Maybe a daft question but... Are Sportives actually races?
Comments
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nasahapley wrote:. It's not difficult to see how the question would arise - rider in a big, fast moving group goes off-line and collides with a pedestrian causing them injury, pedestrian claims against the organiser's public liability insurance, insurer investigates and decides actually, it won't pay up because it believes what was going on was a 'race' which isn't covered by the policy.
But surely that could apply in other cases? What about a club run where a group are working together & hit a pedestrian who the first guy manages to avoid but the others don't. It could also be argued that riding on someones wheel is also inherently dangerous and illegal. If you organise an event from A to B there is always a risk that people will ride dangerously, but that is surely down to the individual and not the organiser0 -
ellieb wrote:nasahapley wrote:. It's not difficult to see how the question would arise - rider in a big, fast moving group goes off-line and collides with a pedestrian causing them injury, pedestrian claims against the organiser's public liability insurance, insurer investigates and decides actually, it won't pay up because it believes what was going on was a 'race' which isn't covered by the policy.
But surely that could apply in other cases? What about a club run where a group are working together & hit a pedestrian who the first guy manages to avoid but the others don't. It could also be argued that riding on someones wheel is also inherently dangerous and illegal. If you organise an event from A to B there is always a risk that people will ride dangerously, but that is surely down to the individual and not the organiser
Not too sure what your point is re the club run thing; I assume you're not saying that the injured pedestrian should have no redress at all? A club run wouldn't be part of an organised event so there could be no repercussions beyond the rider in question or possibly the club's insurer facing a claim, and I'm sure this sort of thing has happened in the past. Also, because it's not in a timed, organised event with published results, unless the group in question were blatantly heads-down sprinting it would be a lot more difficult to make the case that they were 'racing'. I just think that if the same thing were to happen in a sportive as they currently are it would be much more difficult to argue against the proposition that there was racing going on.
And you're bang right about riding on a wheel as well; if you follow six inches behind someone, they brake sharply/get a puncture, and you plough into the back of them causing harm to them or their bike, you could well be found to be negligent and liable for damages, exactly the same as if you were tailgating in a car. Bringing it back to the format of sportives, just because they've always been organised in a certain way, and everybody involved (including me) likes them as they are, doesn't make them immune from any relevant law. As you rightly say, 'if you organise an event from A to B there is always a risk that people will ride dangerously', and so it's down to an organiser to take reasonable steps to ensure this risk is kept to a minimum. Explicitly stating that it isn't a race is one thing they can do, but in my opinion to then lay on everything necessary for riders to race puts them back on shaky legal ground in the event of a claim.0 -
nasahapley wrote:
Bringing it back to the format of sportives, just because they've always been organised in a certain way, and everybody involved (including me) likes them as they are, .
I love the format of sportives
My Xmas wish (above) might be just that-it will take a real change of attitude, before (if ever) the law is changed.
Oh well, I'll have to keep going to France and Italy each summer ......“It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway0 -
angelic upstart wrote:Well said oldwelsh, a sportive is not a race. The likes of Rob Jebb, and most racing lads treat sportives as a good hard training ride, race up the climbs and wait for there mates then off again. If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one.
Cannot agree with this....and I can only comment on the FWC on this basis....guys like Rob Jebb,Stuart Reid,James Dobbins do not treat this as a good hard training ride....this was an all out and out effort....in 2007 on the FWC....Stuart Reid and Andy Wrigley etc all clubbed together to break the 6 hour mark(it was stated at the start of the 2007 FWC DVD from Cyclefilm) .and they were fully supported by cars , no stopping, feeding from cars....and they succeeded.
This year all riders were supporting Rob Jebb, but this year we also had present the Hill Climb Champion James Dobbin....with full Car support etc.....and going up Hardknott Pass bystanders were going crazy shouting words of encouragment to both...and those guys were pushing as hard as they could...and stopping at the top was out the question.....they arrived at the finish at 5.45 or so....hard training ride.....aye right!!!
I'm not saying all top guys do this on Sportives....but on the FWC there definately is a all out Race going on with the big boys....and these 2 lads would probably hump 95% of the top UK 'Race' guys....0 -
They were trying their best to get their best time weren't they?
