Watts required to race 4th cat?
Comments
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softlad wrote:Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:What on earth makes you think that having a power meter on your bike suddenly transforms you into another dimension?
I never said that it did, Alex. I was simply agreeing that theoretical power outputs are of little use when you are hanging off the back of a road race bunch.
"slow down fellas, we're all pushing out far too many watts.." - its not gonna happen like that, is it..?
I use to use an HRM for training and found it very useful, setting upper & lower limits and the like. But I never used one in a race, because it would probably have gone off the scale - that's the point I'm trying to make - in a race the only thing that matters is how fast the rest of the field is going...
And who exactly was suggesting it be used that way? Or do you like arguing with empty rooms?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:And who exactly was suggesting it be used that way? Or do you like arguing with empty rooms?
my point - in case you missed it the first time - was that a power meter (or similar) cannot tell you if you are ready to race or not, and an over-reliance on technology will not help you in a race situation, when the only thing that matters is what is left in your legs and how much suffering you can endure...0 -
and my point was - who implied that it in the first place? All races will have a ballpark speed and average power and if you're nowhere near them then you probably won't last long. No-one is claiming any more than that.
The OP is measuring power on a cycleops indoor bike. Using that in the race might not be his best bet.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:The OP is measuring power on a cycleops indoor bike. Using that in the race might not be his best bet.
no-one said it would be. But the OP did originally ask if a certain power output would be up to racing - to which me and a few others said that watts (average or otherwise) did not really mean much in the real world, which I think is a fair answer and not intended to be critical in any way of the OP.
So, have you done much racing..?0 -
Nope. Does that matter?
Have you done much riding with a powermeter?Le Blaireau (1)0 -
softlad wrote:DaveyL wrote:The OP is measuring power on a cycleops indoor bike. Using that in the race might not be his best bet.
no-one said it would be. But the OP did originally ask if a certain power output would be up to racing - to which me and a few others said that watts (average or otherwise) did not really mean much in the real world, which I think is a fair answer and not intended to be critical in any way of the OP.
So, have you done much racing..?
I can understand your scepticism with the power meter. but just imagine you are in a race and are feeling ok in the leading bunch with a couple of Km's to go. You want to make a break but you are not sure how hard you can push...One glance at the power meter and you will know that you can turn the wick up a bit without burning your self out because you know that you are working below your threshold.
Using perceived exertion or HR you may push to hard too soon and have nothing left for the finish.
Power meters provide a "measurement" of how hard you are working that cannot currently be accurately determined by any other method
I will give you some credit though.....the wattage pushed in training can no way determine the outcome of a race and I am sure that someone has said that earlier as there are too many other variables; but, on the other hand training using wattages can show you where you are improving or need to improve and help you pinpoint your training accordingly.17 Stone down to 12.5 now raring to get back on the bike!0 -
fuzzynavel wrote:I can understand your scepticism with the power meter
fuzzy - I agree with pretty much all you have said - but just to be clear, I am not 'sceptical' of power meters. I'm sure they do exactly what they are supposed to do.
The only thing I am sceptical of is using a read out from a power meter to decide whether someone is capable of riding a cat 4 event (or any other) because there are so many other variables that a power meter (or any other scientific device) cannot predict which will make a difference on the day.
Cougie summed it up well in his post.0 -
Perhaps you can understand why one-liners such as "completely agree. throw the power meter away and ride in the real world..." may come across as you being a tad skeptical...Le Blaireau (1)0
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in the context of the original question, I think my sentiments were pretty reasonable, because racing usually takes place in the real world - not on a training rig in someone's garage.
If it had been a less-specific question about the value of power meters in general, my answer may well have been different...or I may not have answered at all...0 -
softlad wrote:in the context of the original question, I think my sentiments were pretty reasonable, because racing usually takes place in the real world - not on a training rig in someone's garage.
If it had been a less-specific question about the value of power meters in general, my answer may well have been different...or I may not have answered at all...
For someone who has never raced do you not think that using the power meter info that you have might at least give that person a little insight into just what their potential could be if they were to compete. It seems at least an objective means of assessment for someone who has never done any racing so to ignore the fact that he has the data there seems silly to me.
I don't think the OP actually ever suggested that just because he can sustain x amount of watts that this means he has nothing else to learn. He just wanted to know if he has the basic fitness to at least get in there and learn the rest from experience.
