How to deal with moron chavs

robmanic1

I think the government should secretly sanction a "snatch sqaud" like in Brazil, to trawl the streets at night, anyone in Burberry or Lonsdale and anyone wearing hat is fair game(admittedly some old folk may mistakenly be snatched, but I'm willilng to take the risk, especially since Tesco's would be a lot quieter on a Saturday afternoon when most of them choose to do their shopping).

As long as we take care not to infringe their human rights eh!

boybiker

Round here if you go to the police and tell them that you are wanted man and have come to give yourself up, they tell you to make an appointment to see someone next Wednesday

penugent

mikedobson wrote:

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

violence merely begats violence.

That is almost total cr@p. It is only true if the person you thump thinks they have a chance against you.

Respect to the OP. I would have done the same had I had the same problem. The only extra thing I would have done was to have noted the Reg in case of any come-back.

To paraphrase: it is the quiet voice of the many and not the angry voice of the few that makes a change.

No matter how tempting it is to tw*t someone!

Shantih

I wouldn't like to have you trying to uphold my rights mate. The silent majoriry never do anything other than snivel in corners.

mikedobson

You're confusing acquiesence with lawful reparation.

It is futile and incendiary to strike out at someone, no matter what harm they may have done you, when a better and lawful and more positive alternative is available.

Or, NOT doing the right thing in this circumstance is contributory to the well-being of cyclists.

Your solution gives vent to immediate anger and provides no long lasting benefit. It is also risky for the "puncher" and absolutely illegal.

My solution may not have the cock waving appeal of instant violent gratification but it does have as its result a widening of the shared experience and knowledge that all us riders know to well, and alerts the proper authorities to the issues.

If already violent people know that abusing a cyclist is likely to result in a good fight I'm guessing there'll be more fights not less.

So, if I'm right, reacting increases the risk to other riders, some of whom (like me for instance) don't want to get into a fight!

markos1963

At heart I am a peaceful person but if someone has a go at me or my family then its fair game as far as I am concerned. To reach out of a car and attack a cyclist who might fall and go under the wheels is to me and my non legal brain, attempted murder. If I get the chance I will do as the OP has done and take my opportunity. It might not be right but often these thugs will only resect someone who looks after themselves, they certainly don't respect the police. During 20 years in the retail trade we were often attacked by various people and even when panic buttons were pressed or 999 calls made the response by the police was to say the least pathetic. We had a robbery in the shop once with knives used and the response time, 2hours!

penugent

mikedobson wrote:

It is futile and incendiary to strike out at someone, no matter what harm they may have done you,

That hasn't been my experience.

If someone gets into my face they get out of it again pretty dam quick. I have never iniated a violent interaction in my life. However, I have dealt forcefully with a few people who thought they could push me around - I have never regreted it and they have never tried a second time.

You can think what you like. However, if I'm ever under threat I hope someone hands me a sword rather than pen or a note of the number for the local police station.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not advocating violence. I'm not a violent person. I have lived to retirement without so much as a speeding ticket against my record. That said, in my opinion, a good slap has worked wonders when people thought they could threaten/attack me.

mikedobson

Then why have laws at all!

They must be there for some reason?

Prove that striking someone reduces rather than increases violent acts and I'll accept your premise.

Whether or not they "try it a second time" with you is not the point. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!

If enough people complain, with supporting evidence like times, locations, registration plates etc, the police WILL take action and the message WILL go out that violence towards cyclists is not acceptable and WILL be punished.

In this way the total number of incidents will reduce. Like drink driving, like wearing seat belts, like any other area of life where attention is drawn and understanding of the issue raised.

If you can't act peacefully you shouldn't be surprised when people take the same view against you.

Like every cyclist on here I've been abused by ignorant people, sometimes dangerously. And each time I've wanted to respond just like the OP. But I have patiently, where possible, taken the reg. number and got on and enjoyed my ride. Preferring to use my adrenalin and testosterone in a more beneficial and positive way.