There is undeniably a competitive element to Sportives, and I for one, like it. It's important though to make the distinction between setting your own best time and racing against the other entrants
You see how difficult it is, and hence why nashapley's warning should be heeded“It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway0 -
Ken Night wrote:They were trying their best to get their best time weren't they?
There is undeniably a competitive element to Sportives, and I for one, like it. It's important though to make the distinction between setting your own best time and racing against the other entrants
You see how difficult it is, and hence why nashapley's warning should be heeded
Yeah Ken they were trying to get there best time and not get beaten with there opponent in doing so
Definately a very competitive edge to Sportives...tons of my mates are obsessed with 'best times'....fair enough whatever floats your boat....but as I say...as long as in acheiving your best time you don't put others at risk due to dangerous riding....
I'm personally not really interested in best times....it don't really matter to me...I usually ride round with guys of a very similar ability to me and have much camerarderie and much support...not only that we have a good craic....and at the end of the day I've had a tremendous day out with good friends....
Another for me on the FWC.....My time this year was 8.56....never 100%'d it as I was terrified of what lay at 100miles....but I managed to get round without stopping or walking any of the hills...to me thats much more important and satisfying than shaving an hour of my time....as many had much better times than me, but not many managed up hardknott at 100miles.....its all personal?0 -
Ken Night wrote:angelic upstart wrote:Well said oldwelsh, a sportive is not a race. The likes of Rob Jebb, and most racing lads treat sportives as a good hard training ride, race up the climbs and wait for there mates then off again. If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one. :roll:
You've missed the point-I didn't say I thought sportives are races. They are not
Agreed.
There are several people on here repeatedly and frustratedly trying to point out that sportives are not races.
I agree. They're not.
Ken, nasahapley and I are all making similar points.
None of us are saying that technically sportives are races.
But if some riders think they're races, they become races to those riders.
Richy says Rob Jebb and co were racing on FWC, complete with team cars and support, etc.
Then FWC was a race to them.
More worrying to me than Rob Jebb is that I reckon there are lots of newer and less experienced riders who read about 'these sportive races' in the comic or C+ and want to have a go.
"If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one. :roll:"
Exactly ! They haven't done one !
But they think a sportive is one and they turn up and they ride as though it's a race - safety, common sense, highway Code, etc out of the window.
And we have the general public who watch this.
Someone above said they don't care if the public thinks it's a race
- well you should do !
They're the people who write letters to their local paper, or the council, or the National Park authority, or their MP, etc. Their councillors sit on their local police board.
We live in a cycling-intolerant nation, so if a driver is scared silly by some cyclists coming round a blind bend, or a walker is forced out of the road, or a farmer's livestock is panicked, etc then we're really just prompting complaint and risking the future of sportives - because these people could get them stopped.
How many complaints were there in Scotland from local residents who couldn't drive to the shops or get to their church services because the roads were closed for the Etape Caledonia ?
We need to keep (maybe even get) these local people on-side.
My worry is that riders treating them like races will have the opposite effect and that publishing results where you can see you came 127th of 456 encourages that.0 -
andy_wrx wrote:Ken Night wrote:angelic upstart wrote:Well said oldwelsh, a sportive is not a race. The likes of Rob Jebb, and most racing lads treat sportives as a good hard training ride, race up the climbs and wait for there mates then off again. If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one. :roll:
You've missed the point-I didn't say I thought sportives are races. They are not
Agreed.
There are several people on here repeatedly and frustratedly trying to point out that sportives are not races.
I agree. They're not.
Ken, nasahapley and I are all making similar points.
None of us are saying that technically sportives are races.
But if some riders think they're races, they become races to those riders.
Richy says Rob Jebb and co were racing on FWC, complete with team cars and support, etc.
Then FWC was a race to them.
More worrying to me than Rob Jebb is that I reckon there are lots of newer and less experienced riders who read about 'these sportive races' in the comic or C+ and want to have a go.
"If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one. :roll:"
Exactly ! They haven't done one !
But they think a sportive is one and they turn up and they ride as though it's a race - safety, common sense, highway Code, etc out of the window.
And we have the general public who watch this.
Someone above said they don't care if the public thinks it's a race
- well you should do !
They're the people who write letters to their local paper, or the council, or the National Park authority, or their MP, etc. Their councillors sit on their local police board.
