Winter turbo sessions???

wheeler585

Hi all, winter training started 3 weeks ago for me, always unsure on how hard i should be pushing it on the turbo, for this time of year though. At the moment im doing 3 turbo sessions a week, each session lasting a hr and a half, 10 min warm up then keeping it going at 80-85% of my max for 1 hr and ten mins, with the occassional 10 sec sprint burst to stretch my legs. Also going out on the sat and sun, for 3 hrs at a time steady away.

Are there any other turbo sessions for this time of year anyone could share with me please?

And are these sessions to much for this time of year, and gunna make me stagnent for next seasons racing?

Any info would be appreciated!

crabstix

Can I recommend Smart Cycling: Successful Training and Racing for Riders of All Levels by Arnie Baker? This book features a 12-week programme for stationary training and it is pretty comprehensive. It would be a fiver (from amazon, though marketplace sellers are cheaper) or ten quid from a bookshop well spent.

wheeler585

Right i will be on it, and get on to amazon, thanks for the reccomendation!! Rob

Toks

wheeler585 wrote:

Hi all, winter training started 3 weeks ago for me, always unsure on how hard i should be pushing it on the turbo, for this time of year though. At the moment im doing 3 turbo sessions a week, each session lasting a hr and a half, 10 min warm up then keeping it going at 80-85% of my max for 1 hr and ten mins, with the occassional 10 sec sprint burst to stretch my legs. Also going out on the sat and sun, for 3 hrs at a time steady away.

Are there any other turbo sessions for this time of year anyone could share with me please?

And are these sessions to much for this time of year, and gunna make me stagnent for next seasons racing?

Any info would be appreciated!

I'm no coach but Its very difficult to recommend how much exactly one should do at this time of the year. What you're doing sound almost identical to what I'm doing. Now someone else might argue thet we're both over doing it and someone else might say that we're not. If you've got clear goals, are highly motivated, can ease off when feeling fatigued, can switch intensity or duration when you plateau, aren't unduly affected by work or stress, have good training history behind you already and most importantly enjoy what you're doing I reckon you'll be fine and should be very strong come the summer. In terms of sessions just keep building your engine till racing time. Lots of tempo/threshold stuff 2 x 20's / 3 x20's, 1-2hrs@85% of HRT

doyler78

The current issue of Cycling Weekly's Health & Fitness for Cyclists (Winter Edition) has 5 or 6 coaches who offer up their toughest turbo workouts for the sadists amongst you. You should check it out as they definitely agree with you that variety is the key to beating turbo boredom.

BeaconRuth

doyler78 wrote:

The current issue of Cycling Weekly's Health & Fitness for Cyclists (Winter Edition) has 5 or 6 coaches who offer up their toughest turbo workouts for the sadists amongst you. You should check it out as they definitely agree with you that variety is the key to beating turbo boredom.

Except that mine has stamped all over it "for just before you want to reach your peak". I wasn't asked for the best turbo session to do in the depths of winter.

Wheeker585 - my feeling about what you're doing is that it's perfect for a tester, but is probably too 'one-pace' if you intend to road race or do any other kind of racing that involves changes of pace. Testers have to ride at one pace, so training at one pace is the business. Roadmen rarely ride at one pace, so keeping things changing is not a bad habit for them. Even if you just switched between 80%maxHR and 85%maxHR every 5mins or so, that would vary things a bit. Or generate the same power (or speed) but with different gears and cadences? Maybe your 10sec bursts are doing the job of breaking things up enough already?

Ruth

SteveR_100Milers

Jeez, riding for 70 minutes at 85%MHR in the middle of December! What the hell do you do at the end of February????

I cant manage more than 80% for about 10 minutes after which frankly my head explodes.

I have the arnie baker book too (and reviewed it on Amazon) its well worth buying as his approach is to vary things a lot between and within workouts.

BeaconRuth

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Jeez, riding for 70 minutes at 85%MHR in the middle of December! What the hell do you do at the end of February????

I cant manage more than 80% for about 10 minutes after which frankly my head explodes.

Are you incredulous because of the intensity level or because of the tedium factor, Steve?

The intensity is just right, IMO (the op did say 80-85%MHR, not 85%MHR - there is a big difference). There's plenty of headroom above that to work a lot harder later on.

As for the boredom - you can vary things like I suggested above to stop your head exploding. But that doesn't mean it's not good training to work at that level for an hour. I just did a steady hour at 82% myself.

Ruth

inseine

Out of interest people, are you doing 2x20 type efforts at 85%? Toks says he does these at tempo/threshold 80-85%. For most people Threshold tends to be 85%+, no? If your doing them at 80-85% are you holding off a bit because it's early still?

vorsprung

If I go on the turbo this time of year I would tend to do an hour at 70%. This would be a last resort instead of going out on the road

Which is utterly tedious but hey! It's a turbo! It's supposed to be

inseine

vorsprung, I would say that workout is not much use, especially if you don't even enjoy it. It's not much more than a recovery ride so you'd be better uping the pace or having a night off.

