Now Ricco gets busted for EPO

cougie

We've been playing spot the doper for a while now though havent we ?

Any outstanding performance and we start to suspect. Sad eh ?

robmanic1

Very true, I'm rooting for the lantern-rouge from now on

attica

So go on then, point the finger, who else looks dodgy?

Jens Voigt and Cancellara for their turns at the front the other day?
Cav with his unnaturally fast finish (god I hope not)?

Who else?

meagain

"the watershed "

Doubt that many of them are on just water....

Does the break with the archaic, wrong-headed, plain anti-innovation, UCI mean that could now have race(s) where ONLY technical restriction is "two wheels and human-powered"? Instead of limiting competing machinery to what is in essence a 100 year old design/technology?

Now THAT would be so good.

cougie

I'm pretty happy with the technical rules to be honest - at least you know theres not much difference between the bikes. It would be rubbish if one team had an advantage just because they had patented something clever.

(British Track cycling team is excluded from this) :shock:

meagain

It would be rubbish if one team had an advantage

No, it would drag the technology forward and away from the early 20th century, where the UCI has steadfastly kept it. As has been said before, if the UCI ran motor sport we'd still all be driving Model Ts.

Cumulonimbus

Attica wrote:

So go on then, point the finger, who else looks dodgy?

Jens Voigt and Cancellara for their turns at the front the other day?

Voigt hadnt really done that much in the race so far. Cancellara had had a disappointing TT but is a fast rider on the flat. He can climb a bit and being in the break was what allowed him to be in position on the Tourmalet descent. In that breakaway he wasnt able to keep pace on the tourmalet climb with some people who are not good climbers - this may have been partly because he wanted to be on the front of the peloton at the start of the descent though.

Attica wrote:

Cav with his unnaturally fast finish (god I hope not)?

Who else?

I try to tell myself that all his work on the track has paid dividends*. He needs a lead-out IMO and if it was a really scrappy finish then i dont think he would have the roadcraft to win consistently. Also in this tour he is almost last. This is in large part because as soon as the road goes up he knows he cant win and so takes it easy to the end. Men like Freire, Hushovd and Zabel can climb and so both put in big efforts to stay with the group on the rolling stages and then have more sprints at the finish. This means Cavendish is a bit fresher when the sprints come along. At least, thats me trying to put one side of the argument across

attica

Good answer Cumulonimbus

Perhaps Cav is on a more specialised "sprinters" doping regime.

(I am gonna hate myself if I'm right - I'm just playing devil's advocate you understand)

ddraver

Cancellara and Voight both died after they dropped off as well....knowing they had a day off the next day. F Schleck also looked absoloutly knackered as he crossed the line with his shirt open and his head wobbling around etc

what is suspicous is when someone (ricco was a perfect example) rides off the front of a group of the best riders in the world looking like he's freewheeling through the park whilst they all look like death......

blazing_saddles

The cobra tests positive, with his usual awful ITT, but as yet, could clear control for his stage wins. I'm sure we'll find out in time.
Cholet threw up all sorts of quandaries.
Why didn't Cancellara ease to the expected victory?
Many suspect Schumacher was doped, but none suspect Kirchen, though the former is the better trialist. The PR power of the "team monitoring" policy, or simply, the German's clouded past?
Few have raise an eyebrow and connected Fabian's low key performance to 4 dope tests in 4 days.
Come the mountains.
TV pundits have pointed accusatory fingers at Valverde and Cunego for passed indiscretions, when looking a reason for their implosion on the Tourmalet.
Others have searched forum threads, searching for an alternative theory for Jen Voigt's demolition of the same riders.
Mountain goats become the scapegoats. Will Peopoli and Cobo end up CERA'd?

The doping riddle continues to wrap us in that enigma, where little can be accepted on face value.

campagsarge

The problem now is that no one really believes the performances of the riders. The posts on here are proving that. With that being the case, how credible is the event that we are now watching?

OffTheBackAdam

leguape wrote:

Given that in any medical trial which is done blind you are going to need to be able to identify which patients have been given the test dose and who has been given the placebo, I'd imagine that there's pretty solid science behind being able to identify the use of not of a synthetic substance, or distinct markers left by it's use.

