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Yep need help to go Ti or CF on new bike.

Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
edited October 2008 in Workshop
Sorry to bring this up.

I am fairly new to road riding but have been MTBing on/off since late 80's. I have got a Felt F65 triple which I am pleased with. But I am 85 - 90 kgs and tend to stick to the narrow roads so the felt is taking a pounding and would love to link up rides using bridal ways. Love the speed of a road bike so don't want to revert to semi slicks on the hard tail MTB. Currently ride 30+ 3 to 5 times a week. Hoping to up that to a couple of 50+ with the odd 75 - 100 when legs/lungs are up to it.

Thinking about a cyclocross bike and have c.2K to spend (don't tell the wife). Have been to many LBS shops around the SE asking for advice but seem to get a different answer depending on what bikes they sell. Supprise supprise. Checked out forums reviews etc but cannot find recent augument on pros cons of each material.

I have rode neither yet but hope to get to London show on 9th. Has anyone got advice struggling to make a decesion.

looking at
Scot Addict CX
Litespeed Crosser
VN Amazon cross
Ridley X fire/night
Kona Major Jake (not sure if going to be harsh ride)

Any others I should look at.

Appreciate any and all help. :shock:
Willier mortirillo cross
Confirmed bike addict.

Intense 5.5 EVP
Yeti 575
On one inbred
Felt F65
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Posts

  • maddog 2maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    ti crosser must be a good bet

    I've got an Airborne Carpe Diem - the older version of the VN Amazon - and it's excellent. With the light wheels it's a good road/sportive bike - light, comfy, very nice ride. Yet with winter wheels it will take a battering on tracks and the like.

    I think for the money it's a very strong option. Also disc compatible if you want to go that route.

    I wouldn't go back to alu now 8)
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Nice dilemma to have

    A cross bike might be a bit close in style to your MtBs, but the fact remains they are the most capable alll rounders. Just change the knobblies/thick tyres for a pr of 23s and you're off

    I can recommend the Amazon. I have the predecessor. It's a fantastic supple ride and the bike (I have seven to choose from) I reach for when I want to have fun. It's no disgrace on sportives and does trails too

    A few of us on here have crossers with discs which seems to be a sensible way to go, but again, close to what you have already

    Here is an inspirational bike
    http://www.evertibikes.com/odyssey.htm

    and mine ebayjan08093.jpg
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    maddog 2 wrote:
    ti crosser must be a good bet

    I've got an Airborne Carpe Diem - the older version of the VN Amazon -
    .......the usual suspects/proponents out early, and in force. Monty Dog will be along in a minute :D
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • GrifcpGrifcp Posts: 283
    Oh I like that Ken.....very nice. What forks and tyres have you got there?
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Grifcp wrote:
    Oh I like that Ken.....very nice. What forks and tyres have you got there?

    the forks are Kinesis prototypes-they are still working on the production, so I gather not available yet

    there are a couple of production forks in the US with disc tabs, AFAICR, winwood duallist, (try googling jensen bikes or similar or searching for an earlier thread on this forum, someone did a really good survey on all the forks available with disc tabs. Bontrager were really unhelpful-it's their forks on the Everti bike)

    I have also seen some on ebay, sold by Trigon, make sure the axle to crown length is right or you'll alter the geometry of your bike

    The tyres in the pic are Schwalbe CX Comp 35s
    http://www.schwalbe.co.uk/c2-1087-schwa ... -comp.html
    basic and cheap

    I also use Racing Ralphs -35s again
    http://www.schwalbe.co.uk/c2-1032-schwa ... ralph.html

    Most of the time I run Gatorskin 28s, for commuting etc, and for the odd sportive, I have run Schwalbe Rain23s-a really great, grippy comfy, fast and much undersung tyre
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • maddog 2maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    Ken Night wrote:
    have also seen some on ebay, sold by Trigon, make sure the axle to crown length is right or you'll alter the geometry of your bike

    Ken , you're right, Trigon do a really nice disc-only full carbon fork, so I emailed a Taiwanese seller on ebay to find out the crown-to-axle and she said 390mm. Great, so I ordered one. (About 145 delivered)

    When it came it was really really nice - light, full carbon but the length was 420mm! How very annoying. Anyway, I sent it back as 420 is too long for me. Shame.

