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Winter training

damage36damage36 Posts: 282
Good day cyclists!

I hope you are all glued to some sort of screen following the World Champs TT *, which I suppose signals the end of the road season. I am a new participant in the sport but have followed it for a good while. To the matter in hand...

This will be my first winters training, the targets are some cat4 races next year and the Etap, and perhaps some UK sportives aswell. I'm trying to work out a rough programme for training myself up to that which currently looks like...

1)2x20min turbo
2)hill repeats (I'm doing 5 repeats up a 20% slope of about 6-700m)
and/or leg presses and various other weights in the gym
3)50mile group ride
4)a sunday spin to recover from having my legs ripped off needlessly sprinting for 30 signs on the saturday!
5) weather dependent commutes (11miles each way)

What do we think?

I was thinking of adding a rollers session to improve my balance and pedalling fluency - worth buying one?

DMG
Legs, lungs and lycra.

Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
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Posts

  • damage36 wrote:

    I was thinking of adding a rollers session to improve my balance and pedalling fluency - worth buying one?

    DMG

    Rollers are loads more fun than a turbo session (but then so are most things :lol: ).
  • I'm not sure I should base my value of indoor trainers of 'fun' levels :P
    Legs, lungs and lycra.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  • damage36 wrote:
    2)hill repeats (I'm doing 5 repeats up a 20% slope of about 6-700m)
    and/or leg presses and various other weights in the gym

    What do we think?

    DMG

    I'm not going to bother doing hill repeats anymore, damage. Where I live is pretty hilly so if you ride often then the hills tend to take care of themselves rather than going up and down the same one X amount of times.

    I tried repeats but TBH getting out and pumping miles into my legs worked better for me.

    Mind you it depends on your area's terrain. If you live in a flatish area then fair enough. But I still think you will get more out of 'just riding' varied terrain :)
    'How can an opinion be bullsh1t?' High Fidelity
  • The reason for the repeats is the evenings are too dark to do a whole ride, so I'm just getting the uphill bit in then nipping home. I live on the explanatory-named Somerset Levels :roll:
    Legs, lungs and lycra.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  • damage36 wrote:
    I'm not sure I should base my value of indoor trainers of 'fun' levels :P

    Seriously, you'd be surprised mate - in the end it's all about training consistently, and its damn hard to be consistant about something that bores you ...
  • damage36 wrote:
    The reason for the repeats is the evenings are too dark to do a whole ride, so I'm just getting the uphill bit in then nipping home. I live on the explanatory-named Somerset Levels :roll:

    Ah, 'nuff said, then :wink:
    'How can an opinion be bullsh1t?' High Fidelity
  • damage36 wrote:
    I'm not sure I should base my value of indoor trainers of 'fun' levels :P

    Seriously, you'd be surprised mate - in the end it's all about training consistently, and its damn hard to be consistant about something that bores you ...

    As a former rower, I am no stranger to endless tedium on machines in a garage :D
    On the plus side cycling does not necessitate getting up at 5.30am!
    Legs, lungs and lycra.

    Build a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
  • bahzobbahzob Posts: 2,195
    damage36 wrote:

    I was thinking of adding a rollers session to improve my balance and pedalling fluency - worth buying one?

    DMG

    Rollers are loads more fun than a turbo session (but then so are most things :lol: ).

    Seconded on the rollers front. I find time goes by far more quickly using them compared to turbo. But if you get rollers you may need to get a resistance unit as well in order to get up to the required load.
    Martin S. Newbury RC
  • Make sure you get a good base level fitness in before doing the high end work (hill repeats and 2x20s). Personally I'll be doing mainly long steady rides between now and March, when I'll start increasing the interval sessions and putting the polish on my riding.
    We are all full of weakness and errors; let us mutually pardon each other our follies - it is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire
  • Make sure you get a good base level fitness in before doing the high end work (hill repeats and 2x20s). Personally I'll be doing mainly long steady rides between now and March, when I'll start increasing the interval sessions and putting the polish on my riding.
    We are all full of weakness and errors; let us mutually pardon each other our follies - it is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire
  • Make sure you get a good base level fitness in before doing the high end work (hill repeats and 2x20s). Personally I'll be doing mainly long steady rides between now and March, when I'll start increasing the interval sessions and putting the polish on my riding.
    We are all full of weakness and errors; let us mutually pardon each other our follies - it is the first law of nature.
    Voltaire
  • Hill repeats are definitely worthwhile. I train in the hills all the time but there's a difference between working at a hard but steady rate for four or five miles up a climb and working hard on shorter hills. They both do different things. I use them to develop my leg strength by pushing a really big gear from a seated position but also to develop my "jump" by spinning up the hill fast in a small gear and at some point, clicking up a gear, getting out of the saddle and accelerating for a hundred metres or so. I just alternate reps for each of the two. Definitely good training.
  • damage36 wrote:
    Good day cyclists!