That's done by allocating each patient a specific code number, that neither patient nor the triallists know relates to the active or control/placebo group until the trial is completed and the code is revealed by an independant authority.
Companies will have tests available, if possible, to measure peak levels etc, but usually produce a special batch that is radio-labelled, rather than a specific test for the molecule, especially for products that are/virtually are structurally identical to naturally occuring proteins. That was the big delay in a test for EPO, test you or me and we'd come up positive, because we produce EPO continually, unless we've got renal failure.
Micera's advantage over the older forms is that the benefits of a single injection will last for 2-4 weeks, against the need for injections every 2-3 days for the first gen products (Eprex & Recormon) or every week or 2 for Dynepo.
I sold Recormon as a rep from '91-95, the use of it for doping was a damned nuissance as far as the company was concerned, as it delayed launch of a more user-friendly presentation by many months.
Products used in clinical trials are very closely monitored by the companies involved, the quantities are very small and the records kept are closely scrutinised, so it'd be very difficult to have any syphoned off for non-trial reasons.

dave_1

ban him for life...and Gianetti and the dodgy pantani soignuer should not be allowed near riders...I am so pleased ricco has been taken down...scum bag

sicrow

jimmythecuckoo wrote:

Does anyone think we may have finally reached the watershed for the Tour?

Sadly not a chance, the money's too great the punishment on the body is too great and there will always be a cheat so it will continue as a game for years to come just a shame we seem to get more of it in cycling than in other sports

FYI though 3 of the last 4 Olympic gold 100m sprinters have tested positive so at 75% maybe we aren't the worst - scant consolation I know

ms_tree

oily sailor wrote:

Didn't Millar complain to the UCI about Saunier Duval when he was there. Perhaps he had knowledge of the all-new EPO that was being used.

Remember Ricco's reaction in Procycling when interviewed last season. Raged up when interviewer brought up Millar's modern crusade.

I've always found Miller 2-faced over SD (never been a fan anyway). They were the only ones that offered him a contract , weren't they? so he took their money.

ms_tree

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Are CSC, Astana and the others with "medical programmes" spotless?

I'm afraid for Ricco, because he is a candidate to go the way of Pantani; outspoken, a bit tormented by failure and an overiding drive to win. .

Yes, I agree. Heaven forbid that he does, but if he does, I won't be visiting his grave.

dave_1

Ms Tree wrote:

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Are CSC, Astana and the others with "medical programmes" spotless?

I'm afraid for Ricco, because he is a candidate to go the way of Pantani; outspoken, a bit tormented by failure and an overiding drive to win. .

Yes, I agree. Heaven forbid that he does, but if he does, I won't be visiting his grave.

I have no pity for Ricco...a nasty 23 year old doper who talks rubbish and cheats us all...it is so good he is down and no way shoudl saunier duval be allowed out of the jails cells they should be in right at the minute until they name names and sources..they are a scourge. Take Liquigas down too I think...they have no respect for the rules and show their attitude to doping with the Basso signing...remove Barloworld and Liquigas from TDF!

Kléber

oily sailor wrote:

Didn't Millar complain to the UCI about Saunier Duval when he was there. Perhaps he had knowledge of the all-new EPO that was being used.

The rumours say he helped to get Iban Mayo caught. Not sure if that's true but it is hard to judge Millar without knowing the facts. He can't turn up and grass up the whole team.

But the likes of Algeri, Gianetti, Fernandez and others have such a chequered past. Prudhomme today said "you could take their [SD] withdrawal today as a guilty plea". It's quite possible the fireworks from Piepoli and Cobo were artificial, no doubt they will be tested soon, as will the third place finisher, Frank Schleck.

blazing_saddles

Part of a piece from CNs:-
Daniel Friebe: In the last twenty minutes we've heard that Riccardo Riccò has tested positive for an EPO-like product. The early reports suggest that Riccò used CERA or Micera, a so-called third generation EPO. What's your reaction?

Michel Audran: Wow. I'm stunned. I'm amazed they're saying it's Micera, simply because there's no validated test for that yet. The World Anti-Doping Agency is working on a test, but it certainly doesn't exist yet.

Professor Michel Audran is one of the world's leading experts on blood doping. He is also one of nine independent experts chosen to act as consultants in the formulation of the UCI's biological passport.

So are we heading for a ban or a get out of jail card? :?

meagain

WTF does it all matter? It's only a game. It's not important.

I ride a bicycle - doesn't mean I "dope" (well, not in the Tour sense and not these days), doesn't worry me in the slightest when professional cyclists do.

