London Dynamo in Richmond Park - please be more considerate
Comments
-
Kléber wrote:Remember, DYNAMITE!, that the thread was started by someone else knocked by your club mates
No it wasn't. The person who started this thread did not say he was hit.Kléber wrote:others then said they'd had the same experience.
No they didn't. Only one person said he was hit. And I think I've demonstrated how much you can trust that assertion.Kléber wrote:All this before the flame war with Gavin Gilbert started.
No, it wasn't a flame war. As I've already explained, only one side was unreasonably angry, and it wasn't me.Kléber wrote:Try to keep the provocative comments down ("angry white clowns" etc)
I never called anyone an "angry white clown", which is just gibberish.Kléber wrote:and to stop making this a club vs club debate (talk of rankings, membership levels).
There is no more debate between me and Gavin Herbert. I made that clear in my last post.Kléber wrote:Why not swap phone numbers and arrange to meet for a beer. I doubt GG wants to approach you surrounded by your club mates but an evening in a pub or just a chat on the phone might be good, no?
We don't bite, Kleb. And he knows where we are.
Next time (although I hope there won't be a next time) please try to read before responding.0 -
God I'm glad I don't live in London anymore :roll:0
-
DYNAMITE! wrote:No, it wasn't a flame war. As I've already explained, only one side was unreasonably angry, and it wasn't me.
Regardless of what you call it, you're hardly generating good PR for your club.DYNAMITE! wrote:Kléber wrote:Try to keep the provocative comments down ("angry white clowns" etc)
I never called anyone an "angry white clown", which is just gibberish.
I think Kléber was paraphrasing your "angry clown in a white jersey" comment:-DYNAMITE! wrote:But I thank you for your honesty, because at least I now have something to show the police should one of our members ever be walloped by an angry clown in a white jersey with a distinctive yellow stripe.--
If I had a baby elephant signature, I\'d use that.0 -
chriskempton wrote:God I'm glad I don't live in London anymore :roll:
I'm glad I don't live there but am not at all glad I'm having to go back.
Oh well, just have to find some of those lanes in Surrey :P ....any particular clubs that ride out from Kingston area that go down that way? I know of Kingston Wheelers for one.'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....0 -
Greenbank wrote:Many of the problems stem from the differences between a solo rider with no club riding experience and a bunch of experienced club riders.
Club riders should remember that many other riders on the road:
* will have no idea what "rider left" or any of the other calls mean. You may as well be shouting "argle bargle" at them.
* may be spooked/annoyed when something they don't understand is shouted at them
* have no experience of riding in close formation. They expect at least a couple of feet space to their right when being passed. Club riders often forget this and pass much closer.
Similiar. The issue I've had (not every time to be fair) is dymano often overtake too close and cut back in too quick for slower types (like the OP and me) to be comfortable with. How about if LD group leaders told their bunch to give cyclists as much room as they'd want from an overtaking car :?:0 -
Kleber - I'd suggest changing the "rider left" shout
I understand your point but "rider left! car up! car back!" etc are all widely understood commands used by every club run in the country and even abroad. They're short and easily understood in a fast-moving bunch and tell the group there is something on the left to be avoided / moved round. For safety's sake it is important that the warnings are quick and easy to understand.Try to keep the provocative comments down ("angry white clowns" etc) and to stop making this a club vs club debate (talk of rankings, membership levels)
I agree but Dynamo are being pretty relentlessly attacked on this forum with some seriously aggressive statements like those from Gavin. Both Dynamite! and I and are trying both to respond constructively as well as to try to rebut some really quite bonkers (!) posts that seem to see the club as a combination of Opus Dei, the Ku Klux Klan and Wacky Races!
For the record the club does have some outstanding elite and 1st Cat racers - see here:
http://www.britishcycling.org.uk/web/si ... sClubs.asp
It comes out about 16th nationally, one of the higher mass-membership, local amateur clubs around. It has quite deliberately not changed itself into an elite, restricted membership club. There are equally a lot / majority of lardy sportive riding perpetual 4th cats like me as well as time-triallists, MTB, cyclocross riders... Membership is open to all and anyone can sign up on the web. Despite Gavin's comments, Dynamo organise races at Chertsey for beginners, Hillingdon and Surrey and give a lot back to the sport.
