Girl cyclist under a lorry blackfriars bridge 12/09

chipolopolo

duncedunce wrote:

I think if you look at this Google map and zoom in on the left hand (northbound) carriageway of the road bridge you will see that a cycle lane appears from thin air inbetween the two lanes of traffic at the start of Blackfriars bridge, continues for a few hundred yards over the bridge (with normal motorised traffic either side - no bail out route for a cyclist once they have managed to filter across) to the north end traffic light junction. Any vehicle that gets into the right hand lane and decides it needs to turn left must cross the cycle lane.
Stuart

That satellite picture of the cycle-lane is way out of date, they moved it a number of years ago and it now starts just after the pedestrian crossing at the south end of the bridge and runs down the left adjacent to the pavement.

chuckcork

Carlfran wrote:

It's all very well saying not to undertake lorries- but what if they turn left and you're going straight on, and you don't even see them as they're approaching you? What are you supposed to do then? I guess spend the whole time looking over your shoulder. Literally.

If you've seen the clips on Youtube by Downfader et al you will see they spend a lot of time shoulder checking. I developed the same nervous habit when I had a motorbike (in London), never left me when I changed to the bike. I can't even walk down a footpath now without doing it.

But no amount of shoulder checking is going to help if the traffic is undertaking and then cutting across in front of you.

downfader

chuckcork wrote:

Carlfran wrote:

It's all very well saying not to undertake lorries- but what if they turn left and you're going straight on, and you don't even see them as they're approaching you? What are you supposed to do then? I guess spend the whole time looking over your shoulder. Literally.

If you've seen the clips on Youtube by Downfader et al you will see they spend a lot of time shoulder checking. I developed the same nervous habit when I had a motorbike (in London), never left me when I changed to the bike. I can't even walk down a footpath now without doing it.

But no amount of shoulder checking is going to help if the traffic is undertaking and then cutting across in front of you.

It was actually a motorcyclist that taught me to shoulder-check. And as you say Chuck, I find myself doing it on the pavement too when walking :oops: Its a good habit to get into regardless of the road and traffic... and as my old man says "try and do the thinking for the other road user"

I just had a look at that googlemap, even if it is out of date (prolly 3 years given the satellite they use) it still begs the question: what idiot thought that was a good idea?! We have similar road layouts in southampton and they are slowly being replaced with toucan crossings and shared cycle/ped fascilities. its slower, but it is safer at these places.My opinion obviously

chuckcork

downfader wrote:

I just had a look at that googlemap, even if it is out of date (prolly 3 years given the satellite they use) it still begs the question: what idiot thought that was a good idea?! We have similar road layouts in southampton and they are slowly being replaced with toucan crossings and shared cycle/ped fascilities. its slower, but it is safer at these places.My opinion obviously

I saw an article on the Galway Cycle Campaign website where they were almost begging the Council not to do something, and got nowhere with their complaints other than a brush-off. Any "facility" no matter how badly designed, ill-thought and dangerous it is it would seem, is better than having none at all, regardless of demonstrated accident rates to the contrary. It is called Progress?

But that is what you get when design standards and guidelines are taken totally out of context and used inappropriately by those who neither know, care, or are responsible for the results.

Verb

Carlfran wrote:

It's all very well saying not to undertake lorries- but what if they turn left and you're going straight on, and you don't even see them as they're approaching you? What are you supposed to do then? I guess spend the whole time looking over your shoulder. Literally.

When you're approaching the junction, obviously you keep looking over your shoulder to know what is coming from behind. If it's the case that cars/trucks often turn left dangerously at the junction, then take the lane. Pull back in when past the turn.

Clever Pun

chuckcork wrote:

Carlfran wrote:

It's all very well saying not to undertake lorries- but what if they turn left and you're going straight on, and you don't even see them as they're approaching you? What are you supposed to do then? I guess spend the whole time looking over your shoulder. Literally.

If you've seen the clips on Youtube by Downfader et al you will see they spend a lot of time shoulder checking. I developed the same nervous habit when I had a motorbike (in London), never left me when I changed to the bike. I can't even walk down a footpath now without doing it.

yeah I do this too

secretsam

Clever Pun wrote:

chuckcork wrote:

Carlfran wrote:

It's all very well saying not to undertake lorries- but what if they turn left and you're going straight on, and you don't even see them as they're approaching you? What are you supposed to do then? I guess spend the whole time looking over your shoulder. Literally.

If you've seen the clips on Youtube by Downfader et al you will see they spend a lot of time shoulder checking. I developed the same nervous habit when I had a motorbike (in London), never left me when I changed to the bike. I can't even walk down a footpath now without doing it.

yeah I do this too

Ditto - I do it in a car as well. Even when not driving...

The Rat Princess

I was cycling over Blackfriars Bridge on Friday morning. I saw the girl under the lorry but not the circumstances of how it occurred. My sympathies really go out to her and her family.