I ride a bike - doesn't mean I bite the heads off women and rape chickens. But then it does worry me when full-patchers do!

squired

If there are riders who may have this drug in their system and are thus worried about being tested I can imagine them either becoming very low-profile for the rest of the race (no stage wins), or even withdrawing. With no bonus seconds in the race you can come up there on a stage, but keep yourself off the automatic testing list.

The only withdrawl today other than the SD boys was another Barloworld rider....

Even if he isn't on anything now, the odds are that Piepoli either was on something, or knew about people using drugs earlier in his career. Lets face it, he has ridden through some of the peak doping years. I would be disappointed though, as I think he is a fantastic rider and a true pure climber.

What worries me is that we are only up to test results from stage 4. They even released the details of the two positives from that stage on different days. God knows how many more could come out over the next 2 weeks.

Names we can presumably rule out as being ok, as they won the first 4 stages:

Valverde
Hushovd
Dumoulin
Schumacher

I guess we will know for certain that Cav came though ok by the end of the weekend, although I'd be totally surprised if he had any problems.

DaveyL

From http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/to ... /jul18news

WADA ahead of the curve with Micera

By Laura Weislo

The World Anti-doping Agency (WADA) has been working with drug makers to develop new tests for potential performance enhancing drugs before they can make their way into the peloton, the agency spokesman told Cyclingnews Thursday.

That fact became clear when news broke that Riccardo Riccò had failed a doping control at the Tour, and it was revealed that the drug which was found in his system was a third-generation EPO with the trade name Micera. The drug, also known generically as CERA (Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator), only came out in the United States last year, and was made available in Europe at the start of 2008.

CERA is the latest form of EPO, and is similar to the previous drugs, except that it is connected to a chemical called polyethylene glycol (PEG), which makes it last longer in the body. The drug was rumoured to be blocked from the kidneys due to its size and therefore undetectable by urine-based doping controls.

WADA's spokesman, Frédéric Donzé, said that the news of Ricco's positive test "is a further indication that the net is closing on those athletes who still take the risk to dope".

Donzé revealed that the agency had worked with the drug's manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, to learn of new potentially performance enhancing agents and to develop tests for them before they can enter the market and be used by athletes.

"This case shows the significant work that WADA conducts in anticipating doping trends, including by closely cooperating with pharmaceutical companies at very early stages of the development of molecules or substances for therapeutic purposes to develop detection methods for anti-doping purposes.

"WADA is very much aware of the development of new EPOs and bio-similar EPOs in an expanding market," he said. "A number of these new EPOs and bio similar EPOs are well known and can be detected through current tests."

He was able to confirm that co-operation in the case of Micera has enabled its detection by WADA-accredited laboratories. "Thanks to the co-operation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it.

"WADA will continue to further enhance its detection methods for EPO as it does with every test, in order to further maximize chances of catching cheaters."

Maybe even the expert bikeradar got their quote from was unaware of WADA's work on this. If so, they have really pulled a fast one, and I would recommend they test at least the top 20 GC riders ASAP, or as many riders as they financially and logistically can afford to do.

RichN95.

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Why didn't Cancellara ease to the expected victory?
Many suspect Schumacher was doped, but none suspect Kirchen, though the former is the better trialist. The PR power of the "team monitoring" policy, or simply, the German's clouded past?
Few have raise an eyebrow and connected Fabian's low key performance to 4 dope tests in 4 days.

Surprisingly though, given his reputation, that was Cancellara's best ever result in a Tour TT (excluding prologues)

dave_1

squired wrote:

If there are riders who may have this drug in their system and are thus worried about being tested I can imagine them either becoming very low-profile for the rest of the race (no stage wins), or even withdrawing. With no bonus seconds in the race you can come up there on a stage, but keep yourself off the automatic testing list.

The only withdrawl today other than the SD boys was another Barloworld rider....

Even if he isn't on anything now, the odds are that Piepoli either was on something, or knew about people using drugs earlier in his career. Lets face it, he has ridden through some of the peak doping years. I would be disappointed though, as I think he is a fantastic rider and a true pure climber.

What worries me is that we are only up to test results from stage 4. They even released the details of the two positives from that stage on different days. God knows how many more could come out over the next 2 weeks.