    If they decide to build one with a C2A of 395-400mm I'll have one in a flash.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12585195

    Just adding something to the mix.....
    jedster wrote:
    Just off to contemplate my own mortality and inevitable descent into decrepedness.
    FCN 3 or 4 on road depending on clothing
    FCN 8 off road because I'm too old to go racing around.
  • DavidBelcherDavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    Ken Night wrote:
    Grifcp wrote:
    Oh I like that Ken.....very nice. What forks and tyres have you got there?

    the forks are Kinesis prototypes-they are still working on the production, so I gather not available yet

    Speaking of Kinesis, don't forget the carbon fibre version of the Crosslight; carbon tubes bonded into carbon lugs from memory and unlike the alloy Crosslights, handmade in Italy as Kinesis apparently - and surprisingly in this day and age - couldn't find a Far Eastern builder who could do the job they were after.

    Nice retro-ish paint job on that Singular, but as with the Amazon/Carpe Diem and the Specialized Tricross, am suspicious of anything claiming to be a 'cross bike which has either (a) eyes for guards, (b) rack mounts or (c) 135mm rear end spacing. As for disc brakes, they do mean a shallower dishing on the back wheel, tend to be aimed at folk running Shimano (not exclusively though as Ken's photo proves), and aren't legal for top-ranking 'cross races (i.e. National Trophy, Nationals, Worlds). Those comments are just me being pedantic, though! :wink:

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Good observations Dave (here in the South West the league turns a blind eye to crossers with discs, though I suspect if I was in the medals as opposed to the also rans, there might be a more rigorous line)

    You're right too, about the CD/Amazon or Tricross not being "proper" cross bikes. (IIRC there was a thread over a year ago, where one poster took a very strident line about a bike not being for cross if it had bottle bosses, much less eyes for 'guards)

    for the OP....There exist then, bikes which are designed as capable all rounders, which can also be used for cross (great fun btw). Several manufacturers have them.
    You could also look at some touring type bikes-have the large clearances, often have canti brakes, and all the braze ons

    As for the frame material, CF is good, light and responsive. I haven't got one, because I can't stand the thought the frame getting a hole in, if it drops against a lampost or whatever. You shouldn't discount steel though-great ride and reasonably cheap, and aluminium

    Accepting you get a cheaper cross bike, why not get a road bike as well? :twisted:

    The Focus cross bikes at Wiggle look terrific value-in Aluminium though. If you are always going to run large tyres, the stiffness of Aluminium isn't such an issue as it is on race bikes on which you ride all day on skinny tyres
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • GrifcpGrifcp Posts: 283
    Apologies to the OP if I'm being a butinski here, but I think its relevant....whats the deal with the brakes on these types of bikes? I'm a bit torn....thinking possibly an Amazon with discs (road bike is a Zephyr so I like VN) or maybe an uncle john with cantis, and the focus is a possibility, but I'd like to build something up myself as a all rounder.

    I've had hydro discs on my Mtb which were superb, I have duel pivots on my road bike with cool stops, which are also superb, but I've never had canti's. I've read alot of people dissing them big time. Would a set of the new Tektro 520 cantis with Kool stops be powerful enough for use on the road as well as off?
  • DavidBelcherDavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    Ken Night wrote:
    As for the frame material, CF is good, light and responsive. I haven't got one, because I can't stand the thought the frame getting a hole in, if it drops against a lampost or whatever. You shouldn't discount steel though-great ride and reasonably cheap, and aluminium

    Currently own a steel 'cross bike with a CF fork and no complaints about the durability of with either frame or fork so far (4 years old now and was already 2nd hand when I bought it!). Don't know if I'd want to risk an all-carbon job for off-roading though; forks on their own are relatively cheap to replace if things go pear-shaped, but the whole lot.... :shock:

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Grifcp wrote:
    Apologies to the OP if I'm being a butinski here, but I think its relevant....whats the deal with the brakes on these types of bikes? I'm a bit torn....thinking possibly an Amazon with discs (road bike is a Zephyr so I like VN) or maybe an uncle john with cantis, and the focus is a possibility, but I'd like to build something up myself as a all rounder.