I have met some of the nicest and gentlest people I know in the club, particularly the committee of relative saints that give up a lot of their time to run it for our benefit. Members are anything from carpenters, antarctic explorers, bankers and teachers and I have never heard any of them attack any other club or be anything welcoming to new members.
There have been a lot of chippy and aggressive posts on this forum that say more about an apparent latent aggression or inferiority complex in the poster that they do about the club. The comments here about overtaking have clearly been taken on board but if Gavin or others are still bothered by Dynamo's group riding then why not just avoid Richmond Park between 8.30 and 9.30 on Saturday mornings? That would still leave 167 hours of Dynamo-free park riding each week.0 -
sylvanus wrote:I have met some of the nicest and gentlest people I know in the club, particularly the committee of relative saints that give up a lot of their time to run it for our benefit.
No-one doubts this. The trouble is, when a large group engage in an adrenalin-inducing sport, competitiveness ensues, and I can easily understand how this transmits itself to "outsiders" as aggression, whether actual or perceived. I'm sure you won't deny this. As you are in a shared-use public facility the onus is firmly on you to control this.
As none of you members here have addressed my earlier point maybe you can help - are Dynamo Saturday rides immune to the speed limit, and consequential fines which others have apparently had? Dynamite says you hold regular meetings with the parks police - surely this issue has arisen.
a serious case of small cogs0 -
No the ride has to stick to the speed limits like everyone else, frustrating though that can be at times and largely do so whenever I've been there. I'm sure that when descending hills the speed can tick up slightly but in general the speed limits are fairly closely observed. You may get the impression that the groups are riding fast but remember that they have the relative advantage of drafting and the aim is to practice group riding skills rather than eyeballs out speed-riding.Out of courtesy / safety, they won't hang around when overtaking another rider. A rough but sustained 20mph is relatively fast compared to what most single riders will be able to achieve when taking the full force of the wind on their own on the flat / uphill.
The club has also agreed informally to limit groups to a starting maximum of eight riders although inevitably some switch or tag on so that group size can vary slightly. We're also asked never to overtake cars on the ride since that seems to be a particular source of angst to motorists.
As Dynamite mentioned both Dynamo and Kingston Wheelers send a rep to liaise at park meetings and try to represent the interests of all training cyclists in the park. The relationship with the police and park authorities is pretty friendly and constructive.
Hope that helps! 0 -
Oh my god. Completely and utterly disregarding the context and content of this thread for a second, new poster DYNAMITE! comes over as an absolute tool!
Get off your high horse, you smug, abusive idiot, and go apologise to your club buddies for doing far more damage to their rep than any number of aggressive overtakings has.
:roll:0 -
Get off your high horse, you smug, abusive idiot, and go apologise to your club buddies for doing far more damage to their rep than any number of aggressive overtakings has
I'm not sure thats fair. Dynamite! is one of the saintly few that devotes / invests a huge amount of his time to helping the club run smoothly and so I can entirely respect the fact that some of the more aggressive and critical posts here rile him. Without him we would have a far less fun, friendly and entertaining club - much of the soul of it would be gone! He was simply responding to some very abusive, even threatening posts and understandably found they got up his nose. I think he / we has every reason to feel seriously miffed that some forum members here seem to feel that it is justified to hurl around unpleasant abuse, even "mis-statements" of fact about London Dynamo. The club is made up of human beings, not some force of emotionless aliens!
We're not dim and its clear that a lot of the abuse is a sign of the club's relative success but I'd be unhappy if I thought that new members might be put off by the false image that Gavin and others have portrayed over many posts. You should check his other postings and see that he seems to have a relative obsession with the subject of LD. Until now most club members have ignored some of the taunting on this forum, partly because they come here seldom, but I think the time to answer it and quietly encourge more responsible and thoughtful posting. We really would just like to be friends with everyone and encourage more people to get out and enjoy their cycling, regardless of which club they belong to!
0 -
-
chriskempton wrote:God I'm glad I don't live in London anymore :roll:
Aye, makes me glad I live in the same neck of the woods as you. Although I'm quite tempted to visit Richmond Park to see what it's like as I've heard so much about it on Bikeradar. There's only so much trundling along hundreds of miles of quiet roads with great scenery, great climbs, picturesque villages and friendly people you can take before it gets a bit boring!0 -
This could make quite a good sport:
reckless lycra louts tearing around the local park on eye-wateringly expensive bikes, and swinging handbags at each other.