I have told the police and they have taken action. In one case I received an apology from a young man who spat at me on an ascent. It works guys!

Really ask yourself, when you strike out at another human being, who is it really that suffers? And I know that's the type of question that invites mockery on this site, but that's ok. You're a good bunch of people.

Peace.

fizz

Its difficult to turn the other cheek though.

I managed it a while ago after having my right elbow clipped by somebody in a 4 x 4. I caught up with him when he stopped at a set of lights and tapped on his drivers window till he wound it down at which point he was sh*tting himself and then I politely as I could explained what he'd done and that it would have been nicer if he had given me a bit more room, thanked him for his moronic display of driving skills and then rode away.

A week or so later I had a woman in a Ford Focus pull out in front of me whilst grinning like a moron at me through the passenger window. My reaction this time was to move out alongside her car and give her wing mirror a damn good thump. I over reacted I know I did but there was something about the fact that she was grinning at me that brought about the red mist.

In the original OP position I'd be watching my back for a while. But I bet the last thing those chav's were expecting was a fist through the passenger window...

penugent

mikedobson wrote:

. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!


Peace.

I regret to inform you that your eutopia will never exist.

I have always dealt with the realities of life.

vermooten

Good work boybiker, kill the fcker.

geoff_ss

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!


Peace.

I regret to inform you that your eutopia will never exist.

I have always dealt with the realities of life.

Unfortunately, my reality is that I'd be defenceless against most younger men so the law is my only recourse. I have little upper body strength and my right arm is almost useless even to throw a ball let alone a punch. My wife would be even more vulnerable.

On a practical note - Boy Biker should take care that the wound on his hand is properly disinfected. Human teeth are covered in bacteria likely to infect a wound. A colleague at work told me of a fight he had in his wild youth in which his fist removed a few teeth from his assailant's mouth. He had considerably more trouble with his hand than the loser with his teeth.

I have every sympathy with Boy Biker. I've often been tempted to do the same and only cowardice has stopped me. Well, that and the knowledge that in car versus bike conflict the bike usually comes off a lot worse.

Geoff

mikedobson

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!


Peace.

I regret to inform you that your eutopia will never exist.

I have always dealt with the realities of life.

It is not Utopian to perservere in the rule of law!

penugent

mikedobson wrote:

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!


Peace.

I regret to inform you that your eutopia will never exist.

I have always dealt with the realities of life.

It is not Utopian to perservere in the rule of law!

:roll:

Take a look at the lawmakers around the world (even in parts of the UK). They don't all come from backgrounds of peace and light!!

mikedobson

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

penugent wrote:

mikedobson wrote:

. The whole idea is to reduce the number of times they "try" it at all!


Peace.

I regret to inform you that your eutopia will never exist.

I have always dealt with the realities of life.

It is not Utopian to perservere in the rule of law!

:roll:

Take a look at the lawmakers around the world (even in parts of the UK). They don't all come from backgrounds of peace and light!!

Which means....we try harder.

dondare

The law as been taken over by pisswillies. Chavs have no respect for it and it has no power over them. The Boy done well.

passout

Quite an interesting deabate this but why do people always confuse right/wrong/justice with the law? It's like God and going to Church on Sunday - quite different from each other with the former been far more important.

Getting on the wrong side of the law in this case just means a fine and a crim. record anyway......big deal!

I think there are two valid questions here:
Was the Redhead right (morally)? IMO - Yes
Will the outcome be favourable? Who knows - maybe, maybe not.

Also I think violence does lead to violence but the victims identities may change i.e. Rehead may well get away it.

penugent

passout wrote:

Quite an interesting deabate this but why do people always confuse right/wrong/justice with the law? It's like God and going to Church on Sunday - quite different from each other with the former been far more important.

Getting on the wrong side of the law in this case just means a fine and a crim. record anyway......big deal!

I think there are two valid questions here:
Was the Redhead right (morally)? IMO - Yes
Will the outcome be favourable? Who knows - maybe, maybe not.