Two years ago, I was the victim of a hit and run (no way near as bad) - car failed to stop at a give way and pulled out on me. A year ago, my boyfriend was knocked off his bike by a left turning lorry which was turning accross two lanes (luckily, it only rolled over his bike).

All of this really makes me question how safe it is to cycle in London despite those TFL adverts 'You're better of by bike'. TFL, local councils and the government need to put their money where their mouth is. They need to improve conditions on the road and need a national campaign to raise awareness regarding cyclists (similar to the one relating to motor cyclists).

I cycle over Blackfriars Bridge every day. My current strategy for this junction is if the lights are red to get into the advance stop box and take the middle lane. While waiting for the lights, I check over my shoulder and catch eyes with and smile at the drivers behind me to check they have seen me. If the traffic is moving, I approach the junction with caution. I do not go on the inside of any lorries. As I approach and go past the junction, I check over my shoulder several times. I might start adopting the middle of the lane now.

After my accident, I had free cycle lessons via my local council (Southwark http://www.cyclinginstructor.com/cyclin ... $Category1)/6627A293DE39FDCC802571CD0059876B). I would highly recommend them to anyone, even very seasoned cyclists. You are basically taught advanced skills for cycling in an urban environment. We should all be humble enough believe that there is always room for improvement.

After seeing this accident, I have resolved to write to my MP, my local councillor, TFL and one of the cycling groups to raise my concerns. It really does make a difference, by making a huge fuss about my accident, the driver was prosecuted and the layout of the road was changed.

gmillsy

i was walking over the bridge just after she was hit, so saw her legs under the lorry. Looked horrendous, my thoughts go out to her and her family/friends, and also those who witnessed the event - there was a woman there who was very upset, so i hope she is ok too.

I think the junction on the north side of the bridge is massively dangerous, especially the section going on to new bridge street where the cycle lane is separated from the road by a raised section and a bollard.

I know the raised section is there to prevent cars cutting into the lane, but given that it is downhill and people are often riding off from the lights fast it seems all to easy to miss the turn/lose control there and hit the railings or a car. A mate of mine did this a few months ago and got off luckily with just a few cuts but it could have been much worse.

G

Dudu

This is all very sad.

You can ride perfectly - taking your lane, never undertaking HGVs, riding at traffic speed and keeping alert to what's happening around you - but you will still be vulnerable to the dreaded left hook.

With a car, this doesn't always result in injury or even a crash, but with an HGV it is very likely to be fatal.

It happens because drivers are in too much of a hurry (possibly under pressure from their employer or customer), underestimate cycle speeds, are not paying attention or quite simply don't give a stuff about other road users.

We need

1. A ban on HGVs from city centres
2. A ban on small goods vehicles during the daytime
3. Much more rigorous training and regulation of goods vehicle drivers
4. Real penalties for drivers who cause death or injury, commensurate with the penalties they'd receive for assault, GBH, manslaughter or murder - not the small fine and slap on the wrist they usually get.
5. A presumption in a vehicle-cyclist collision that the vehicle driver - with far superior acceleration and braking - is at fault.

snellgrove

Does anyone know if she was ok in the end?

Couldn't find 'owt on Google news or the BBC

moonio

I saw the accident too, the paramedics were with her and an ambulance had just arrived, I'm so pleased to read she was alive, its been on my mind ever since and I haven't been able to ride my bike since Friday as I've been too scared.

Does anyone have any information on motorists blind spots...??

moonio

I think one solution to to making that junction safer would be to have a cyclists light phase.

woodford2barbican

moonio wrote:

I saw the accident too, the paramedics were with her and an ambulance had just arrived, I'm so pleased to read she was alive, its been on my mind ever since and I haven't been able to ride my bike since Friday as I've been too scared.

Does anyone have any information on motorists blind spots...??

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/d ... fe/#Item_0

The Rat Princess

moonio wrote:

I think one solution to to making that junction safer would be to have a cyclists light phase.

I think that would solve the problem for when the traffic is stationary at the lights. It doesn't solve the problem for when the traffic is already going through the lights. Any thoughts anyone?....I need some suggestions for my various letters.

always_tyred

How about a "cyclists dismount" sign half way across the bridge?

el_presidente

woodford2barbican wrote:

moonio wrote:

I saw the accident too, the paramedics were with her and an ambulance had just arrived, I'm so pleased to read she was alive, its been on my mind ever since and I haven't been able to ride my bike since Friday as I've been too scared.

Does anyone have any information on motorists blind spots...??

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/d ... fe/#Item_0

Nice post even though those diagrams are a little intense! The other thing to always remember is that if you can't see the mirrors then the driver can't see you

secretsam

el_presidente wrote:

woodford2barbican wrote:

moonio wrote:

I saw the accident too, the paramedics were with her and an ambulance had just arrived, I'm so pleased to read she was alive, its been on my mind ever since and I haven't been able to ride my bike since Friday as I've been too scared.