"move over, you oaf, can't you see I'm wearing Rapha?!"
will they show it on Eurosport?0 -
"Good PR"? It wasn't meant to be. PR, good or bad, is the tool of mendacity. I just wanted to tell the truth about Dynamo and what we do. Nothing more, nothing less.Greenbank wrote:you're hardly generating good PR for your club.
Takes one to know one, ducky. As for you comparing Dynamo to Festina, I'm glad you have kept a sense of proportion about all this.biondino wrote:you smug, abusive idiot
Many thanks to Sylvanus for his kind words and to all the other 'Mos who showed that we're actually a decent bunch of people. I shall now graciously bow out of this thread. My work here is done.
Toodle pip!0 -
sylvanus wrote:A recent "official" posting on the Dynamo forum has taken your views on board and asks:1. Give other cyclists bags of room, and do not cut in sharply after you have overtaken.
2. When shouting "RIDER LEFT", do so from some way back, and in the most unthreatening way possible (v difficult I know when you have to shout). It is clear that many cyclists think we are effectively saying "OUT THE WAY, COMING THROUGH YOU SLOWCOACH", and not shouting what is effectively a safety warning for our benefit.
3. So after you've frightened the living daylights out of a fellow cyclist by shouting at him, the least you can do is give them loads of room and greet them. "Morning" or "Hiya" will do. Perhaps a waved (not fingers please) acknowledgement?
Thanks for that info Sylvanus. In that case this stink has been worthwhile (or at least the OP has gotten what he was asking for). The coming weeks and months will show if it sinks in, and I hope so for the sake of all the sports cyclists that use the Park.
In an attempt to net this out to something positive, Hillingdon is there guys, it's far better suited to drilling your 3/4's into a workable road formation. It's the way the Willesden taught me to ride, and it's what the Archer are doing with our new recruits.
I'll let it lay there. See you on the road boys
0 -
Greenbank wrote:Club riders should remember that many other riders on the road:
* will have no idea what "rider left" or any of the other calls mean. You may as well be shouting "argle bargle" at them.
* may be spooked/annoyed when something they don't understand is shouted at them
* have no experience of riding in close formation. They expect at least a couple of feet space to their right when being passed. Club riders often forget this and pass much closer.
It's not the fault of the non-experienced rider that they don't understand the terminology or aren't used to riding closely. Thinking that it's their fault for being inexperienced is one of the main reasons that club cyclists can come over as arrogant c*cks.
Also, from Stephenb
"Similiar. The issue I've had (not every time to be fair) is dymano often overtake too close and cut back in too quick for slower types (like the OP and me) to be comfortable with. How about if LD group leaders told their bunch to give cyclists as much room as they'd want from an overtaking car "
And kleber,
"I'd suggest changing the "rider left" shout as it might be the rider in front as seen you coming and think's he's being told to move further to the left. "Group right" might help or just use hand signals. "
Given the number of remarks about these sorts of things, I thought I'd add to some previous posts, particular from sylvanus, markd, pinkbikini etc.
We've acknowledged in a few posts on bikeradar as well as on our own forum that shouting (anything) when closely approaching (a) slower cyclist(s) might make them jump and annoy them. The "group right" suggestion would be fine if the main aim was to warn the cylist ahead. However, the principal aim is to inform the group, so they look up and prepare to move out. It may be, however, that we should consider additionally warning the cyclist, when close enough for them to hear (but not too close). I fear, however, whatever we say risks being taken the wrong way or at least being misunderstood (getting the volume right is always going to be difficult). So I think in the end, as I've mentioned before, we just have to make sure, as far as possible, that we don't shout too loudly or too near the cyclist ahead.
We've also acknowledged that at times group riders don't give overtaken cyclists enough room. I've seen this happen, so I'm not surprised it's commented on, and some of us will call "give him/her room" and then apologise, since it is bound to happen from time to time with the best will in the world. We will just keep reminding everyone on the forum and before the ride and make it as rare as possible. I think the 'overtaken car' comparison might be helpful in the sense of exaggerating to make a point, but it's safest not to cross over to the other side of the road, and there is always room for 3 cyclists abreast. However, if we overtake a pair or another group, we really need to single out on the narrowest bits, which I think has also been mentioned elsewhere.
Since communication of incidents has to be best, and it may feel easier to do this on bikeradar than in person, I am happy to be pm'd with suggestions/incidents, and promise to pass the constructive/significant ones on to the saturday ride organiser who does not frequent these parts.