I think the answer is that if the OP has a real FTP of 295 watts and 85kg then with a 3.47w/kg then yes he has potential.0 -
Cougie summed it up better than I did - that's all there is to say really.0
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For a serious cyclist then power training if used properly will be useful. I have a power meter on my turbo too and i really doubt the accuracy of it.
How can we tell if its calibrated well ? We cant. The simplest and easiest way is to try a club run with the racing boys. If you can cut it there then you should be able to hold your own in a race. Pretty pointless talking about watts. Most races will be a series of flat out attacks followed by longer steady rides in the bunch. If you cant cope with the attacks - then you wont be in the bunch - simple as that.0 -
Do you not think having an understanding the power demands of such a race can also help you? Attacks are power data too.cougie wrote:For a serious cyclist then power training if used properly will be useful. I have a power meter on my turbo too and i really doubt the accuracy of it.
How can we tell if its calibrated well ? We cant. The simplest and easiest way is to try a club run with the racing boys. If you can cut it there then you should be able to hold your own in a race. Pretty pointless talking about watts. Most races will be a series of flat out attacks followed by longer steady rides in the bunch. If you cant cope with the attacks - then you wont be in the bunch - simple as that.
The information gleaned from a power meter file will help you better understand where and why you had difficulty, and help you make informed decisions about training to address those weaknesses.
for example, you might think it's the attacks that are doing you in, the inability to surge hard enough. Prima facie, that makes sense since it might have been an attack where you cracked. So you go out and train your ability to surge hard. But you still get dropped next time. How come? Because you probably haven't addressed the primary underlying physiological deficiency and focussed on the wrong thing.
By understanding the true physiological demands of such a race, one can make sensible and informed decisions about the training that will best prepare you.
And I see lots of guys that can hang with the fast training bunch but are the first out the back door once you pin a number on their back.0 -
Due to my/my wife's shift working and childcare I rarely get out on a group ride or club run so I do most of my training alone.
I got a Power Meter just before christmas and I have to say my cycling has improved dramatically. I put this down to the ability to accurately target different zones and also for pacing.
I'm seeing big big gains probably due to the fact I'm a noob (Only been riding 18 months, was a very unfit 18 stone, now 14'10 and dropping) but I'm also a stickler for efficiency, due to my precious time on the bike I want it to be as effective as possible.
I intend to try my first race in April, I'm miles of 3.47 w/kg, miles, yet I don't care, I'm going to turn up and see how I get on, use it as a very hard training ride if I get shelled by the first mile.
I sometimes worry that I don't have the fitness / power output to start but then again, if everyone thought that, then no-one would get in to racing. So sod it! I'm in.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:I sometimes worry that I don't have the fitness / power output to start but then again, if everyone thought that, then no-one would get in to racing. So sod it! I'm in.
Go for it.
Nobody ever won a race by not starting.0 -
NapoleonD wrote:Due to my/my wife's shift working and childcare I rarely get out on a group ride or club run so I do most of my training alone.
I got a Power Meter just before christmas and I have to say my cycling has improved dramatically. I put this down to the ability to accurately target different zones and also for pacing.
I'm seeing big big gains probably due to the fact I'm a noob (Only been riding 18 months, was a very unfit 18 stone, now 14'10 and dropping) but I'm also a stickler for efficiency, due to my precious time on the bike I want it to be as effective as possible.
I intend to try my first race in April, I'm miles of 3.47 w/kg, miles, yet I don't care, I'm going to turn up and see how I get on, use it as a very hard training ride if I get shelled by the first mile.
I sometimes worry that I don't have the fitness / power output to start but then again, if everyone thought that, then no-one would get in to racing. So sod it! I'm in.
As per above go for it. Just finishing Hillingdon winter series and its the best fun I've had on a bike for a long time. If possible I would suggest doing a series of races on same course as this will allow getting familiar with layout and fellow riders.
I'd also advise posting in race section once race near to get some hints and tips on general racing and specific course you will be doing. I did that and helped quite a bit.
Also as per above ignore power meter during race. But one thing may be worth using it for once a week during March would be to do some 1 min intervals, say 8 - 12 1 min on, 1 min rest. Use the powermeter to set a benchmark, target as hard as possible while keeping power steady, cadence above 90rpm, right from second 1 to second 60 and after 3rd one aim to do all the rest at that same level. Stop if you fall more than 10% under interval 3 power. This will help with the short but intense efforts that will be needed in most every race.