We live in a cycling-intolerant nation, so if a driver is scared silly by some cyclists coming round a blind bend, or a walker is forced out of the road, or a farmer's livestock is panicked, etc then we're really just prompting complaint and risking the future of sportives - because these people could get them stopped.
How many complaints were there in Scotland from local residents who couldn't drive to the shops or get to their church services because the roads were closed for the Etape Caledonia ?
We need to keep (maybe even get) these local people on-side.
My worry is that riders treating them like races will have the opposite effect and that publishing results where you can see you came 127th of 456 encourages that.
Agreed.....To some they are a Race...to others they are a personal challenge to improve on a previous result...to others they are a fitness goal...to others they are just plain survival....
I'd say
1) around 40% just try and survive the bloody things.
2) around 40% go for the best time possible
3) around 20% treat it like it is a Race(or at least what they think is a race)?
P.s I fall into category 1
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RICHYBOYcp wrote:angelic upstart wrote:Well said oldwelsh, a sportive is not a race. The likes of Rob Jebb, and most racing lads treat sportives as a good hard training ride, race up the climbs and wait for there mates then off again. If you think they are races, its just means youve never done one.
Cannot agree with this....and I can only comment on the FWC on this basis....guys like Rob Jebb,Stuart Reid,James Dobbins do not treat this as a good hard training ride....this was an all out and out effort....in 2007 on the FWC....Stuart Reid and Andy Wrigley etc all clubbed together to break the 6 hour mark(it was stated at the start of the 2007 FWC DVD from Cyclefilm) .and they were fully supported by cars , no stopping, feeding from cars....and they succeeded.
This year all riders were supporting Rob Jebb, but this year we also had present the Hill Climb Champion James Dobbin....with full Car support etc.....and going up Hardknott Pass bystanders were going crazy shouting words of encouragment to both...and those guys were pushing as hard as they could...and stopping at the top was out the question.....they arrived at the finish at 5.45 or so....hard training ride.....aye right!!!
I'm not saying all top guys do this on Sportives....but on the FWC there definately is a all out Race going on with the big boys....and these 2 lads would probably hump 95% of the top UK 'Race' guys....
I think not. There is a huge difference between doing a fast time on a sportive and beating other elite riders in an actual race where tactics also come into play. If they could "hump" all the top races how come they are not top of the premier calander?
Maybe I am missing the point of this thread or perhaps some sportive riders have a different idea of what a race is as I keep seeing it stated here that some riders treat it as a race.
Does that mean they all head off together at the start of the sportive and try to get to the line first? That is a point of a race, with tactics, also, I don't recall seeing any tactice in a sportive other than chew bars to get to the top of the climbs
If as some riders claim it is a race as it is timed then by definition if I go on a regular training ride and try to beat previous times then that also becomes a race?
What about TT's? Now theres another debate
A race is a race, a sportive is a sportive (not a race) a TT is a TT (not a race) a training ride is a training ride (not a race) IMO of course.
Maybe we should contract a lawyer to clearly define all of these just in case
With respect to Robb Jebb and others having team support on a sportive, I have no issue with this but would say that if they do this they should start off first in front of everyone else for safety reasons, though personally I think it is a bit of an overkill for UK sportives.
If they really wanted to do this type of ride why don't they enter the Etape, Marmotte or other continental sportives where there are many teams with support riding, several pro riders, amateur teams etc and the event more geared up for these type of riders along with the "normal" sportive riders.
Unless they were "sponsored" to ride the FWC and to beat the time 0 -
Rob Jebb and James Dobbin were racing each other flat out. There was no waiting at the top of hills and regrouping. A friend of mine was passed by them on Hardknott and they were trying to break each other.
These two would not be hugely competitive in the Premier Calendar, but their particular skills suit them to this challenge. James Dobbin is the country's best hill climber, and Rob Jebb is a top fell runner and cyclocross rider. He wins the Three Peaks on a regular basis.
The Fred Whitton route is totally different to the sort of course encountered in normal cycle races, and the type of climbing is totally different from that encountered on the continent.
I reckon there would be very few riders in this country or elsewhere who could get round the Fred Whitton as quickly.
The Fred Whitton predates the current sportive boom and has always had a competitive element at the front. It has always had something of the character of long distance fell runs about it, and has drawn a lot of local fell runners into riding the event.