Also I think violence does lead to violence but the victims identities may change i.e. Rehead may well get away it.

I almost entirely agree

mikedobson

penugent wrote:

passout wrote:

Quite an interesting deabate this but why do people always confuse right/wrong/justice with the law? It's like God and going to Church on Sunday - quite different from each other with the former been far more important.

Getting on the wrong side of the law in this case just means a fine and a crim. record anyway......big deal!

I think there are two valid questions here:
Was the Redhead right (morally)? IMO - Yes
Will the outcome be favourable? Who knows - maybe, maybe not.

Also I think violence does lead to violence but the victims identities may change i.e. Rehead may well get away it.

I almost entirely agree

Some might say that the greater "morality" is at the societal level. Actually, to hell with this. You guys deserve what you get. You hit, they hit, we all hit. Great.

Love the assertion that a favourable outcome is one you can get away with. And did I notice a few policemen on here supporting the reaction? Interesting. If the guardians of the law support violent retaliation and a favourable outcome is one you can get away with what a lovely country this will be!

boybiker

Well.. since I posted about this I have had two people,one at last nights time trail and one guy on the road who have both recognized me and have both said that they would have done the same thing in my position, but both said that they had never had any trouble and the vast majority of drivers are just normal people so there you go, fame at last 8)

passout

Mike said, "Love the assertion that a favourable outcome is one you can get away with. And did I notice a few policemen on here supporting the reaction? Interesting. If the guardians of the law support violent retaliation and a favourable outcome is one you can get away with what a lovely country this will be!"

Well only an idiot thinks that getting caught is better! But that's not what I'm saying; Biker boy may well get away with it but another cyclist may get it in the neck. And besides, is violent retaliation always so wrong and in which countries wouldn't it be supported by most people? I think that if you go to Italy, Turkey, wherevever you'll find that Biker boys actions get as much, if not more, support than they did here - it's nothing to do with the state of the UK. However I bet they have less people throwing things at you in those two particular countires.

Also you talk about society as if it's different from a bunch of individuals making and reacting to decisions/actions. Biker boy and this thread ARE society. Once you separate society from the situation of the individual then we are in danger of dehumanising our position i.e. treating people like numbers or even rats in a big experiment. Personally I'm glad that coppers can see that Biker Boy was right, because those individuals in that situation clearly deserved it.

Mike, what would you do? Ignore it because of your theories on society? I'd guess that you'd react somehow (maybe not punching) becuase deep down you'd know that was the right thing to do, just as the guys in the car knew it was the wrong thing to do.

passout

PS Didn't you know, Society is Dead?

penugent

mikedobson wrote:

. You guys deserve what you get. You hit, they hit, we all hit. Great.

I take great exception to this statement.

I abhore violence. I have never iniated a violent interaction in my life and I have walked this world for quite a few decades.

That said, I would defend to the bitter end my just right to hit back if someone attacks me. I would be most unhappy if I were to be put into the situation where I felt the need to take such action. However, in the world I find myself I think asserting ones position to the point of naked aggression is sometimes necessary and effective; even though it is loathsome.

cee

I was burgled once and happened to catch the chap (he had left his methodone prescription in the back garden with his name and address on it, so came back to get it!!)

Anyway, I grabbed him, slammed him against the wall and told him that he had 2 choices....

1. Show me where he had dumped the stuff and you can have your script (I had already torn off the label with the identifying details on it)
2. Get all smashed up, then have me stand on his testicles until the police arrived.

Imagine my surprise when he chose option 1.

So....round corner under bush heres the stuff.....heres the script......byebye.

I got home and called the police, who were at the door pretty quickly, followed almost immediately by a forensics team. They all laughed a lot when I recounted the full tale and produced the script label.