    I've had hydro discs on my Mtb which were superb, I have duel pivots on my road bike with cool stops, which are also superb, but I've never had canti's. I've read alot of people dissing them big time. Would a set of the new Tektro 520 cantis with Kool stops be powerful enough for use on the road as well as off?

    (I declare myself as a supporter of discs on road bikes)

    Have a look at some of the debates here
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... isc+brakes

    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopi ... isc+brakes

    To sum up

    Wet and muddy stopping
    Better all round stopping (brake later)
    No rim wear
    Less cleaning
    Look great

    Against
    Weight
    Can be expensive (esp for a Campag user)
    Not many people do it (yet)
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • GrifcpGrifcp Posts: 283
    Interesting, thanks Ken...do you get any disc rub in normal riding?
  • maddog 2maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    there are also less disc-ready carbon forks out there

    WHY DOESN'T SOMEBODY CORNER THE MARKET !

    The Bonty Satellite Elite had the potential but it's disappeared into the undergrowth these days.
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Grifcp wrote:
    Interesting, thanks Ken...do you get any disc rub in normal riding?

    Good question

    I don't use the barrel adjuster on the BB7s I have, and set the calipers using the adjust knobs on each side of the unit

    If I'm really honking, sometimes I get a bit of disc rub at the rear, but I put that down to the springy frame.

    The front brake is very positive, as is the back, but with more cable pulled to get there

    I'm a Campag user, and I do wonder if STIs or the SRAM double tap levers pull just that bit more cable
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
    Thanks for the help.

    I always liked the VN Amazon but some LBS said they were poor quality cheap bikes and made with lower quality Ti. But they all seem to be made from 3/2.5 and just the butting/shape changes with company. Is th VN fairly stiff around the BB as I am a svelt 90 kgs and not the gentelest of riders. So the wife says! :shock:

    I always have had suspected CF for its toughness in impact type incidents.

    salsarider79 like the bike but a bit close to my On One inbred. Need something speedy for the road (plus gears)

    Ken/Maddog like the bikes. Not sure if I need the disc brakes (may come to regret this on butser hill) a good set of cantis should be adequate.

    Steel may be an option tho On One is steel and I would like to try other material shiny bike type stuff.

    Anyone know about the litespeed CX or Seven Mudhoney (they are a bit more expensive and is this worth it above the VN Amazon CX)
    Confirmed bike addict.

    Intense 5.5 EVP
    Yeti 575
    On one inbred
    Felt F65
  • maddog 2maddog 2 Posts: 8,114
    there's nothing amiss in the quality of my Airborne CD. Welds are excellent, design is well thought out, and the tubeset is well engineered. I'd take this with a pinch of salt if I were you...
    Facts are meaningless, you can use facts to prove anything that's remotely true! - Homer
  • Barrie_GBarrie_G Posts: 479
    I don't know how you feel about ordering from the States or what the exchange rate is like at the moment but one of these might be worth a look http://www.evertibikes.com/cyclo%20cross.htm
  • andypandyp Posts: 8,365
    Barrie_G wrote:
    I don't know how you feel about ordering from the States or what the exchange rate is like at the moment but one of these might be worth a look http://www.evertibikes.com/cyclo%20cross.htm
    Ken linked to them in the first page! And they are based in Vancouver which, last time I checked, was in Canada.
  • Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
    Just looked at the evertinikes. Nice. Don't know about the whole import thing. Bought my Intense from US without riding it and like it but would have preferd the Turner 5 spot which I rode in Moab and really liked so don't want to do the same again.

    That said not many shops carry these bikes for you to ride!