I think because of this it shouldn't be viewed as typical of most sportives. I've never seen the same competitive edge on any of the other events I've ridden.
It would be a shame IMHO if the uniqueness of events like the Fred Whitton was lost. Sadly in this litigious age, organisers must be looking over their shoulders all the time.0 -
Blimey - I only asked a quick question out of curiosity.
Anyway, if you're at the Cumbrian Christmas Cracker this weekend and looking for a race, don't pick on the big fella on a white Titus cos I'm just there for a pleasant ride!Higs0 -
"With respect to Robb Jebb and others having team support on a sportive, I have no issue with this but would say that if they do this they should start off first in front of everyone else for safety reasons, though personally I think it is a bit of an overkill for UK sportives. "
I thought that support vehicles were banned in sportives anyway?0 -
So basically nobody on here treats them as races or thinks they are races but there is a bunch of people out there who do. Or maybe the fact none of us ride them like a race just reflects the fact that the vast majority of competitors don't either. Strange race where so few of the competitors are racing.
I think we give too little credit to the organisers of these events who have presumably discussed these issues, with the involvement of BC in some of them, and are satisfied that they are fine legally. If we start trying to change the law to allow them to be more competitive we risk bringing in more restrictions which is the last thing we need.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
On support in a sportive - I thought the same as you SportBilly - does sort of invalidate their time if that's how they did it.
it's a hard life if you don't weaken.0 -
Nickwill wrote:Rob Jebb and James Dobbin were racing each other flat out. There was no waiting at the top of hills and regrouping. A friend of mine was passed by them on Hardknott and they were trying to break each other.
These two would not be hugely competitive in the Premier Calendar, but their particular skills suit them to this challenge. James Dobbin is the country's best hill climber, and Rob Jebb is a top fell runner and cyclocross rider. He wins the Three Peaks on a regular basis.
The Fred Whitton route is totally different to the sort of course encountered in normal cycle races, and the type of climbing is totally different from that encountered on the continent.
I reckon there would be very few riders in this country or elsewhere who could get round the Fred Whitton as quickly.
The Fred Whitton predates the current sportive boom and has always had a competitive element at the front. It has always had something of the character of long distance fell runs about it, and has drawn a lot of local fell runners into riding the event.
I think because of this it shouldn't be viewed as typical of most sportives. I've never seen the same competitive edge on any of the other events I've ridden.
It would be a shame IMHO if the uniqueness of events like the Fred Whitton was lost. Sadly in this litigious age, organisers must be looking over their shoulders all the time.
I think they were more than likely flat out but not racing each other more helping each other. Why do you think they started together? As for trying to break each other on the climbs? I do not think so even if one is slightly stronger on a climb he would not gain more than a minute, even then he wpuld loose more time doing the next few miles alone than two of them doing turns.
With respect to Dobbins being the countries best hill climber, yes he is the hill climb champion, he specialises in those events but that does not make him the best climer in the UK surely? Remember Chris Boardman wiining the title? Hardly the best climber.
There are probably quite a few riders who would beat that time and probably quite a few juniors also, they just choose not to do hill climb championships and sportives. In fact I would be surprised if any of the premier event riders would not finish in below 6 hours , I would though thats for certain. 0 -
oldwelshman wrote:Nickwill wrote:Rob Jebb and James Dobbin were racing each other flat out. There was no waiting at the top of hills and regrouping. A friend of mine was passed by them on Hardknott and they were trying to break each other.
These two would not be hugely competitive in the Premier Calendar, but their particular skills suit them to this challenge. James Dobbin is the country's best hill climber, and Rob Jebb is a top fell runner and cyclocross rider. He wins the Three Peaks on a regular basis.
The Fred Whitton route is totally different to the sort of course encountered in normal cycle races, and the type of climbing is totally different from that encountered on the continent.
I reckon there would be very few riders in this country or elsewhere who could get round the Fred Whitton as quickly.
The Fred Whitton predates the current sportive boom and has always had a competitive element at the front. It has always had something of the character of long distance fell runs about it, and has drawn a lot of local fell runners into riding the event.
I think because of this it shouldn't be viewed as typical of most sportives. I've never seen the same competitive edge on any of the other events I've ridden.
