Watts required to race 4th cat?

mattybeck

Hi,

Recently got myself an indoor cycleops style bike which measures watts. As someone who has previoulsy only ridden for only for recreation i would like ideally to try some racing.

Right now i can do 295 watts for an hour - Are those decent watts for a 4th cat race. I'm also a bit heavy being 85 kg's and 175 cm. Hope to get down to 73 by July.

Any advice, comment appreciated.

bahzob

Speaking as someone who has been using powermeter for couple of years and just started road racing:

Bad news: For distances/courses 4th cats use there is precious little relationship between watts/hour and results. To give an example:
24th Jan Hillingdon 204W average result 7th.
31st Jan Hillingdon 280W average result unplaced.

Riding skills, nowce, tactics and just plain luck will have a bigger impact on results than watts per hour (or FTP). Main power predictor will probably be how much power you can keep up for last 30s or so (since most races end up as a sprint). Even here though riding skills even more important.

Good news: Watts per hour has some use in terms of whether you will be able to keep up with bunch. 295W per hour should be more than enough. (Losing weight will help but not such a big deal as most courses dont have major climbs)

Overall would say racing most fun I have had on a bike in a while. You look good enough to give it a go so I would say try it. The sooner you start the sooner you will start to learn the all important skills/knowledge that you need.

DaveyL

Just a thought - would a comparison of your Watts vs average speed of the race give you and indication as to how "smart" you were in the race in terms of sheltering in the pack?

bahzob

DaveyL wrote:

Just a thought - would a comparison of your Watts vs average speed of the race give you and indication as to how "smart" you were in the race in terms of sheltering in the pack?

Think this was for me? If so then yes but to be honest no need for a powermeter to work this out.
Jan 24th: I felt like crap due to overeating Tunnocks the day before (celebrating Burns night early..it does make sense honest). So sheltered in bunch for most of race, tried a break midway but no legs so just concentrated on getting a good finish.
Jan 31st Cunning plan with some others to go hard from gun. Backfired when found myself at back on start grid. So worked like b****y to get to front and knackered when got there. Plan aborted and got chopped up on final lap so no chance of a place.

(So back to OP benefit of getting race experience, most of what you need is learned by experience once you have the basic fitness to be able to keep up with the bunch)

shockedsoshocked

Don't worry about watts etc for racing, the most important thing is experience. You can be the strongest rider in the world but if you don't know to ride a bike you'll get no where. Learn how to ride in wind and shelter appropriately, ride in a tight bunch and hold a wheel. If you can get those you'll manage fine.

Anonymous

Well, I start racing in April and my FTP is only 240 Watts and I'm 93kg.

Not bothered if I get dropped, just going for fun

Alex_Simmons/RST

mattybeck wrote:

Hi,

Recently got myself an indoor cycleops style bike which measures watts. As someone who has previoulsy only ridden for only for recreation i would like ideally to try some racing.

Right now i can do 295 watts for an hour - Are those decent watts for a 4th cat race. I'm also a bit heavy being 85 kg's and 175 cm. Hope to get down to 73 by July.

Any advice, comment appreciated.

You 1-hr maximal power to weight ratio is a pretty fair indicator of performance potential.

As has been said already, the demands of a Cat 4 race (or any category) can be highly variable in average power terms. It makes much more sense to consider the physiological demands in terms of Normalised Power, which takes into account the highly variable nature of power output in such races:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/ ... score.aspx

As a rule of thumb, if your 1-hr power to weight ratio is 3 - 3.6W/kg, then you should be able to hang with a Cat 4 race. If you can't, then it's not your 1-hr power that's holding you back. Obviously it depends a bit on the terrain and type of race. If the race has sizeable hills, and you're at the lower end of the power to weight ratio, then you'll struggle. But if you are 3.5W/kg and are still getting dropped, then it's probably other things like skills and race nouse.

Sometimes there are very hard Cat 4 races though, as often they contain riders making their way up through the categories and are fitter than typical, or who are very fit but don't race all that often and don't upgrade as a result.

Alex_Simmons/RST

DaveyL wrote:

Just a thought - would a comparison of your Watts vs average speed of the race give you and indication as to how "smart" you were in the race in terms of sheltering in the pack?

Not really. Terrain, wind and how fast the pack goes (if you are sitting in) will affect that.

If I had a strategy of conserving resources, I'd look at proportion of time spent not pedalling or at recovery level power.

But more importantly, I'd be interested in the actual performance when it counts. Could I put the smack down at the moment in the race that mattered? Did I win (or at least give myself an opportunity of winning)?

inseine

Whether you do OK or not will depend on whether you can stay with the pace for those (quite brief) periods when the pace goes up or you hit a hill and, ultimately in most 4th cat races, if you can sprint. Most 4th cat races end up in a gallop for the majority of the pack, even if one or two have got away, and sprinting is as much about skill as it is about power at these levels.
The main thing is to enjoy it and not expect too much of yourself from the off.

mattybeck

Thanks for the advice all. Really motivated now to improve my watts per kilo and bike handling skills.