The Sergeant asked me if I had given him a doing or not..... I was honest and said I did grab him two handed by the t-shirt and ram him into a wall, then a little dig in the ribs just to start the negotiation properly. I did this as I was nervous that he might have knife or a funny idea and wanted to assert a position of power. The sargeant said 'fair enough....I'd have smashed the b*stard'......

mikedobson

passout wrote:

Mike said, "Love the assertion that a favourable outcome is one you can get away with. And did I notice a few policemen on here supporting the reaction? Interesting. If the guardians of the law support violent retaliation and a favourable outcome is one you can get away with what a lovely country this will be!"

Well only an idiot thinks that getting caught is better! But that's not what I'm saying; Biker boy may well get away with it but another cyclist may get it in the neck. And besides, is violent retaliation always so wrong and in which countries wouldn't it be supported by most people? I think that if you go to Italy, Turkey, wherevever you'll find that Biker boys actions get as much, if not more, support than they did here - it's nothing to do with the state of the UK. However I bet they have less people throwing things at you in those two particular countires.

Also you talk about society as if it's different from a bunch of individuals making and reacting to decisions/actions. Biker boy and this thread ARE society. Once you separate society from the situation of the individual then we are in danger of dehumanising our position i.e. treating people like numbers or even rats in a big experiment. Personally I'm glad that coppers can see that Biker Boy was right, because those individuals in that situation clearly deserved it.

Mike, what would you do? Ignore it because of your theories on society? I'd guess that you'd react somehow (maybe not punching) becuase deep down you'd know that was the right thing to do, just as the guys in the car knew it was the wrong thing to do.

As my previous posts say, I would report it. And if I found no satisfaction from the officer to whom I reported it I would continue reporting it until I did. And if every one did the same eventually the climate would change.

Couple of points; you say those individuals in that situation clearly deserved it (being punched). Sure about that? What proof exists that the original beer can throwing incident was deliberate, or carried out by the person subsequently hit or perhaps happened under duress. That's one of the problems with ad hoc retaliation carried out on the hoof, often times it's just not appropriate. Again, that's what the law is there for.

The punshment for throwing a can at someone - an assault - as administered through the courts could range from a fine/caution through to minor custodial depending on the proof offered by the prosecution during any trial or procedure. If actual bodily harm was done, ie if the impact and shock caused our friend to fall or crash it would be within the prosecution's right to press for criminal damage to be thrown in as well. In such a case the assailant, once convicted, could be looking at up to 10 years in clink. Now that starts to look like a fairly severe punishment to me in any event and certainly more so than receiving a smack in the gob. So in terms of what they deserved, the options open to the judiciary are way in excess of what can be dished out at the roadside.

Also, the person who threw the can - should it be proved - may well have some previous cycle related miscreance. If that's the case then the can incident if reported would act as the alerter to get this person dealt with. If he isn't reported guess what? Next day he's free to do exactly the same things he's already done, only the next time he'll make an extra effort to get away quicker.

Also also, our friend, by his own admission DID act ilegally in striking out whereas until proven the punchee did not. There may well exist a shadow website forum somewhere in which fellow can throwers are prevailing upon this guy to get legal on our friend's ass. And he'd be within his rights so to do. So again, reporting the incident is the smart move.

And all this before you get into any ad hominem dilution of my "ideas of society" which, if any one's at all interested can be distilled down to respect eachother and if all else fails use the well conceived, highly logical, intelligently designed powers at your disposal in order to have put right that which you suffered and add to the common good.

Three hundred years ago anyone criticising slavery would have been considered a liberal tree hugger. We do have it within us the ability to change things. If we don't use it we should not be surprised that beer cans get thrown.

Peace. I mean it, peace.

Off for a ride. Hope I don't meet any chavs.

Bikerbaboon

mikedobson wrote:

passout wrote:

Mike said, "Love the assertion that a favourable outcome is one you can get away with. And did I notice a few policemen on here supporting the reaction? Interesting. If the guardians of the law support violent retaliation and a favourable outcome is one you can get away with what a lovely country this will be!"