It would be a shame IMHO if the uniqueness of events like the Fred Whitton was lost. Sadly in this litigious age, organisers must be looking over their shoulders all the time.
I think they were more than likely flat out but not racing each other more helping each other. Why do you think they started together? As for trying to break each other on the climbs? I do not think so even if one is slightly stronger on a climb he would not gain more than a minute, even then he wpuld loose more time doing the next few miles alone than two of them doing turns.
With respect to Dobbins being the countries best hill climber, yes he is the hill climb champion, he specialises in those events but that does not make him the best climer in the UK surely? Remember Chris Boardman wiining the title? Hardly the best climber.
There are probably quite a few riders who would beat that time and probably quite a few juniors also, they just choose not to do hill climb championships and sportives. In fact I would be surprised if any of the premier event riders would not finish in below 6 hours , I would though thats for certain.
I think as Nick says the FWC is a tad different from other sportifs...I've not seen that type of competition on any other I've personally been on....but Nick is definitely correct, those guys were racing....I was on the FWC...I seen them passing with Car support and flashing beacons and all...my mate was on hardknott when James and Robb came up.... they had 'made a move earlier' and dropped the others in the group...and they were definately trying to break each other....it was a competition between the 2...no 'helping each other out'.
Yes, Chris Boardman was the Hill climb champion...but I wouldn't say he was not worthy of the title or wasn't a good climber.......he was probably the best hill climber of his day in the UK...but thats only in the UK which has hardly been a portal for great cyclists?...when he went to the big races in France etc...yes,he got thumped on the climbs....but thats because of the level he was competing with....I remember Craig from Veloventoux explaining that on one of the stages which finished up Ventoux that the slowest big heavy sprinter to finish was still some 15mins faster than the best guys hes ever had over from the Uk going up it...and the big heavy sprinter had done 120miles or so beforehand.......its all levels man...
Rob Jebb, well this mans a bit of a legend....pure talent...hes a BT Engineer, mainly a Fell Runner and prolific winner of the mighty 3 peaks(I think 7 titles) ...hes also the fastest lad ever to run up Ben Nevis etc.......a few years back when we had foot and mouth the 3 peaks was cancelled....he was asked to take part in the USA equivalent...he went out and hammered the champion out there, also beating the record by some 35mins or so...Cycling for this fella is only one discipline...if he were to fully concentrate on Cycling I reckon he would really test the best in the UK....hes got the engine...he just would need to fine tune....
No disrespect to any of our Premier lads at all....but this fellas something else.
(P.s I reckon a good few Premier Calender would break 6 hours aswell, but I reckon a lot wouldnt....not too many are used to such gradients), and I honestly beleive few of them have the natural talent that bestows Jebb....0 -
Jebb also won a mountain bking event in the Lakes back in June - the Sam Houghton Challenge. 35 miles off-road over several Lakes passes and Jebb caned it in about 2 hr 20 min.Le Blaireau (1)0
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‘’On support in a sportive - I thought the same as you SportBilly - does sort of invalidate their time if that's how they did it.’’
I would disagree that support invalidates the time set by Rob Jebb/James Dobbin; in this years Fred many riders had support from fellow team members to friends and family at strategic points on the route. I think Rob/James had ridden in a group up to Honister then broke away at that point; as many people will tell you the climb of Honister Pass is the ‘real’ start of the Fred. Rob and James passed me going into Lorton and I did not see any support vehicle, just two riders going at a pretty good pace (and yes they were on the correct side of the road). I don’t know anything about James Dobbin but I do see Rob occasionally and the reason he is quick is he works at it. Rob is an amateur athlete with a full time job, he even considers himself to be an average cyclist, more of a fell runner. Rob will be out on the hills running for an hour, cycle to work, do a full days work, ride home the long way (3+ hours) and then run for another hour; at the weekend he will do longer (6 hour) training rides. This type of dedication is why these riders put up the performances they do; not because they were in a group (as were many other riders) for the first 40 miles.0 -
I think as Nick says the FWC is a tad different from other sportifs...I've not seen that type of competition on any other I've personally been on....but Nick is definitely correct, those guys were racing....I was on the FWC...I seen them passing with Car support and flashing beacons and all...my mate was on hardknott when James and Robb came up.... they had 'made a move earlier' and dropped the others in the group...and they were definately trying to break each other....it was a competition between the 2...no 'helping each other out'.