Also if not already used to riding with others get some group riding practice beforehand. Biggest single success factor at first is probably the ability to ride comfortably in a bunch.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
I've also just used the last 2 Hillingdon Winter Series races to test out typical power output, having been using the Powertap to train for the past 4 months. I was using the races to get used to racing again, and planned nothing more than to sit in near the back of the bunch, get a good 1hr+ workout and check out the power readings. The races were the E123, so probably a little faster than the 4ths.
1st race - a group of about 9 of us got dropped about half way through the race, in very windy conditions. I ended up spending a fair bit of time on the front of the second group, so power went up but overall we weren't going that fast due to the wind.
Av power - 302W for 75mins
Av speed - 22.9mph
2nd race - stayed near back of bunch the whole way
Av power - 273W for 73mins
Av speed - 25mph
Now someone I know stayed in the top 1/3 of the bunch the whole race and his SRM recorded an average of 240W. Just goes to show that many things influence power output during the race - at the back you are subject to surges in pace much more, and have to expend more effort. You also get caught up in everything happening - braking, coasting round corners, mechanicals, etc then have to accelerate, using more power.
I think power is especially useful for training, can by useful during a race if you're good enough at strategy and get into a breakaway, for instance.
So to answer the original poster's question, I think you're power output is probably a good base from which to begin racing - assuming that the turbo is giving you an accurate reading, of course
But as others have noted, race experience, tactics, nerve, etc count for so much more...
Oh, and you're planned weight loss seems quite extreme to me - 85kg to 73kg in 5 months? Almost 15% of your body weight? Good luck!0 -
Just going back a few pages - did someone say 25-28mph for a cat4 race ? My experience is that is a bit optimistic - 24/25 for a flat circuit race would be nearer the mark.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Agreed - Elites "only" put out 27-28 mph Avg's in flat closed-circuit races - not sure there's too many cat4 guys doing that - (well, there's usually one or two cat 3/4's and a sprinkling of cat 1/2's).0
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By coincidence a relevant blog entry here from someone who knows a bit about both road racing and power use.
http://colinsbikingbits.blogspot.com/2009/02/progress-or-otherwise.htmlMartin S. Newbury RC0 -
Mettan wrote:Agreed - Elites "only" put out 27-28 mph Avg's in flat closed-circuit races - not sure there's too many cat4 guys doing that - (well, there's usually one or two cat 3/4's and a sprinkling of cat 1/2's).
Agreed 4 cat Numbers I have:
Thruxton: 55 min race, fastest average 39.2 kph, usually 38.x kph.
Hillingdon winter series Jan to now 45 min race range 37.5 to 38.5 kph with exception of the day it snowed when did a slightly safer 36.Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:
Do you not think having an understanding the power demands of such a race can also help you? Attacks are power data too.cougie wrote:For a serious cyclist then power training if used properly will be useful. I have a power meter on my turbo too and i really doubt the accuracy of it.
How can we tell if its calibrated well ? We cant. The simplest and easiest way is to try a club run with the racing boys. If you can cut it there then you should be able to hold your own in a race. Pretty pointless talking about watts. Most races will be a series of flat out attacks followed by longer steady rides in the bunch. If you cant cope with the attacks - then you wont be in the bunch - simple as that.
The information gleaned from a power meter file will help you better understand where and why you had difficulty, and help you make informed decisions about training to address those weaknesses.
for example, you might think it's the attacks that are doing you in, the inability to surge hard enough. Prima facie, that makes sense since it might have been an attack where you cracked. So you go out and train your ability to surge hard. But you still get dropped next time. How come? Because you probably haven't addressed the primary underlying physiological deficiency and focussed on the wrong thing.
By understanding the true physiological demands of such a race, one can make sensible and informed decisions about the training that will best prepare you.
And I see lots of guys that can hang with the fast training bunch but are the first out the back door once you pin a number on their back.
Its all good data - but how can you relate that to a blokes turbo giving out wattage ? If its even 10% out - then the info is useless. And what wattage are you going to use - a bloke following wheels will have an easier ride than one doing all the attacking.