Gav888

For someone that doesnt have a way of measuring watt's, purely out of interest, what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

Im a complete novice, but an idea of what a Cat 4 racer is capable of would be nice as one day in a far far away galaxy I would like to race. :?

SteveR_100Milers

Gav888 wrote:

For someone that doesnt have a way of measuring watt's, purely out of interest, what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

Im a complete novice, but an idea of what a Cat 4 racer is capable of would be nice as one day in a far far away galaxy I would like to race. :?

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

fuzzynavel

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Gav888 wrote:

For someone that doesnt have a way of measuring watt's, purely out of interest, what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

Im a complete novice, but an idea of what a Cat 4 racer is capable of would be nice as one day in a far far away galaxy I would like to race. :?

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

I guess 25-28 mph would only be in a group who are chainganging.....I would doubt that most Cat 4's will be able to do sub 1 hour 25's by themselves.
Maybe they can and I'm just not as good as I like to think!

Bronzie

Gav888 wrote:

what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

I'd say 23-25mph average. Most entry level races are around 30 miles or just over an hour chewing bar tape in laymans terms .

padonbike

Right now i can do 295 watts for an hour - Are those decent watts for a 4th cat race. I'm also a bit heavy being 85 kg's and 175 cm. Hope to get down to 73 by July.

if you are good enough to be thinking about Watts, you are too good to be racing 4th Cat. Suggest you get over to Qatar pretty sharpish.
:?

jibberjim

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

If I had a strategy of conserving resources, I'd look at proportion of time spent not pedalling or at recovery level power.

Not pedalling? given the need to react to changes in speed, isn't it better to soft pedal the whole time and never actually stop, as that just makest the pick up harder?

cougie

I'd think you'd be better off getting out on the club runs with the racing boys rather than relying upon power meters. Improve your skills and give you a much better idea/

If you can sit on a wheel - then its a lot less energy required. The race will have many attacks that need a lot of power, and then you can relax a bit if you can find a wheel.

SteveR_100Milers

fuzzynavel wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Gav888 wrote:

For someone that doesnt have a way of measuring watt's, purely out of interest, what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

Im a complete novice, but an idea of what a Cat 4 racer is capable of would be nice as one day in a far far away galaxy I would like to race. :?

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

I guess 25-28 mph would only be in a group who are chainganging.....I would doubt that most Cat 4's will be able to do sub 1 hour 25's by themselves.
Maybe they can and I'm just not as good as I like to think!


See here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Huggy wrote:

was in Cat 3/4 group - started off going about 30mph, then up the rise mid 20s. After that nasty warm up, about 26 - 30, there were constant breaks going out so lots of chasing. I got dropped and started working with some other dropees, doing about 25, not catching the peloton.

However, they started way too fast and in the end the average was probably about 25, although everything split up and went to pieces, elites drafting cat 4s and no real bunch in the final laps. I think the best thing to do is get a position at the front from the start and try and stay there for the first 30 mins, if you tag on the back you're very likely to get dropped. The hill thing there is merciless after a few laps also.

terongi

inseine wrote:

Most 4th cat races end up in a gallop for the majority of the pack, even if one or two have got away, and sprinting is as much about skill as it is about power at these levels.

Bunch sprinting in a group of unpredictable rookies (myself included) sounds like a recipe for broken bones and road rash.

Isn't it wiser to try and escape on or before the last lap? (probably easier said than done)

cougie

Yup !!

eh

Well I could a few years ago happily finish any 3/4 race I wanted in the top 20 (my sprint is RUBBISH hence not many top 10s) and my best 25TT was a bit under 1.02, with the same bike & kit for each only difference being addition of clip on tri-bars for the TT.

Don't put too much emphasis on Watts and HR at the detriment of decent handling skills and race know how.

fuzzynavel

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

I guess 25-28 mph would only be in a group who are chainganging.....I would doubt that most Cat 4's will be able to do sub 1 hour 25's by themselves.
Maybe they can and I'm just not as good as I like to think!


See here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Huggy wrote:

was in Cat 3/4 group - started off going about 30mph, then up the rise mid 20s. After that nasty warm up, about 26 - 30, there were constant breaks going out so lots of chasing. I got dropped and started working with some other dropees, doing about 25, not catching the peloton.

However, they started way too fast and in the end the average was probably about 25, although everything split up and went to pieces, elites drafting cat 4s and no real bunch in the final laps. I think the best thing to do is get a position at the front from the start and try and stay there for the first 30 mins, if you tag on the back you're very likely to get dropped. The hill thing there is merciless after a few laps also.

I can see the point you are trying to make....If you go on to the second page or read the british cycling account of the day they both say that it was pretty windy....This should possibly even out over the entire lap though.

SteveR_100Milers

fuzzynavel wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

fuzzynavel wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

I guess 25-28 mph would only be in a group who are chainganging.....I would doubt that most Cat 4's will be able to do sub 1 hour 25's by themselves.
Maybe they can and I'm just not as good as I like to think!