Ok the only two people who definately know if they were trying to drop each other is those riders themselves but nevertheless, whether intentionally or not they were helping each other buyriding hard and pushing each other and I don't believe for one minute they rode side by side for the ride, I am sure they would have taken turns each at the front to share the work load.
Yes, Chris Boardman was the Hill climb champion...but I wouldn't say he was not worthy of the title or wasn't a good climber.......he was probably the best hill climber of his day in the UK...but thats only in the UK which has hardly been a portal for great cyclists?..
Chris was no where near the best climber in UK when he won the hill climb The hill climb is a specific event as you probably know, which is a short steep hill usually, and only for about 2 to 4 minutes duration ( more of a hill sprint) which is why Chris was able to apply himself to win it. He was a world class cyclist but not a climber.
.when he went to the big races in France etc...yes,he got thumped on the climbs....but thats because of the level he was competing with....I remember Craig from Veloventoux explaining that on one of the stages which finished up Ventoux that the slowest big heavy sprinter to finish was still some 15mins faster than the best guys hes ever had over from the Uk going up it...and the big heavy sprinter had done 120miles or so beforehand.......its all levels man...
This I cannot believe Are you telling me the sprinters from the TDF got up faster than anyone from UK timed going up there? Or just the ones Craig has seen? Even Boardman would beat the sprinters up there Does he have the names of the "big heavy" sprinters who did such a good time?
Rob Jebb, well this mans a bit of a legend....pure talent...hes a BT Engineer, mainly a Fell Runner and prolific winner of the mighty 3 peaks(I think 7 titles) ...hes also the fastest lad ever to run up Ben Nevis etc.......a few years back when we had foot and mouth the 3 peaks was cancelled....he was asked to take part in the USA equivalent...he went out and hammered the champion out there, also beating the record by some 35mins or so...Cycling for this fella is only one discipline...if he were to fully concentrate on Cycling I reckon he would really test the best in the UK....hes got the engine...he just would need to fine tune....
I have read about Robb many times he is obviously a very talented athlete. Not sure if he would make a top road cyclist only he and his coaches would know that and I am pretty sure he would have been tested and possibly targeted by the UK cycle coaches in Manchester already and psobably knows the answer It's not just the fitness either, cannot forget the tactics involved in road racing, it is a major part of a good road cyclist.
No disrespect to any of our Premier lads at all....but this fellas something else.
(P.s I reckon a good few Premier Calender would break 6 hours aswell, but I reckon a lot wouldnt....not too many are used to such gradients), and I honestly beleive few of them have the natural talent that bestows Jebb....[/quote]
I am pretty sure the vast majority of premier riders are more than familiar with such gradients, they have to train some where Granted there are some who are local riders who enter some of these events, but the ones who ride the whole series are very capable climbers.
I watched them in the Archer race which climbed 5 times up a very steep climb (ok only a mile long but very steep) and boy were they moving.
One of the most impressive rides I have seen this year has to be the ride by a junior I used to see on here a fair bit, Andrew Bye, he did 06:19:57.0 to finnish 9th in the Marmotte. There are more juniors like him around so future looking good.
By the way, there is always a lot of talk about the difficulty of the British Hills and them being different to continental climbs as they are steeper. It is true that they are steeper, but they are not long which means even sprinters can get up them reasonably quick, and any gains made are not much as they are relatively short climbs so in a race, these gains can be pulled back by teams quickly.
You only have to look at TOB to see how close the race is every year and how few really struggle on the climbs. (except Wiggins after all his beer ) 0 -
oldwelshman wrote:I
By the way, there is always a lot of talk about the difficulty of the British Hills and them being different to continental climbs as they are steeper. It is true that they are steeper, but they are not long which means even sprinters can get up them reasonably quick, and any gains made are not much as they are relatively short climbs so in a race, these gains can be pulled back by teams quickly.
You only have to look at TOB to see how close the race is every year and how few really struggle on the climbs. (except Wiggins after all his beer )
But the Tour of Britain avoids all the really hard hills. It doesn't go over any of the hard Yorkshire, Lake District or Welsh hills. When it comes to Cumbria the hardest climb attempted in recent years was Shap, which even for club riders is a big ring climb.