    I hope you are all glued to some sort of screen following the World Champs TT *, which I suppose signals the end of the road season. I am a new participant in the sport but have followed it for a good while. To the matter in hand...

    This will be my first winters training, the targets are some cat4 races next year and the Etap, and perhaps some UK sportives aswell. I'm trying to work out a rough programme for training myself up to that which currently looks like...

    1)2x20min turbo
    2)hill repeats (I'm doing 5 repeats up a 20% slope of about 6-700m)
    and/or leg presses and various other weights in the gym
    3)50mile group ride
    4)a sunday spin to recover from having my legs ripped off needlessly sprinting for 30 signs on the saturday!
    5) weather dependent commutes (11miles each way)

    What do we think?

    I was thinking of adding a rollers session to improve my balance and pedalling fluency - worth buying one?

    DMG

    I dunno, I am using a coach mind you this year and your training for the winter, and your training versus mine, looks a tad too hard. What is the point of being King in November, December or January to be burnt out by March or April when you should be starting to build your form.

    Just ride your bike aerobically this time of year 3 or 4 times a week and get to the Gym on the other days for some weight training and some stretching. After the New Year, then start to enter your build phase of the training.

    You might find that on the gorup rides that if you let the group go when they ramp up the pace past the aerobic zone there will be others that will be more than happy to join you at the back for a nice aerobic workout. :)
  • dealdeal Posts: 857
    Im currently trying to put myself together some kind of training plan to maintain/build my fitness up over the winter but no there seems to be so much conflicting advice its a bit confusing

    I plan on 5 rides per week, one long ride on saturday and a shorter ride on sunday and 3 rides during the rest of the week.

    My current plan looks like this

    Monday: Rest
    Tuesday: 90 Mins Turbo - while watching tv/dvd
    Wednesday: 2 hours, easy road ride or possibly xc mtb, fairly gentle terain
    Thurday: 90 mins Turbo - with a turbo trainer dvd, aerobic workout one which focuses on some high cadence intervals
    Friday: Rest
    Saturday: 3 hour road
    sunday: 90 mins road

    I plan to do all these workouts at around 70-75% max heart rate, am I right to avoid any harder stuff? i notice alot of talk about 2x20 intervals but am not sure if this is suitable for base training or is something that should be incorporated into the later part of a training program. This is my second week on this program and plan to keep it much the same until the new year.

    I would be greatfull for any comments/suggestions
  • deal wrote:
    Im currently trying to put myself together some kind of training plan to maintain/build my fitness up over the winter but no there seems to be so much conflicting advice its a bit confusing

    I plan on 5 rides per week, one long ride on saturday and a shorter ride on sunday and 3 rides during the rest of the week.

    My current plan looks like this

    Monday: Rest
    Tuesday: 90 Mins Turbo - while watching tv/dvd
    Wednesday: 2 hours, easy road ride or possibly xc mtb, fairly gentle terain
    Thurday: 90 mins Turbo - with a turbo trainer dvd, aerobic workout one which focuses on some high cadence intervals
    Friday: Rest
    Saturday: 3 hour road
    sunday: 90 mins road

    I plan to do all these workouts at around 70-75% max heart rate, am I right to avoid any harder stuff? i notice alot of talk about 2x20 intervals but am not sure if this is suitable for base training or is something that should be incorporated into the later part of a training program. This is my second week on this program and plan to keep it much the same until the new year.