Yeah - a racing cyclist with a powermeter on his bike - yes thats quite useful information. But I just cant see how it translates across to a turbo with any accuracy at all.0 -
Of course it needs all the caveats of calibration. Then it gets back to the factors highlighted in one of my first posts on this thread.cougie wrote:Its all good data - but how can you relate that to a blokes turbo giving out wattage ? If its even 10% out - then the info is useless. And what wattage are you going to use - a bloke following wheels will have an easier ride than one doing all the attacking.
Yeah - a racing cyclist with a powermeter on his bike - yes thats quite useful information. But I just cant see how it translates across to a turbo with any accuracy at all.
As for what wattage to use when racing (in the sense that it is highly variable depending on where you are placed relative to other riders, what's happening in the race etc), then it helps to have an understanding of metrics that make sense of the variability of power from a physiological demand perpective.
Average power is fairly unhelpful in that regard, but something like Normalised Power is an excellent means by which to do this:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... score.aspx
It enables us to compare/contrast the physiological demands of significantly different types of rides, from all out solo iso-power efforts to highly variable efforts such as a hard crit race.
Put it this way, it is very unlikely that your NP from a hard 1-hour crit will be >105% of your best 1-hour TT power. So from the POV of knowing your ability to generate long interval power, on a e.g. (calibrated) turbo, this is still an excellent guide to your physiological capacity to race at certain levels. Again, skill, race nouse etc are other issues.
But as always, the only way to know whether you can cut it is to race.0 -
Though I've only used power measuring on my turbo I'm definitely a fan of scientific training, but it does seem to me that there is a over anylising of peoples 'stats' on cycling forums. You'd think cycling was all about your power output or heart rate. When I started, if you wanted to race, you raced and you were either OK at it or you weren't.
There really is only one way to find out and it probably wont kill you, so go race if that's what you want to do and then we'll all know.0 -
Yes - Matty - you need to race this season and report back your findings please.0
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As the OP, i value the comment from all quarters here.
This is the bike i've been using (changed the pedals to Ultegra and the saddle to San Marco)
http://www.rowhire.co.uk/exercise-bike-hire/Keiser-M3/
I hope the watts are 'real'...!!!
At 22 years old ran 1:56 for the 800 so i think i've got a reasonably good engine when it's trained up. I'm 35 now and after breaking my ankle and ending my running days at 23 i'm now getting back into a formal treaining regime which i enjoy. I hope that if i can get my engine back to reasonably close to what it was then i could give a reasonable account on myself.
I might even start a blog to that effect!!!0 -
Back when I used to race (like 15 years ago
) it was the changes of pace that used to kill me in road races, not lack of speed/power. I could TT OK (57:56 for a 25 and 2:02:00 for a 50, on a road bike with clip on bars) but I'd either get dropped on hills or not recover enough between them in road races and end up off the back. I think the main reason was because I never interval trained (and I'm not built to go uphill ) so don't assume just having a certain power output is enough. 0 -
Given the spec of the bike and your history I would guess the watts will be in the right area (I've got a high end exercise bike, Lifecyle, and watts on that match well with what I get from power meter on my road bike).
Anyway best way to find out is try a race or two. Regardless of how it turns out you will have some experience to base training on and judge progress by.
Entering races is quite easy: calendar here.
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/site/BC/eve/eventsfuture.asp
(Just in case don't know already) You'll need a licence. Some races you can turn up and get a day licence. If take it up more seriously you'll need to get a racing licence from BCF which (I think) means joining a club. Once got this placing in race earns points and points move you up the racing categories. 10 points is first challenge to get from lowly 4 cat to not quite so lowly 3rd (which is bit of a step change as this means may be in same race as all the other categories including elite). Points based on placing, down to 10th place so with a few races its not too difficult to accumulate the points needed.
Good luck and look forward to the blog..Martin S. Newbury RC0 -
nferrar wrote:Back when I used to race (like 15 years ago ) it was the changes of pace that used to kill me in road races, not lack of speed/power. I could TT OK (57:56 for a 25 and 2:02:00 for a 50, on a road bike with clip on bars) but I'd either get dropped on hills or not recover enough between them in road races and end up off the back. I think the main reason was because I never interval trained (and I'm not built to go uphill ) so don't assume just having a certain power output is enough.
A power profile would let you know what your true strengths and weaknesses are It's not only about FTP nor is at all about power either however for what you have described knowing your true strengths and weaknesses could probably have helped. 0 -
Not necessary (although perhaps a very good idea) - you can join BC as a "Private Member"bahzob wrote:which (I think) means joining a club0