If it went over Honister or Hardknott/Wrynose, I reckon there would be a mutiny from a lot of the continental pros.
One of my cycling friends recalls the Milk race going over Rosedale Chimney and watching the bulk of the field getting off and pushing.
When I rode the Raid Pyrenean recently. I found nothing to be as hard as Hardknott, and that includes the Tourmalet!0 -
Nickwill wrote:oldwelshman wrote:I
By the way, there is always a lot of talk about the difficulty of the British Hills and them being different to continental climbs as they are steeper. It is true that they are steeper, but they are not long which means even sprinters can get up them reasonably quick, and any gains made are not much as they are relatively short climbs so in a race, these gains can be pulled back by teams quickly.
You only have to look at TOB to see how close the race is every year and how few really struggle on the climbs. (except Wiggins after all his beer )
But the Tour of Britain avoids all the really hard hills. It doesn't go over any of the hard Yorkshire, Lake District or Welsh hills. When it comes to Cumbria the hardest climb attempted in recent years was Shap, which even for club riders is a big ring climb.
If it went over Honister or Hardknott/Wrynose, I reckon there would be a mutiny from a lot of the continental pros.
One of my cycling friends recalls the Milk race going over Rosedale Chimney and watching the bulk of the field getting off and pushing.
When I rode the Raid Pyrenean recently. I found nothing to be as hard as Hardknott, and that includes the Tourmalet!
fuuny that, I've did lots of the French Alpes,Pyrenees,Ventoux and the latest being the Gavia,Stelvio and Mortirolo....me and my mate spoke afetrwards...what would you rather tackle...hardknott or any of those Italian brutes..."Italian Brutes'...
Me and many I know fear the likes of Hardknott more than any of the big continental ones they've did.....think that even though its only 2kms in length...in those 2 Km's you go to places rarely visited by the body and mind
However i would rather tackle Hardknott thana climb I did on Gran Canaria...its the Pico Nieves climb from Carrizal...holy moly....23% gradients stuffed into a 1950meter climb...spew material....0 -
oldwelshman wrote:
...I remember Craig from Veloventoux explaining that on one of the stages which finished up Ventoux that the slowest big heavy sprinter to finish was still some 15mins faster than the best guys hes ever had over from the Uk going up it...and the big heavy sprinter had done 120miles or so beforehand.......its all levels man...
This I cannot believe Are you telling me the sprinters from the TDF got up faster than anyone from UK timed going up there? Or just the ones Craig has seen? Even Boardman would beat the sprinters up there Does he have the names of the "big heavy" sprinters who did such a good time?
I think he referred to all the guys he has had over there from the UK...ask him?...hes 'craigenty' on this very forum...he does have the data to show the slowest time up Ventoux?....
And I also remember reading in a 'procycling' mag and on the web that a great time for a top amateur going up Alpe de Huez was around round about 1 hour....and at the time I checked Robbie Mcewans time up there...sure it was under 50mins....just because they are sprinters in the TDF doesnt mean they can't climb...I reckon they would probably hammer most amateurs at climbing...
Anyway...where have we went with all of this :?: I think its funny how we can start a thread off talking about Sportifs...then end up talking about how fast Pro-Sprinters can climb 0 -
Yes but Robbie is like a dwarf, very light
I am no climber but did Alp in a tad over 1 hour (63 mins) and I am 48 and 100% reckon I could get under the hour so I guess there are at least a couple of hundred better climbers than me in the UK.
If I did the mileage and training they do I could do 50 minutes I reckon
Mind I took longer in the MArmotte as I was worried about crashing0 -
No mate, gotta disagree.....I think Robbie, Eric Zabel..etc would totally destroy most pro riders in the UK....different level altogether....