Does anyone have any information on motorists blind spots...??

http://www.movingtargetzine.com/forum/d ... fe/#Item_0

Nice post even though those diagrams are a little intense! The other thing to always remember is that if you can't see the mirrors then the driver can't see you

...and don't forget the driver may only look once before turning, and may miss you. In essence, anticipate that they WON'T see you, if they do it's a bonus.

And that comes from a car driver.

jerseytom

i was knocked off my bike on Blackfriars bridge. Luckily i got away with a broken nose, tooth and generally bloody and bruised. driver didn't even realise he'd clipped me and drove on. Nice!

Terrible bridge and very anti-cyclist.

suggestions for bridge are to have a decent cycle lane that traffic can't get into. Cars ignore the green cycle lanes most of the time.

cyclenutter

Yes me to my thought are with here

You do what ever you can to make yourself visable but sometimes it still isnt enough for some people.

Ok granted there are accidents but larger vehicles need to be more mindfull people should give way to cyclists more than buses.

It really makes me mad ..Im not gonna rant on theres no point i just hope she and everyone concerned is ok

Belphegor

My stepdad was a truck driver, and it is bloody hard to see in that blind spot, depending on the length and height of the truck of course. However HGV (and bus) drivers should be aware of precisely these things, particularly in built up areas.

Anyone seen how students cycle in Oxford? Unbelieveable, but people do ride along coat tails flapping completely unaware of their surroundings and other road users, just as bus drivers seem to be blinkered. I was on a bus once, standing at the front waiting to get off when a bus in front crept into our lane, and collided, smashing the windscreen. The other bus driver didn't even notice and carried on away up the street, so it's not hard to imagine them not noticing taking out a cyclist.

Banning large vehicles from city centres really would not work. How do you expect goods get to shops, and Underground lines get extended/refurbished (as a small example of why say, a tipper truck with mud all over it's indicators might be in the centre of London)? And of course the buses. Crocodile buses are even worse...

When it comes down to it, these things (the layout of road junctions and how they affect a relatively small amount of untaxed users) aren't big publicity earners, so they are unlikely to get much in the way of public spending to rectify, unlike say... the Olympics would/does/is. Because lets face it, the world's cycling teams certainly won't be cycling in to the games in rush hour traffic now will they?

The sad thing is there would be a media uproar if they did and an accident did happen, whereas no one could even find out the immediate fate of this poor woman. Just another accident among many in London that day (and throughout the country I'm sure) and things will carry on as normal.

I feel really sorry for the woman involved in the accident, it's horrible

The Rat Princess

There's a sign on the bridge - City police are now appealing for witnesses. Telephone 020 7601 2222.

number9

Put up a sign a week later, brilliant.

DonDaddyD

Does anyone know whether the women survived?

Clever Pun

Can't people use the bridges either side if it's as dangerous as people say? it's a little further sure, but you'll be safer and fitter...

Just saying...

Dudu

Clever Pun wrote:

Can't people use the bridges either side if it's as dangerous as people say? it's a little further sure, but you'll be safer and fitter...

Just saying...

A much better idea would be to ban motor vehicles altogether from some Thames bridges. After all, it's not much further, is it?

moonio

Maybe we London cyclists can organise a vigil/demo at the sites of the 2 accidents?

il_principe

Belphegor wrote:

When it comes down to it, these things (the layout of road junctions and how they affect a relatively small amount of untaxed users) aren't big publicity earners,

What do you mean by this? The tax thing is a non-starter:

There is no such thing as “road tax”. A tax of that name was abolished in 1936 and was intended at the time to be a contribution to highway costs. Vehicle Excise Duty, or Car Tax is what many people mistakenly think of as “road tax”. It isn’t. It no more pays for the road than the VAT on a Mars bar. Local authorities have maintenance responsibility for the roads. Everyone should know that. Especially Council Tax payers, because it says so on their Council Tax accounts. Local Authorities’ get their funding from a combination of Council Tax and a Treasury Grant from general taxation. So, the roads are for everyone. And everyone pays.

femalecyclist

The Rat Princess wrote:

There's a sign on the bridge - City police are now appealing for witnesses. Telephone 020 7601 2222.

The police was stopping people on the bridge today to ask whether they witnessed the accident. I forgot to ask how she was doing. Did anyone get any news?

PatrickT

I have just found out that this poor girl is my neighbours sons girlfriend. I was chatting to my neighbour today and she told me that her son's girlfriend was involved in a terrible cycling accident last friday. .

She has survived the accident bu has had to undergo countles operatios over the last week. She is apparently in one of the best teaching hospitals in London for this kind of treatment. I will update you when I know more.

May I on behalf of the family thank you all for the kind words which I have passed on to the family.

Patrick