Well only an idiot thinks that getting caught is better! But that's not what I'm saying; Biker boy may well get away with it but another cyclist may get it in the neck. And besides, is violent retaliation always so wrong and in which countries wouldn't it be supported by most people? I think that if you go to Italy, Turkey, wherevever you'll find that Biker boys actions get as much, if not more, support than they did here - it's nothing to do with the state of the UK. However I bet they have less people throwing things at you in those two particular countires.

Also you talk about society as if it's different from a bunch of individuals making and reacting to decisions/actions. Biker boy and this thread ARE society. Once you separate society from the situation of the individual then we are in danger of dehumanising our position i.e. treating people like numbers or even rats in a big experiment. Personally I'm glad that coppers can see that Biker Boy was right, because those individuals in that situation clearly deserved it.

Mike, what would you do? Ignore it because of your theories on society? I'd guess that you'd react somehow (maybe not punching) becuase deep down you'd know that was the right thing to do, just as the guys in the car knew it was the wrong thing to do.

As my previous posts say, I would report it. And if I found no satisfaction from the officer to whom I reported it I would continue reporting it until I did. And if every one did the same eventually the climate would change.

Couple of points; you say those individuals in that situation clearly deserved it (being punched). Sure about that? What proof exists that the original beer can throwing incident was deliberate, or carried out by the person subsequently hit or perhaps happened under duress. That's one of the problems with ad hoc retaliation carried out on the hoof, often times it's just not appropriate. Again, that's what the law is there for.

The punshment for throwing a can at someone - an assault - as administered through the courts could range from a fine/caution through to minor custodial depending on the proof offered by the prosecution during any trial or procedure. If actual bodily harm was done, ie if the impact and shock caused our friend to fall or crash it would be within the prosecution's right to press for criminal damage to be thrown in as well. In such a case the assailant, once convicted, could be looking at up to 10 years in clink. Now that starts to look like a fairly severe punishment to me in any event and certainly more so than receiving a smack in the gob. So in terms of what they deserved, the options open to the judiciary are way in excess of what can be dished out at the roadside.

Also, the person who threw the can - should it be proved - may well have some previous cycle related miscreance. If that's the case then the can incident if reported would act as the alerter to get this person dealt with. If he isn't reported guess what? Next day he's free to do exactly the same things he's already done, only the next time he'll make an extra effort to get away quicker.

Also also, our friend, by his own admission DID act ilegally in striking out whereas until proven the punchee did not. There may well exist a shadow website forum somewhere in which fellow can throwers are prevailing upon this guy to get legal on our friend's ass. And he'd be within his rights so to do. So again, reporting the incident is the smart move.

And all this before you get into any ad hominem dilution of my "ideas of society" which, if any one's at all interested can be distilled down to respect eachother and if all else fails use the well conceived, highly logical, intelligently designed powers at your disposal in order to have put right that which you suffered and add to the common good.

Three hundred years ago anyone criticising slavery would have been considered a liberal tree hugger. We do have it within us the ability to change things. If we don't use it we should not be surprised that beer cans get thrown.

Peace. I mean it, peace.

Off for a ride. Hope I don't meet any chavs.

I wish i lived in your world where the police could get the backing they needed to get the convictions and the courts are not given gidance to hand out lighter and lighter sentancing for all but the worst crimes.
I have had bottles through my windows we had dna of the guy that chucked the bottle and his and only his prints on the bottle. His statement read " it was not me" and they let him go.

i see that one as me 0 chav 1

but if i was given 10 min with him and a lump hammer im shure that he would never through a bottle through another window.

punishments need to be a deterant from people commiting the crimes and they are not its a joke. some prisons are nicer than my home, they get free living while in the clink as well as acsess to free job training.
i want to be a gas engineer and the training for that is going to be anything up to 4k but if i was to go beat up an old lady and pinch her pension i would get free living for 12months and then the free training ohhhhh and once i was out i would be slef employed and on twice the wage im on now...... yep i can see why crime does not pay.... /rant


well im off my soap box and off for a ride, i hope i dont meet any chavs

passout

Mike,

You are obviously a bright bloke but I fear that you actually expect the law to deliver justice. Now of course it should and often does but much of the time it just doesn't. People deliver justice, through the law or otherwise. Laws are often meaningless - look at Fox Hunting. Anway, you make some fair points but I still think that this action justifies the reaction.

kernowrob99

I have had the abuse the fag buts (usually still smoldering) and more often than not the trying to run me off the road from these sort of people.