    I would be greatfull for any comments/suggestions

    It depends on your goals and who your coach is and what are your target events. If you are planning on racing in the Spring or doing a sportiff at a PB, then what is the point on building right now by going hard?

    Now maybe you only have time to ride three times a week and two of them are very short rides on the Turbo. Then I would say do two short hard turbo session on Tuesday and Thursday and a longer aerobic ride on the weekend. This is what Carmichael Training recommends.

    If you have the time, I think it is better to ride Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday and do something different on Mondays, Wednesday and Friday. That could be a day off if you feel tired. Some work in the Gym lifting some weights. Maybe some weight bearing cross training like running, maybe cross country skiiing, snow shoeing swimming or a little of more than one thing on these days. If you are doing reasonable workouts of 1.5 to 3 hours max, there probably isn't much need for a day off unless you have a stressful spell at work or lack of sleep and you feel tired. Otherwise, why not train everyday in the off season and build that aerobic fitness and burn some fat.

    I am just summarizing what my coach has told me but I am sure there are other theories and probably have relevance depending on what your goals are. Each persons body is different and will react differently. But think about the seasons and your own body's reaction to the decreasing daylight during the Autumn and winter months and take the natural course of alowing your body to decrease your peak fitness while building that aerobic engine.

    Unless you are racing cross, or indoor track season, what is the point in going hard right now?
  • Again I can only vouch for rollers. I bought a set of Elite Ghibli rollers last year as I fancied the challenge of staying on them, plus the more realistic feeling of riding a bike indoors. Since then they have morphed into a machine of torture, resembling a medieval rack from some angles! I added a Kreitler resistance fan from the USA, which even when fully closed is slightly higher wattage than riding the bike on a flat road in still air, and cranked wide open you have to get out of the saddle and stand on it! I also converted them to 'free motion rollers' so they have fore and aft float, which again feels much more realistic. All the parts bought for about £50 from B&Q (plus the resistance fan) and knocked up in around 3 hours. I'll try and get some photos of it or maybe a video. I don't have a power meter so I can't flesh it out with number, but suffice to say I am a reasonably fit rider that can ride along at evens on a solo ride on flat terrain, but this machine can push me into the red in seconds if I want it to! :shock: I certainly don't need to buy a turbo trainer now...

    So, sorry no help at all with actual training programmes, but whatever programme you choose, you could certainly do all your indoor riding on rollers.
  • mickenmicken Posts: 275
    @ derekwatts

    I'm sure a lot of people will be interested inturning a standard set of rollers into something that works along the lines of the e-motion set up.

    I'm looking forward to your subsequent posts.
  • Here's some details on some home brew e-motion style rollers:

    A video of them in use can be found here:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php? ... stcount=10

    and instructions on how they were made:
    http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.php? ... ostcount=1


    I have a client with the real deal e-motions and he absolutely loves 'em.
  • Hmm got some photos of the 'roller wind trainer' but I see you can't upload photos here - or can you? Answers on a postcard please! Failing that I'll try and get a small video uploaded to you tube later and link to it.[/img]
  • derekwatts wrote:
    Hmm got some photos of the 'roller wind trainer' but I see you can't upload photos here - or can you? Answers on a postcard please! Failing that I'll try and get a small video uploaded to you tube later and link to it.[/img]
    You can link to images but not upload them.

    So you'd need to upload to an image server like photobucket or similar and provide a link to that.
  • Ok thanks for that! Here it is then:-

    100_0609.jpg

    100_0610.jpg

    100_0611.jpg

    100_0614.jpg


    The unit uses a set of Elite Ghibli Parabollic Rollers (though any will do!), a Kreitler 'Killer Headwind' Fan (sourced in the USA), two pairs of longboard polyuerethane skateboard wheel (Longboard wheels as they have a square shoulder to the wheels...) about 5 feet of 1" round steel tube, about 10 feet of 1" square steel tube, some aluminium strip, and a fair amount of timber. (2 pieces of 4"x2" for the base, and 4 pieces of 2"x2" for the side pieces and the end cross rails) Also 2 elasticated 'tie down' straps that I purchased in 'PEP Boys' car accessory store, but anything will suffice with the right strength and elasticity. All of this (with the exception of the cycling specific bits and the skateboard wheels of course) you can buy at a DIY store e.g. B&Q, Home Depot. It took about 4 hours to measure up and cut, drill, bolt etc, plus a couple more hours to paint and varnish it.