    I am leaning towards the VN or Litespeed. VN is a little cheaper and I know I can get them from bike hut but would prefer to trade with LBS.

    Also the VN warranty sounds good but I suppose it is whether they stand by that.
    Confirmed bike addict.

    Intense 5.5 EVP
    Yeti 575
    On one inbred
    Felt F65
  • DavidBelcherDavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    Woody68 wrote:

    salsarider79 like the bike but a bit close to my On One inbred. Need something speedy for the road (plus gears)

    Anyone know about the litespeed CX or Seven Mudhoney (they are a bit more expensive and is this worth it above the VN Amazon CX)

    Th Singular frame that salsarider79 mentioned will take gears; though the one in the photos is a single-speed job, a closer look shows that there is a mech hanger on the r/h rear dropout.
    As for US-built titanium, if you're happy to go into the Litespeed/Seven price bracket, you might also want to think about the Independent Fabrication Planet Cross (see http://www.ifbikes.com/frames2/tiplanetcross.shtml; the steel version of this frame has won a few medals so has a sound pedigree), but I don't know how easy they are to get hold of on this side of the Atlantic.

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • GrifcpGrifcp Posts: 283
    That IF is rather gorgeous David.....I won't bother looking up the price :lol: .

    Woody.....Jan-Willem Sintnicolaas has an excellent reputation for standing by his products, but being a one man band, my only concern when I bought my Zephyr was weather he will be around in future in order to stand by it!!! That said, any size company can go bust.

    Personally I wouldn't touch a modern Litespeed with a barge pole, I assume the LBS you spoke too about VN did not stock them?
  • giant_mangiant_man Posts: 6,890
    Woody68 wrote:

    salsarider79 like the bike but a bit close to my On One inbred. Need something speedy for the road (plus gears)

    Anyone know about the litespeed CX or Seven Mudhoney (they are a bit more expensive and is this worth it above the VN Amazon CX)

    Th Singular frame that salsarider79 mentioned will take gears; though the one in the photos is a single-speed job, a closer look shows that there is a mech hanger on the r/h rear dropout.
    As for US-built titanium, if you're happy to go into the Litespeed/Seven price bracket, you might also want to think about the Independent Fabrication Planet Cross (see http://www.ifbikes.com/frames2/tiplanetcross.shtml; the steel version of this frame has won a few medals so has a sound pedigree), but I don't know how easy they are to get hold of on this side of the Atlantic.

    David

    Mosquito Bikes in London stock IF frames
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Grifcp wrote:
    That IF is rather gorgeous David.....I won't bother looking up the price :lol: .

    Yes, stunning-and with so many options too
    Grifcp wrote:
    Woody.....Jan-Willem Sintnicolaas has an excellent reputation for standing by his products, but being a one man band, my only concern when I bought my Zephyr was weather he will be around in future in order to stand by it!!! That said, any size company can go bust.

    J-W vN was professional and businesslike when I couldn't get on with the original forks that came with my CD, even though Airborn had ceased to be at that stage

    I believe they will continue the original Airborne g'tee for a total of five years too

    You judge a man by his actions
    Grifcp wrote:

    Personally I wouldn't touch a modern Litespeed with a barge pole,

    Agree (as the owner of a 1999 Litespeed Classic)
    Grifcp wrote:
    I assume the LBS you spoke too about VN did not stock them?

    a most likely scenario, but not unexpected or inexplicable

    FWIW, I've seen the Amazon next to my CD and would say that its really well made and slightly beefed up-the chainstays in particular. That should sort out the disc rub.
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
    David

    Have always liked the IF bikes but not willing to stretch to there TI model prices. Really like the steel crosser and the colour options are really good (keep the wife happy. Artist).
    Still unsure about steel?

    Anyone had any dealings with Mosquito bikes.

    Ken/Grifcp whats the modern litespeed problem? and Yes the LBS don't stock VN anymore used to. Still listed as on dealer locator on VN website for hampshire.

    Have noted lack of people in favour of CF? Yet for road bikes every manurfacturer and a lot of LBS rave about it.