See here:

http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... sc&start=0

Huggy wrote:

was in Cat 3/4 group - started off going about 30mph, then up the rise mid 20s. After that nasty warm up, about 26 - 30, there were constant breaks going out so lots of chasing. I got dropped and started working with some other dropees, doing about 25, not catching the peloton.

However, they started way too fast and in the end the average was probably about 25, although everything split up and went to pieces, elites drafting cat 4s and no real bunch in the final laps. I think the best thing to do is get a position at the front from the start and try and stay there for the first 30 mins, if you tag on the back you're very likely to get dropped. The hill thing there is merciless after a few laps also.

I can see the point you are trying to make....If you go on to the second page or read the british cycling account of the day they both say that it was pretty windy....This should possibly even out over the entire lap though.

No, that was the following week. I was careful not to confuse the two races, as last Saturdays was indeed very windy. The previous week wasnt apparently. I'm doing it msyelf a week on Saturday so I'll be able to confirm it first hand.

Gav888

fuzzynavel wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Gav888 wrote:

For someone that doesnt have a way of measuring watt's, purely out of interest, what speeds on the flat are achieved and how long does a Cat 4 race last?

Im a complete novice, but an idea of what a Cat 4 racer is capable of would be nice as one day in a far far away galaxy I would like to race. :?

Speed wise assumning a flat course I'd expect it to be 25-28 mph from the gun for a race lasting about an hour or thereabouts. There will be many times when your speed will reach mid 30's as you try to hold a wheel / close a gap / sprint for the finish. Unless you're in a break on your own, then its nothing like a steady effort; just a series of oxygen debt hell intervals...

I guess 25-28 mph would only be in a group who are chainganging.....I would doubt that most Cat 4's will be able to do sub 1 hour 25's by themselves.
Maybe they can and I'm just not as good as I like to think!

OMG that is fast, well for me anyway.... My absolute max in the highest gear is 24 mph for about 15 seconds, on the flats at a normal pace im 15 mph!!!

fuzzynavel

Gav888 wrote:

OMG that is fast, well for me anyway.... My absolute max in the highest gear is 24 mph for about 15 seconds, on the flats at a normal pace im 15 mph!!!

Try pedalling slightly faster in an easier gear you may last a little longer. Technically you should be putting out the same power but the effects on your legs will be different.

softlad

cougie wrote:

I'd think you'd be better off getting out on the club runs with the racing boys rather than relying upon power meters. Improve your skills and give you a much better idea/

If you can sit on a wheel - then its a lot less energy required. The race will have many attacks that need a lot of power, and then you can relax a bit if you can find a wheel.

completely agree. throw the power meter away and ride in the real world...

DaveyL

The original poster doesn't have a power meter. He has an indoor stattionary bike which measures power. Anyway, I can't find any posts on this thread which recommend the OP to "rely" on a power meter, or even anything close to rely.

You better tell those Garmin-Slipstream boys, and many others, that they need to throw their power meters away and get with "the real world"

fuzzynavel

softlad wrote:

cougie wrote:

I'd think you'd be better off getting out on the club runs with the racing boys rather than relying upon power meters. Improve your skills and give you a much better idea/

If you can sit on a wheel - then its a lot less energy required. The race will have many attacks that need a lot of power, and then you can relax a bit if you can find a wheel.

completely agree. throw the power meter away and ride in the real world...

Power meters have made a huge difference to the way that people train. The fact that you can test yourself over an hour to get your FTP and then set ranges of training intensity according to the FTP and get real time data is, I think, a great training aid.
I doubt professional cyclists would waste their time if there wasn't significant benefit

Alex_Simmons/RST

softlad wrote:

cougie wrote:

I'd think you'd be better off getting out on the club runs with the racing boys rather than relying upon power meters. Improve your skills and give you a much better idea/

If you can sit on a wheel - then its a lot less energy required. The race will have many attacks that need a lot of power, and then you can relax a bit if you can find a wheel.

completely agree. throw the power meter away and ride in the real world...

What on earth makes you think that having a power meter on your bike suddenly transforms you into another dimension?

It doesn't pedal the bike for you, just records and displays the effort in a most precise manner.

softlad

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

What on earth makes you think that having a power meter on your bike suddenly transforms you into another dimension?

I never said that it did, Alex. I was simply agreeing that theoretical power outputs are of little use when you are hanging off the back of a road race bunch.

"slow down fellas, we're all pushing out far too many watts.." - its not gonna happen like that, is it..?

I use to use an HRM for training and found it very useful, setting upper & lower limits and the like. But I never used one in a race, because it would probably have gone off the scale - that's the point I'm trying to make - in a race the only thing that matters is how fast the rest of the field is going...

a_n_t

softlad wrote:

in a race the only thing that matters is how fast the rest of the field is going...

never raced in my life but that makes perfect sense to me!

heart monitor.................check
power meter................. check
rest of the bunch...........erm, 2 mins up the road!!