    The diameter of the rollers is slightly smaller than the Kreitler rollers it was designed to be used with, so the workload is slightly higher. The whole unit, whilst being quite heavy, (it can still be lifted by one person and carried on it's side) is absolutely rock solid on the ground, and the frame moves easily on the wheels, as they are decent quality and have roller bearings in them. Don't cut corners and fit caster wheels here, they will not rotate freely under a heavy vertical load, thus defeating the whole idea of 'free motion' fore and aft. Also, if you don't assemble the fan (or mag unit, or whatever resistance unit you have) with sufficient tension in the belt, it may slip at high loads. This happened to me and I had to re-drill the mounting holes on the left hand frame rail, to add more tension to the belt. Now it doesn't slip, but eventually the rear tire will slip on the roller if you crank the resistance up to max and sprint for it... According to the Wattage chart on the Kreitler website this would equate to (very roughly) over 1200 watts. But I can only sustain anything near this for a matter of a few seconds anyway before I am a spent force! I suppose I could put a strip of 'grip tape' around the roller to help, but I doubt it will be an issue unless your name is Mark Cavendish!

    Any questions, fire away. I'll try and get a video uploaded some time today.
  • mickenmicken Posts: 275
    That's fantastic derekwatts, thanks for taking the time and posting. I can see my own build on the horizon. :lol:
  • nolfnolf Posts: 1,287
    Winter shouldn't be too anaerobic. Really don't need to be doing 2x20's this time of year (unless you do cyclocross racing).

    This time of year until just after christmas I'll be doing 3/4 hour fast club run rides twice a week, easy rides on the rollers, 2/3 hour rides where I mix it up a bit with hilly routes or big gear low cadence training/low gear high cadence training. Plus lots of sprints for road signs on long endurance rides to keep things competitive and try and get faster recovery.

    I also like to use this time of year to scout out all of the courses which I plan on racing on next year. I ride to all my races so if they're within riding distance I might ride out, then do a few laps of the course, maybe one quite fast to get a feel for it, then ride home. Means I have bit more knowledge come racing season.

    Also once a week I plan on doing a fast lap of the local TT course or an SQT training session at Manchester again to keep things different and interesting.
    "I hold it true, what'er befall;
    I feel it, when I sorrow most;
    'Tis better to have loved and lost;
    Than never to have loved at all."

    Alfred Tennyson
  • nolf wrote:
    Winter shouldn't be too anaerobic. Really don't need to be doing 2x20's this time of year (unless you do cyclocross racing).

    This time of year until just after christmas I'll be doing 3/4 hour fast club run rides twice a week, easy rides on the rollers, 2/3 hour rides where I mix it up a bit with hilly routes or big gear low cadence training/low gear high cadence training. Plus lots of sprints for road signs on long endurance rides to keep things competitive and try and get faster recovery.
    The irony of course in what you've written is that the 2x20's are by their nature almost exclusively aerobic training while the group rides and sprint sessions you talk of contain lots of anaerobic efforts.
  • micken wrote:
    That's fantastic derekwatts, thanks for taking the time and posting. I can see my own build on the horizon. :lol:
    Ditto, they are an excellent home brew and are great to ride I bet.
  • Wow, those home built rollers look great. Nice. :o

    Just wanted to add. So many people think an aerobic ride is easy. But it really isn't easy, it is a very good workout when done correctly and if you use a concerted effot to keep the HR near the upper end of the aerobic zone especially on the downhills. You just aren't hammering yourself into the ground. You can even mix it up a bit by spinning one day, big gear low cadence another day and climbs a third day working on your firm and technique while seated and standing just to keep it interesting.
  • methodmethod Posts: 784
    nolf wrote:
    Winter shouldn't be too anaerobic. Really don't need to be doing 2x20's this time of year (unless you do cyclocross racing).
    .