I remember witnessing Vinorokouv training on Alpe De Huez for the time trial in 2004....Jesus H christ...he was going faster up it than I was going down?....totally diifferent level altogether........he made the likes of Russel Downing seem a mere amateur....I've never ever seen such a display of athleticness....he was gone before I got my camera out....and as I said to my brother at the time "Can you beleive Armstrong will beat him with at least 2 mins?"....it really was a sobering moment.....Vino is by a million miles the strongest guy I've ever personally witnessed...he made Jebb seem like a tortoise....and to think the big boys even bettered that was terrifying?0 -
I recall a story from the paper just before the TDF was in London last year. . . . A local cycling club was approached by the Astana team to show them a loop they could use for training. The clubs hill climb champion took them on a loop that included the hill he had won his title on. He said one minute he was out the front leading them, really pushing it and in the next he was blown out the back having been overtaken by everyone. Each person gliding past effortlessly on their big chainrings deep in conversation0
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RICHYBOYcp wrote:No mate, gotta disagree.....I think Robbie, Eric Zabel..etc would totally destroy most pro riders in the UK....different level altogether....
I remember witnessing Vinorokouv training on Alpe De Huez for the time trial in 2004....Jesus H christ...he was going faster up it than I was going down?....totally diifferent level altogether........he made the likes of Russel Downing seem a mere amateur....I've never ever seen such a display of athleticness....he was gone before I got my camera out....and as I said to my brother at the time "Can you beleive Armstrong will beat him with at least 2 mins?"....it really was a sobering moment.....Vino is by a million miles the strongest guy I've ever personally witnessed...he made Jebb seem like a tortoise....and to think the big boys even bettered that was terrifying?
Vinokourov didn't get anywhere near the 2004 Tour as he crashed a while before it and was injured. Then again maybe you saw him in May or something.Le Blaireau (1)0 -
DaveyL wrote:RICHYBOYcp wrote:No mate, gotta disagree.....I think Robbie, Eric Zabel..etc would totally destroy most pro riders in the UK....different level altogether....
I remember witnessing Vinorokouv training on Alpe De Huez for the time trial in 2004....Jesus H christ...he was going faster up it than I was going down?....totally diifferent level altogether........he made the likes of Russel Downing seem a mere amateur....I've never ever seen such a display of athleticness....he was gone before I got my camera out....and as I said to my brother at the time "Can you beleive Armstrong will beat him with at least 2 mins?"....it really was a sobering moment.....Vino is by a million miles the strongest guy I've ever personally witnessed...he made Jebb seem like a tortoise....and to think the big boys even bettered that was terrifying?
Vinokourov didn't get anywhere near the 2004 Tour as he crashed a while before it and was injured. Then again maybe you saw him in May or something.
Yeah I was out late May, the whole CSC and Telecom Teams were out practising on the Alpe...also seen Ullrich and Kloden coming up...but I reckon they were sussing the climb out as they were just cruising...where Vino was just giving it his all...very very scary the speed the fella was going....I don't think I'll ever see anything like that again....
Again, no disrespect to our premier lads at all.....its just that TDF riders are the cream of the planet....and if Malcolm Elliot can still cause probs with the UK guys then I just know they are not of the same standard...
Where have we went with this thread...enough of me babbling....0 -
"Sussing the climb out"??? I'll save them the bother - f. steep, f. steep, hairpin, steep, hairpin, steep, hairpin, church, slightly less steep, hairpin, steep, hairpin, etc. etc.
We're on page 6 - we're allowed to go a bit off-topic now!Le Blaireau (1)0 -
These guys are the elite of the elite. Only a few riders from Britain can make it as pros, and then you need to be amongst the best to be a candidate as a grand tour contender. Then add on an extra 5-10% in power - a massive advantage - thanks to EPO and blood doping.brucey72 wrote:I recall a story from the paper just before the TDF was in London last year. . . . A local cycling club was approached by the Astana team to show them a loop they could use for training. The clubs hill climb champion took them on a loop that included the hill he had won his title on. He said one minute he was out the front leading them, really pushing it and in the next he was blown out the back having been overtaken by everyone. Each person gliding past effortlessly on their big chainrings deep in conversation0 -
Tom Butcher wrote:So basically nobody on here treats them as races or thinks they are races but there is a bunch of people out there who do. Or maybe the fact none of us ride them like a race just reflects the fact that the vast majority of competitors don't either. Strange race where so few of the competitors are racing.
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andy-wrx, ken night and the others don't disagree with you Tom ... but the point precisely is that a minority of people treat it as a race and ride recklessly to go as fast as possible. I've seen it on almost every sportif I've ridden in the UK. It's a minority of course, but even if only 5% of people do you it you potentially have a problem..0