A final personal remark to anyone who's still reading(!). I've only been on this forum for a year, but I'm disappointed by how quickly people resort to abuse, in a way that they wouldn't in person. You might all be saying "duhh, of course, this is standard in cyberspace", but it's still sad. In most other respects the forum is a friendly, helpful, practical, encouraging, informative space.
Nick Dove
PS To be clear about the posting lifted from the Dynamo forum reminding riders about the above issues, this was placed in response to posts by RPandy, psychlist and Guinea as these were constructive and mostly not abusive (though 'pro-racing wannabees' comes close :shock: ), the Saturday ride organiser having been informed about them.0 -
RedGreenBaron wrote:The "group right" suggestion would be fine if the main aim was to warn the cylist ahead. However, the principal aim is to inform the group, so they look up and prepare to move out.
You can't live with just hand signals? Surely verbal communication is only really necessary if you are trying to warn riders ahead of you in the group?0 -
Some calmer words on here from most, nice to see. Thanks to Sylvanus and RedGreenBaron for explaining things. As did other clubmates earlier in this thread, until Dynamite came along to stir the pot! Dynamite!, you have a unique sense of humour, some might not get this and instead read your words as defensive and condescending, not funny. Taking me to task for the difference between 'white clown' and 'clown in white', well I can laugh but the joke's on you.
On riding, like I say, maybe some nervous and sincere riders are not versed in the language of the bunch and take your "rider left" warning as an order directed at them and try to act on it, hugging the verge and wobbling. This might not be the case for all, could just be a lack of room from overtaking or just nervous riders who cause themselves problems. I'd hope as fellow cyclists we could work this out over a beer or coffee.0 -
I think Kleber is right. I have been using Richmond Park for years now and can think of once, maybe twice, when the Dynamo have cut in too quickly. To be honest this may not even have been the club riders but hangers on the back. Whilst its not pleasant I fail to see why everyone is getting so worked up about it.
This thread seems to have become more of an opportunity to have a cheap shot at the Dynamo's ability when it appears to be a club which welcomes all abilities.
Everyone cycles for their own reasons and personal goals- live and let live.0 -
Fair suggestion reddragon.redddraggon wrote:[You can't live with just hand signals? Surely verbal communication is only really necessary if you are trying to warn riders ahead of you in the group?
Reasons, IMHO: 1) getting into good habits of calling out a number of things eg "holes", "clear" at junctions, "slowing" etc., some of which are times when 2 hands are safer on the bars; 2) belt and braces
3) gets the message down the line quicker than hands.0 -
A few words from a hopefully impartial voice.
If LD are liaising with all of the local authorities and doing their utmost to pass on all criticism, then I don't really see what more they can do.
Having an open membership policy is a necessity if we're to allow an inclusive culture to blossom, however A-holes do end up then joining your club, unavoidable but true, especially if your membership is large, fact of life, sorry guys, you statistically DO have them in your club.
I'd like to take one comment to task, can't remember who said it (I'm to tired of this thread to go back and find it, but the gist was that all clubs shout "cyclist left" when about to pass a slower rider), I've ridden with many different clubs over the years and never heard the shout "cyclist left", if there's a slower cyclist coming up, groups I've been in have given the usual "going out round something" hand signal, left arm behind the back pointing right. It's safe and can be done well in advance of overtaking something. No need to shout anything as far as I'm concerned (If you feel it's unsafe then perhaps you're all riding too close to each other on what are still public roads, park or not.)
Finally, Dynamos, I do think you have a reputation problem, there was a commuter thread a while back complaining about the number of RLJers in Dynamo club kit. It might be worth impressing the need to obey the laws of the road upon your members whilst wearing club kit. If they want to continue flouting the law, do it in a different kit if they must. Personally when I wear my club kit I'm proud to do so and check myself before shouting at people, or the odd RLJ, I am representing my club after all.
I hope you find this comment constructive, and frankly all clubs could do with taking this last point seriously.
Enjoy your riding folks, that's why we do it."Impressive break"
"Thanks...
...I can taste blood"0 -
Serious question - rather than shouting anything, how about using bells? The ting-aling type could not be construed as threatening or abusive, and would alert the rider being overtaken and those further back in the peloton.
