flaming - given that its all opinion and what not?

The whole point was that you explicity said the only reason you were going slowy was the weather, and if it hadn't been raining you'd have been going faster (fast enough to "go straight through him" as I recall).

This is true.

The fact that you don't get why you shouldn't filter at speed past things you can't see beyond is utterly perplexing.

What you seem unable to grasp is the fact that I could see past the lorry, I couldn't see through it (I wish I was Superman). I don't attempt to cross the road from infront of things oncoming traffic can't see through... that doesn't seem logical, its why people tend to cross roads from behind buses to give oncoming traffic of seeing them and their intentions.

This applies to the inside more than anywhere, because it's really bloody obvious that a pedestrian is quite likely to appear from nowhere.

Not from the right and from infront of a lorry.

Regardless of whether it's your fault or not, try consider the implications of hitting a pensioner or pushchair at 10mph.

What, I should walk then? Risk my life and filter on the right? Wait in traffic when its not illegal to filter? What? How about the Pedestrian crossing the road where its safe to do so. I cannot anticipate every possible eventuality.

Besides, any Mother who pushes her push chair into oncoming traffic without looking first or being in a situation where she can see the traffic is going to get a raised eyebrow from me.

In order to bring this back on topic, I take whichever option looks clearest.

Which I do to. Only I don't have an actual spider sense and am not a clairvoyant. The route I took appeared the clearest which is always the risk when filtering.

_Brun_

Look, nowhere did I suggest you should be walking, or cycling at walking pace, or filtering down the right where it's 'life threatening'. My point is you shouldn't ever be going faster than you were in the rain because these incidents/accidents will invariably happen in cities with stationary traffic and lots of pedestrians.

It's unfortunate you knocked someone over, I'm sure next time they will pay more attention. Sooner or later there will be another person who doesn't however, and being hit by 15 stone of cyclist going twice as fast is a rather harsh punishment for a minor lapse of concentration. Chances are you could do yourself a fair bit of damage too, but I'm sure you'll be comforted by the reassurance that it wasn't your fault.