Alex_Simmons/RST

I've posted similar before. Here's a 60-min tempo workout by a female athlete done on a trainer . It shows power (yellow) and HR (red):



The power was maintained at a consistent level and in this case was at 90% of the athlete's Functional Threshold Power (max 1-hr power).

Note the HR drifting upwards through the course of the entire interval. Ignoring the rapid rise right at the start of the effort, and from when it levels to a steady "gradient", the HR during this tempo ride rose steadily from 77% to 85% of this athlete's Max HR and the overall average was 82%. YMMV.

Comments from the athlete indicated this was a hard workout.

This kind of HR drift is normal when riding at a quasi-steady state power output.

Conversely, if one holds HR steady, then you can expect your power to consistently fall through the course of the effort.

Following is an example of just this, where an athlete (not same one) was attempting their best effort for an hour:



As you can see, their HR lifted very quickly at the start, which they held steady for ~ 42 minutes, at which point they started to crack and then crack badly.

Note also, the gradually decline in power throughout the entire effort, then the obvious rapid decline when they finally cracked.

Starting hard (even though it doesn't necessarily feel all that hard) and getting HR up into zone quickly and then attempting to hold onto it, is often a recipie for terrible pacing and/or for cracking and being unable to effectively complete the desired workout.

Anonymous

I watched Kung Fu panda whilst I did some speed /Technique work on my trainer today.

I did -
20 mins warm up
3 sets of 10secs fast pedal, 10secs faster then 10 secs max cadence with 60 secs recovery in between each set
10 mins of bimbling at a resonable rate
3 sets of 1 legged drills which were 4x30 secs alternating on each leg with 2 min recovery between each set. Then warm down.

It was quite hard.

Ramanujan

inseine wrote:

Out of interest people, are you doing 2x20 type efforts at 85%? Toks says he does these at tempo/threshold 80-85%. For most people Threshold tends to be 85%+, no? If your doing them at 80-85% are you holding off a bit because it's early still?

Don't get hung up about the numbers or what other people are doing.
I know guys who do their 2x20's at 95% max.
Everyone's different.
Some people tempo is 80%, others its 85-90%.

Learn to listen to your body and follow what it tells you.

SteveR_100Milers

Alex, that is really interesting, as I have tried going straight from the gun on a turbo (since I have bad habit of doing this in a TT) and I am not sure of which is best (to offset the tedium).

@ RUTH - my shock is both the intensity - non stop at 80+% I find incrediblky difficult on a turbo, maybe the menatl torture is also that the pain is much more obvious. Yet I can ride a 1 hour road route at what I would describe as nothing more than fast tempo, and my average HR is easily around the 85% mark. I'm amazed (impressed is the word really) thaty anyone can put so muuch effort into a turbo session as a steady state ride, and so early in the season. If I could manage an hour, it would be more like 70% effort. Having said that, I dont even look at my HRM anymore, I use the speedo as a target (average speed) to ride to. 10 miles is enough for me at one go!

nmcgann

BeaconRuth wrote:

As for the boredom - you can vary things like I suggested above to stop your head exploding. But that doesn't mean it's not good training to work at that level for an hour. I just did a steady hour at 82% myself.

Ruth

Now that's interesting Ruth, that percentage caught my eye. Oddly enough my 1h session tonight averaged 82% of my MHR too which says "tempo", but the power was 93% of my current FTP which says "threshold".

So HR data was telling me I was working in one zone while power data was telling me something different. Perceived exertion was somewhere in-between, it felt like a hard 2h tempo ride, but easier than specific threshold work. The power/hr relationship was very like the plot Alex posted.

The boredom level was high though. These long, mildly uncomfortable sessions seem to last for ever

Neil

BeaconRuth

inseine wrote:

Out of interest people, are you doing 2x20 type efforts at 85%?

You could do 2x20's at any effort level, although I would say that anything with an av HR lower than 85%maxHR could be done continuously - so why break it up by doing 2x20? (Though clearly Steve disagrees. )

Toks says he does these at tempo/threshold 80-85%. For most people Threshold tends to be 85%+, no?

Yes, though controlling training efforts based on HRs above 85% becomes more and more difficult/meaningless. In fact, defining a threshold with HR is a bit meaningless and unreliable. (Far better to define it by the rear wheel speed or cadence in a given gear on a consistently calibrated turbo.)

If your doing them at 80-85% are you holding off a bit because it's early still?