Then overtake giving as wide a berth as you would regard as safe were a car overtaking you - for example the 1.5m stipulated by law on the continent. If you can't do this then slow down and wait until you can.Bulbous also tapered0 -
If I was riding along, and a group of faster cyclists were approaching me from behind while ringing a bell, I'd expect them to be telling me to get out of their way.NlEDERMEYER wrote:Serious question - rather than shouting anything, how about using bells? The ting-aling type could not be construed as threatening or abusive, and would alert the rider being overtaken and those further back in the peloton.0 -
Serious question - rather than shouting anything, how about using bells?
I enjoyed the earlier "handbagging" post by Pneumatic and I could see that bells would add to the fun. We could hang shopping baskets to our handlebars and add a whole new middle-aged camp dimension to our reputation! I do have a bell on my winter / hack bike to warn pedestrians etc in central London. Advantage is a non-threatening announcment etc and the disadvantage is getting ribbed by almost every other roadie I meet!
Joking aside I think we're best off sticking to the existing warning hand-signals / shouts combined with enough room and a cheery hello as we pass.0 -
I've been quietly watching from the back on this one, but just want to say a couple of things.
Firstly, you could go around forever determining the 'best method' of making a group aware of a slower rider ahead - it's all about perception. Some slower riders might not react badly to shouts or bell rings at all whilst others will. It's like choosing one bike over another: you probably love yours whilst someone else might think it's hideous (ok, a stretched comparison, but you get my point).
Secondly, I want to start riding with a club, and probably will ride with Kingston Wheelers before LD... but all this thread has made me want to do is ride with Dynamo, just to work all this out for myself.
The passion of those defending LD is stronger than those dishing out the grief. I'm not pointing any fingers and I'm not going to quote anyone, please just realise that it's never going to be possible for every member of a club of 400+ to be perfect.0 -
Oh well, just have to find some of those lanes in Surrey....any particular clubs that ride out from Kingston area that go down that way? I know of Kingston Wheelers for one.
Dare I suggest the London Dynamo Sunday rides?
Fast - 8am meet Richmond Park, Kingston Gate
Slow - 9am meet Hampton Court Bridge0 -
The original complaint from RPAndy is that he feels annoyed at the behaviour of London Dynamo in the park, surely a simple answer would to be to ride in the opposite direction to the Dynamo peloton?0
-
rjeffroy wrote:Oh well, just have to find some of those lanes in Surrey....any particular clubs that ride out from Kingston area that go down that way? I know of Kingston Wheelers for one.
Dare I suggest the London Dynamo Sunday rides?
Fast - 8am meet Richmond Park, Kingston Gate
Slow - 9am meet Hampton Court Bridge
How fast is fast and over what distance?
How slow is slow ditto?'Twas Mulga Bill, from Eaglehawk, that caught the cycling craze....0 -
45 - 55 miles usually and about 1200m of climbing.
Fast ride can be testing in summer but you'll never be abandoned. I'm an overweight 4th cat and I do the fast ride when I'm feeling really fit or want to be back in London before noon.
Slow ride has more riders (usually 15 - 20+) and a wider range of ability. If you've never riden with them before then start with the slow ride and see how you go. My first slow ride was done on a steel audax bike complete with luggage rack whilst still smoking 40 a day and I lived although I spent much of the rest of the afternoon dribbling on the sofa. They're a very nice bunch of people but make sure you introduce yourself to the ride leader so they know to look out for you if necessary. They pride themselves on never leaving anyone behind so you should be fine if you can ride that sort of distance unaccompanied then in a group it should be a breeze.
Details here (scroll down for the rides):
http://www.londondynamo.co.uk/faq.html
Edit - Should also say that Kingston Wheelers has a large Sunday 9am ride which seems often to slip into ability groups. I've never done it but I hear very good things about it from many and it seems to work well for an even wider range. Details here:
http://www.kingstonwheelers.com/clubrun.shtml
I'll let Gavin tell you about Archer RC club runs which (joking aside) I'm sure are terrific! 0 -
sylvanus wrote:I'll let Gavin tell you about Archer RC club runs which (joking aside) I'm sure are terrific!
One fecking muppet riding solo in the rain last weekend. Mind you, there was no signs of life when I passed the West London Massives meeting point either. What's happened to the 'hardmen'? Cycling has become so soddin' middle class and mimsey. Nobody's prepared to have a fist-fight anymore.... 0