My faourite response which again is very irresponisble for several reasons - retaliation, criminal damage etc... has been to pull along side in heavy traffic and tilt my bars so their wing mirror gets aload of my brake levers or the edge of the bar itself... I think of it as subtle enough to under questioning by the rozzers be able to claim as totally accidental...

Last time this happened the young boy racer in his souped up Nova decided to get all mouthy and offer to teach me a lesson - now I am a former rugby player so whilst I may not look it on the bike I am quite well built (shall we say)!!

So as we were stopped at a junction I parked my bike and made my way to accept this chap's challenge only to see him hop back into his car and drive off as fast as he could...

Obviously I was lucky that what got out of the car was a) not armed, b) alone ... we are talking about Birmingham here so depending on where you are a knife or a gun is not out of the question, but I guess its only a matter of time before I get the Mitchell brothers and get a right kicking.

I suppose what I am saying is - we all want that immediate I'll show you justice and because most of us have got away with it so we think its ok - but sooner or later it will back fire on us - so we really need to calm it down...

Cougar

Many years ago I was crossing the road as a pedestrian and a car came whizzing around the bend and hooted me like mad even though I was nearly on the pavement and could not have held him up. It scared me a bit so I watched him drive on and further down the road saw that he parked up.

I went up to the car and tapped on his window which he wound down. I then punched him full in the face - wallop.

Now the thing is that I didn't really get a good swing at him because it was through the window. My point is that having done this myself i can't see how you could have hit him very effectively whilst sitting on a bike, what with the balancing and the leaning over. By the way I'm not proud of what i did and if it happened now I would just call him a stupid tosser and walk away.

chuckcork

My two cents worth....been a long time since I had something thrown at me, unfortunately not so long since I've had the abuse, usually from immature children (I count those in there 20's, 30's or older than I am as immature children if this is their behaviour).

I personally take the cowards route and just give them the middle finger, but philosophically or as an uncle told me, when some tosser was giving him grief on the road, well he wasn't going to get into a fight with them.

He left the army (SAS?, Para's? Can't remember) as a Major so could probably kill with his bare hands just about any stupid f*cker who tried to take him on, and this was in his 60's.

But his point was, sure enough he could, but wasn't going to decend to their knuckle dragging level, and fight with common hooligans. He had experience of fighting armed men using serious weapons with intent against him and his troops, and possibly killing a few of them either way, so he had rather a grasp of the patheic nature of those giving him grief.

And he was above it.

I certainly wouldn't expect contacting the police to result in anything useful with mere attempted assault with a weapon (can of coke or similar), after all they're hands are pretty much tied by the legal system, but unless you or your family are actually being threatened with harm, ignore it. There is really no point in punching the stupid f*ckers lights out as fun as it might be, you'll find yousrelf in the nick instead.

Though of course you could ring the local cops and report a shooting, that might get them to show up in under two hours, more like two minutes, they tend to take that seriously....

cee

chuckcork wrote:

Though of course you could ring the local cops and report a shooting, that might get them to show up in under two hours, more like two minutes, they tend to take that seriously....

I would have thought that making a false claim about a shooting would be taken more seriously than punching some cormorant in the face, who had just thrown a can at you.

Obviously we can't go around smacking heads every time we feel like it.....but i firmly believe that bullies should be stood up to. Like many of the anecdotes here, it seems that even inviting them to have a chat seems to get them to run away most of the time.

The chap you know who was the major, may not feel as threatened as the majority of folks (given the experience you suggest), thus giving him a perspective different to most of us. And I would wager that if it came to the nitty gritty, he would finish it with righteous efficiency.