Names we can presumably rule out as being ok, as they won the first 4 stages:

Valverde
Hushovd
Dumoulin
Schumacher

I guess we will know for certain that Cav came though ok by the end of the weekend, although I'd be totally surprised if he had any problems.

cunego and Valverde are simply clean bench marks...were they on the stuff...we'd see them higher up.

davelakers

DaveyL wrote:

From http://www.cyclingnews.com/road/2008/to ... /jul18news

WADA ahead of the curve with Micera

By Laura Weislo

The World Anti-doping Agency (WADA) has been working with drug makers to develop new tests for potential performance enhancing drugs before they can make their way into the peloton, the agency spokesman told Cyclingnews Thursday.

That fact became clear when news broke that Riccardo Riccò had failed a doping control at the Tour, and it was revealed that the drug which was found in his system was a third-generation EPO with the trade name Micera. The drug, also known generically as CERA (Continuous Erythropoietin Receptor Activator), only came out in the United States last year, and was made available in Europe at the start of 2008.

CERA is the latest form of EPO, and is similar to the previous drugs, except that it is connected to a chemical called polyethylene glycol (PEG), which makes it last longer in the body. The drug was rumoured to be blocked from the kidneys due to its size and therefore undetectable by urine-based doping controls.

WADA's spokesman, Frédéric Donzé, said that the news of Ricco's positive test "is a further indication that the net is closing on those athletes who still take the risk to dope".

Donzé revealed that the agency had worked with the drug's manufacturer, Roche Pharmaceuticals, to learn of new potentially performance enhancing agents and to develop tests for them before they can enter the market and be used by athletes.

"This case shows the significant work that WADA conducts in anticipating doping trends, including by closely cooperating with pharmaceutical companies at very early stages of the development of molecules or substances for therapeutic purposes to develop detection methods for anti-doping purposes.

"WADA is very much aware of the development of new EPOs and bio-similar EPOs in an expanding market," he said. "A number of these new EPOs and bio similar EPOs are well known and can be detected through current tests."

He was able to confirm that co-operation in the case of Micera has enabled its detection by WADA-accredited laboratories. "Thanks to the co-operation of the manufacturer of this substance (Roche) and of WADA-accredited laboratories, WADA received the molecule well in advance and was able to develop ways to detect it.

"WADA will continue to further enhance its detection methods for EPO as it does with every test, in order to further maximize chances of catching cheaters."

Maybe even the expert bikeradar got their quote from was unaware of WADA's work on this. If so, they have really pulled a fast one, and I would recommend they test at least the top 20 GC riders ASAP, or as many riders as they financially and logistically can afford to do.

Brilliant!!!!

They didnt see that coming...............

oily sailor

Dave_1 wrote:

cunego and Valverde are simply clean bench marks...were they on the stuff...we'd see them higher up.

You're right Dave and what a curious world it is when Valverde is now a clean benchmark. I'd quite like him to storm back (within reason of course).

dave_1

oily sailor wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

cunego and Valverde are simply clean bench marks...were they on the stuff...we'd see them higher up.

You're right Dave and what a curious world it is when Valverde is now a clean benchmark. I'd quite like him to storm back (within reason of course).

indeed...perhaps we will see a fair TDF result?

josd

Blazing Saddles wrote:

Part of a piece from CNs:-
Daniel Friebe: In the last twenty minutes we've heard that Riccardo Riccò has tested positive for an EPO-like product. The early reports suggest that Riccò used CERA or Micera, a so-called third generation EPO. What's your reaction?

Michel Audran: Wow. I'm stunned. I'm amazed they're saying it's Micera, simply because there's no validated test for that yet. The World Anti-Doping Agency is working on a test, but it certainly doesn't exist yet.

Professor Michel Audran is one of the world's leading experts on blood doping. He is also one of nine independent experts chosen to act as consultants in the formulation of the UCI's biological passport.

So are we heading for a ban or a get out of jail card? :?

nah according to bikeradar actually he was charged for EPO, whcih they must have caught him with recently
but additionally they had detected 3rd generation EPO after the stage 4 time trial

Noodley

I no longer need 'proof' to the extent of a rider being found 'guilty' within the current regulations to form an opinion about who I think is clean. My list of 'not clean' grows ever longer...my list of currently clean riders includes a few who were previously on my not clean list.

All those who cry 'prove it' can feck off...(sorry for being rude :oops: )

The Festina article in ProCycling this month has a quote I'd like to apply here:
'they cover their eyes, block their ears and shut their mouths'

iainf72

Ricco is denying using EPO and is "tranquilo" in his prison cell.