    My next dilema is Camp or Shim? As the VN could be made into a sweet sweet ride for 2K. Struggling to get the IF planet cross built for that. David the wife is not going to like it but I really like the look of that IF build price is 500 more than VN. Is it worth it, aslo looked at uncle John and Kaffen back etc.
    Confirmed bike addict.

    Intense 5.5 EVP
    Yeti 575
    On one inbred
    Felt F65
  • Ken NightKen Night Posts: 2,005
    Woody68 wrote:
    Still unsure about steel?.

    Don't be. The bikes you mention below are great, for the purpose you describe-you could even go for a Surly
    Woody68 wrote:
    Ken/Grifcp whats the modern litespeed problem? and Yes the LBS don't stock VN anymore used to. Still listed as on dealer locator on VN website for hampshire.
    .
    I reckon Litespeed lost some of the magic when they were bought by the American Bicycle Co. Certainly the ride is not so plush with their recent models, and they have totally lost the plot with the Sportive model
    Woody68 wrote:
    Have noted lack of people in favour of CF? Yet for road bikes every manurfacturer and a lot of LBS rave about it. .
    Riding on bridle ways, lots of grit flicking against your frame etc......
    Woody68 wrote:
    My next dilema is Camp or Shim?
    .
    Only you can answer that question. You may be able to use some of your MtB parts if you stay 9speed Shimano. Campag and Sram are so much more intuitive and lets be honest, attractive....your wife being an artist needs to be pleased. Go on, you know it makes sense
    Woody68 wrote:

    aslo looked at uncle John and Kaffen back etc.
    Great everything bikes-GEtting a bike off the shelf as opposed to building it yourself does result in more for your money in terms of componentry
    “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best..." Ernest Hemingway
  • Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
    Good point on the CF Ken.

    Just been hunting around for steel bikes. Very retro and some are far from cheap.

    Oh the choices.

    Some of the american steel bikes are lurrrrrrrrrrrvly. But no dealers here so it would be import and build myself. Which just means less time cycling.

    Any other steel manurfacturers out there. I have allllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll night to surf.
    Confirmed bike addict.

    Intense 5.5 EVP
    Yeti 575
    On one inbred
    Felt F65
  • araceraracer Posts: 1,649
    Ken Night wrote:
    Woody68 wrote:
    Have noted lack of people in favour of CF? Yet for road bikes every manurfacturer and a lot of LBS rave about it. .
    Riding on bridle ways, lots of grit flicking against your frame etc......
    But then my MTB is CF (I've run a CF MTB for over 5 years now - this one for 3), and it's really not an issue. I've had dirty great rocks bounce off my downtube onto my toes resulting in painful bruises, but no obvious marks on the downtube (meanwhile dented downtubes are commonly seen with alu frames).

    I think the real reason for the lack of CF recommendations is that people don't seem to get as passionate about CF frames as they do about ti or even steel - since CF just works, and isn't generally crafted by a little man in a shed, hence doesn't get the same cult following. FWIW IMHO CF would be a good choice for a frame for you if that's what you want and you can find the right thing.
  • DavidBelcherDavidBelcher Posts: 2,684
    Ken Night wrote:
    Campag and Sram are so much more intuitive and lets be honest, attractive....your wife being an artist needs to be pleased. Go on, you know it makes sense

    Also, both of these brands use gear cables concealed under the bar tape - much less vulnerable when off-roading. For this reason, why so many people on the 'cross racing scene use Shimano STI baffles me. :?

    David
    "It is not enough merely to win; others must lose." - Gore Vidal
  • Woody68Woody68 Posts: 18
    Thanks David

    I have been trying to build a bike on Mosquitos site using an IF cross but can't get it as cheap oranywhere near the cost of a VN.

    Notice you live not far away. Any good bike shops in the area. I am new down here so haven't got to grips with the LBS. I am Petersfield way.

    Also any good road/trails over that way. 30+ milers or so.
    Confirmed bike addict.

    Intense 5.5 EVP
    Yeti 575
    On one inbred
    Felt F65
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