I'm not doing 2x20's as explained above. But yes, I am holding back a lot on intensity (but not on volume) because it's only December. I would be severely burnt out by March if I was doing many sessions above tempo (80-85%maxHR) now. (That comment comes with the health warning that I'm doing a large volume of training. If you are doing less, it makes sense to train a bit harder.)

Ruth

BeaconRuth

nmcgann wrote:

BeaconRuth wrote:

As for the boredom - you can vary things like I suggested above to stop your head exploding. But that doesn't mean it's not good training to work at that level for an hour. I just did a steady hour at 82% myself.

Ruth

Now that's interesting Ruth, that percentage caught my eye. Oddly enough my 1h session tonight averaged 82% of my MHR too which says "tempo", but the power was 93% of my current FTP which says "threshold".

So HR data was telling me I was working in one zone while power data was telling me something different. Perceived exertion was somewhere in-between, it felt like a hard 2h tempo ride, but easier than specific threshold work. The power/hr relationship was very like the plot Alex posted.

The boredom level was high though. These long, mildly uncomfortable sessions seem to last for ever

Neil

Well just to prove that everybody is different, I can assure you that my power was dead constant thoughout and my HR varied from 81.5% to 82.5%, after the initial 5 mins of settling down. I have no cardiac drift at all - at least at this effort level.

If your session felt like a hard 2hr tempo ride, that sounds perfect. Your av HR was where I suggest it should be and you did a great training session. I'm not sure what the issue is? I don't think that's working too hard at this time of year as long as you're not trying to do multiple sessions per day?

Ruth

nmcgann

BeaconRuth wrote:

nmcgann wrote:

BeaconRuth wrote:

As for the boredom - you can vary things like I suggested above to stop your head exploding. But that doesn't mean it's not good training to work at that level for an hour. I just did a steady hour at 82% myself.

Ruth

Now that's interesting Ruth, that percentage caught my eye. Oddly enough my 1h session tonight averaged 82% of my MHR too which says "tempo", but the power was 93% of my current FTP which says "threshold".

So HR data was telling me I was working in one zone while power data was telling me something different. Perceived exertion was somewhere in-between, it felt like a hard 2h tempo ride, but easier than specific threshold work. The power/hr relationship was very like the plot Alex posted.

The boredom level was high though. These long, mildly uncomfortable sessions seem to last for ever

Neil

Well just to prove that everybody is different, I can assure you that my power was dead constant thoughout and my HR varied from 81.5% to 82.5%, after the initial 5 mins of settling down. I have no cardiac drift at all - at least at this effort level.

If your session felt like a hard 2hr tempo ride, that sounds perfect. Your av HR was where I suggest it should be and you did a great training session. I'm not sure what the issue is? I don't think that's working too hard at this time of year as long as you're not trying to do multiple sessions per day?

Ruth

No issue Ruth - just commenting. It's interesting trying to tie up HR, power and perception. I don't really think there's solid conclusions to be made, but it whiles away the winter evenings trying

Wow, no HR drift. That's interesting. Mine went from 141-158 over the hour after the warmup. I've got good cooling and I don't need to drink at this level of output, so it must be just cumulative fatigue.

Neil

bikerider123

Sat on the turbo last night to do an hours work. Realised how much I hate it. Going out in the rain tomorrow instead

wheeler585

To be honest, i dont really think that 80-85% of your max is to bad for this time of year! Supose its what your use to, if your a non racer then keeping at 80-85% of your max could be hard work and could start blowing out your arse! 85% of my max seems pretty easy for me, find it hard to even keep below 85% as drift off then look down and my hr is at around 88% (174bpm) So have do bring it down! If you do sportives, your first event isnt going to be until end of march/may. My racing season starts at the end of Feb, so going to start winding it up mid jan, then training camp mid feb. Some people dont even start there training till Jan, this for me would be far to late.

To me the whole winter training thing is a bit of a grey area, i know riders who continue there high end tempo all the way through winter. On the other hand i know riders who take a good 2 months off and do steady 100 mile rides and cross train.

There was a good article in pro cycling at the begining of last year. Greg Lemond was talking about how he thinks riding steady 100 miles rides in the winter is no use at all if your racing. He suggested to do high tempo 30-40 miles rides (zone 3)

I kinda agree with him , i use to do 100+ miles, they seem to make me feel like crap for days, plus i would eat like there was no tomorrow afterwards!

Airbornerodent

Top tip:
To deal with the boredom and to get a little extra inspiration, I take my PC downstairs and play my youtube playlist of Tour de France clips.....
It works a treat; as soon as you see Armstrong, Contador, Sastre et al storming up the alpine peaks, you're up on your pedals going like the clappers.
Whether it's 80, 85 or 90% that i am going at, I don't really care, but I am always sha@@ed when finished, and that'll do for me.....

gb-locks

Airbornerodent wrote:

Top tip:
To deal with the boredom and to get a little extra inspiration, I take my PC downstairs and play my youtube playlist of Tour de France clips.....
It works a treat; as soon as you see Armstrong, Contador, Sastre et al storming up the alpine peaks, you're up on your pedals going like the clappers.
Whether it's 80, 85 or 90% that i am going at, I don't really care, but I am always sha@@ed when finished, and that'll do for me.....