    I'd have to disagree with this bit, other than the point raised above. I think that although you probably sholdn't be going too hard now, one 2x20 a week is going to be beneficial and shouldn't cause you any grief. If you want you could always drop the effort slightly and just try to maintain your ftp.

    I should add that this is all based on my own opinion and I don't neccessarily know what I'm talking about. I'm certainly carrying on doing them all year, I don't think I'm going to overtrain on one 2x20 minuter.
  • method wrote:
    nolf wrote:
    Winter shouldn't be too anaerobic. Really don't need to be doing 2x20's this time of year (unless you do cyclocross racing).
    .


    I'd have to disagree with this bit, other than the point raised above. I think that although you probably sholdn't be going too hard now, one 2x20 a week is going to be beneficial and shouldn't cause you any grief. If you want you could always drop the effort slightly and just try to maintain your ftp.

    I should add that this is all based on my own opinion and I don't neccessarily know what I'm talking about. I'm certainly carrying on doing them all year, I don't think I'm going to overtrain on one 2x20 minuter.

    No. probably not OT, but what is the point of doing one 2 x 20 minuter? Are you attempting to increase fitnes? Maybe, not loose as much fitness? Or is it just because you like it?

    I am presently doing 9 hrs to 15 hrs a week depending on time available and that includes about 1.5 to 2 hours of actual weight training (not counting the warm-up spin and after work-out spin and stretching). But, if I had only 5 or 6 hours say, I would probably do what Carmichael does and a local indoor training center does for cyclists with less time than I have. They do a Tuesday and Thursday one hour session that basicially amounts to one hard 25 to 30 minutes TT and two aerobic rides on Saturday and Sunday. (pretty much what Carmichael trianing does) and maybe some weight training during the week if time allows. So probably 6 hours max or less. I think they will both end up in the same place, but you gotta be able to handle the intensity with this one. I like the mental break from the TT intensity and I have some time to ride a little longer.

    But, a couple of the poster's were talking about three pretty intense rides each week and a lot of times the group rides are at tempo/zone 4 most of the time with intense surges at other times. You end up burning the matches at both ends. Not really peaking and not really building any kind of base. Your kind of in the build phase all of the time.

    So let me play a little devils advocate.

    So you might be right on target with one 2x20 depending on your riding time and what Cat you race in. But, I really wonder what is so great or magical about 20 minute efforts.. What about pyramids or doing intervals on hills of varying lengths to get different benefits such as sprinting when they are really short for max efforts, Zone 5 for slightly longer hills and zone 4 for even longer hills? The body will continue to try to adapt the more variety you give it. If all you do is 2x20 (I am not saying that is all you do or 20 minute efforts are not helpful) then you will only be good at 20 minute TT like efforts. Why not one 40 minute effort or one hour effort that might help you on a 25 mile TT. Well, you get the point.
  • methodmethod Posts: 784
    I should perhaps add that I'm a triathlete, so I'm generally doing a long ride, turbo interval and maybe a shorter fast ride on top of several sessions of swimming and running.

    The 2 x 20 minute session for me is to increase my FTP and going by the readings I'm getting its helping.

    Why 2 x 20? good point I guess, there are lots of different intervals I could do, Andrew Coggan himself admits that the invention of the 2x20 was based on a local out and back he did, no scientific basis.

    Being that I'm training for standard distance (40km) FTP is pretty valid as what I generally need is 60 minutes of constant effort.

    I like it and it seems to work for me at the moment.
  • Nothing magical about 2x20s other than convenience.

    Also, there seems to be a misconception that these efforts are not aerobic. All effort levels from lying in bed to a hard effort lasting only a few minutes (e.g. an individual pursuit) are predominantly aerobic.

    TT level efforts are most definitely aerobic.

    Even repeated hard efforts of 3-5-min are almost exclusively aerobic in nature and their impact is on development of our aerobic abilities. However, when such efforts should be used is another matter since there are different physiological elements to our aerobic abilities and the time course for adaptations of these vary.
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