If you've got the pc handy try http://thesufferfest.com/category/videocast-workouts/

ozzzyosborn206

at this time of year i just tend to do power sessions on the turbo, i know some people who try to keep their heart rate really low till feb/march time and i know others you are maxing their heart rate out now, i tend to ride steady dont go over 190 (max is 215) but do running as a bit of cross training where my heart rate goes over 200 pretty easily, if i was doing high temp stuff on the bike now i think i would burn out mid season but also get a bit bored of pushing myself so hard for 11 months of the year. Everyone is different to its all trial and error

SteveR_100Milers

BeaconRuth wrote:

Well just to prove that everybody is different, I can assure you that my power was dead constant thoughout and my HR varied from 81.5% to 82.5%, after the initial 5 mins of settling down. I have no cardiac drift at all - at least at this effort level.

If your session felt like a hard 2hr tempo ride, that sounds perfect. Your av HR was where I suggest it should be and you did a great training session. I'm not sure what the issue is? I don't think that's working too hard at this time of year as long as you're not trying to do multiple sessions per day?

Ruth

75% on my turbo feels just like this. 85% on the road feels like this. 90-92% on the track supposedly warming down (i.e. not sprinting, but steady laps) feels like this! As I said earlier I ignore the HR now, and ride purely as hard as my legs feel like it.

vorsprung

inseine wrote:

vorsprung, I would say that workout is not much use, especially if you don't even enjoy it. It's not much more than a recovery ride so you'd be better uping the pace or having a night off.

No, I can't agree.

If I *cannot* get out on the road due to appalling weather and I *only* have an opportunity to fit a ride in at the moment then a 70% hour is perfectly ok. You say I should up the pace. But it is DECEMBER. 10 weeks from now is the end of February. Do I need any kind of form then?

When I broke my collar bone and I wasn't able to ride on the road, I was doing 100 minutes at 80% after a half hour warm up. This isn't an ideal way to train but it suited what I needed to do then. 70% for an hour again is not ideal but it is the nearest I can get to what I need

Finally, I should point out that I am not a 10 mile time trial rider. Most of the wit and wisdom for turboing is for the short TT rider. But this isn't me.

inseine

Vorsprung ( i'd quote you if I could work out how!), it has been discussed at length on this forum how 70% is a recovery ride and not of any real training benifit especially for short rides (an hour, with warm up, cool down is realistically only 40 mins of work) and if you find it so tendious (your own words) you're going to be sick of training before you even do any. Put your feet and be raring to go in January or put a bit more effort in (you might even find it less boring).
I'm not a tester these days either BTW

wheeler585

I see no point at all riding at 70%, it sounds high but have you actually put a hrm on and tried this?? As inseine says, its at the best a recovery ride. I dont see why people are so worried about putting a bit of effort in the winter, its not going to harm you! As long as your not doing intervals at your max every session, wheres the problem?? I appreciate that everyone has there own standard of riding, but come on i think 70% is a bit of a nothing ride.

wheeler585

Also dont agree with turbos just being for the short time trial rider. There fantastic for long endurance, ie if your to breakaway from the pack and stay away, perfect for interval training i.e leaping from a group or hitting steep digs at pace in a pack also to warm up and down, and burning off winter lard from pigging out

What kinda riding do you compete in vorsprung??

SteveR_100Milers

vorsprung wrote:

inseine wrote:

vorsprung, I would say that workout is not much use, especially if you don't even enjoy it. It's not much more than a recovery ride so you'd be better uping the pace or having a night off.

No, I can't agree.

If I *cannot* get out on the road due to appalling weather and I *only* have an opportunity to fit a ride in at the moment then a 70% hour is perfectly ok. You say I should up the pace. But it is DECEMBER. 10 weeks from now is the end of February. Do I need any kind of form then?

When I broke my collar bone and I wasn't able to ride on the road, I was doing 100 minutes at 80% after a half hour warm up. This isn't an ideal way to train but it suited what I needed to do then. 70% for an hour again is not ideal but it is the nearest I can get to what I need

Finally, I should point out that I am not a 10 mile time trial rider. Most of the wit and wisdom for turboing is for the short TT rider. But this isn't me.

There are plenty of long distance testers that use them succesfully; and plenty of others that use them for interval training which is pretty useful for RRing too! A turbo is no different from any other riding, so long as its long flat windless straight with no scenery....

brucey72

In a couple of replies, reference has been made to a "tester"................I hope I'm not being blonde but could someone explain what this means please