Weights and cycling.

Tonymufc

Hi guys, new to the forum so hello to you all. I've recently come back to road cycling (I did manchester to blackpool yesterday) after a bit of a lay off. I started to go to the gym and forgot about my beautiful trek. Anyway my question is I want to alter my weight training in order to aid me on the bike so does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do in the gym to combine the two. cheers Tony.

idaviesmoore

The usual suspects:-

1. Lunges
2. Squats
3. Leg Extension-as long as you haven't got knee problems
4. Leg curl- (as above with injury caution) particularly 'seated leg curl' if your gym has one. It's more specific.
5. Dead Lift-as long as you have no diagnosed lower back problems

As your neuromuscular system adapts ask your instructor about some power exercises

1. Clean
2. Plyo Squats
3. Walking lunges

If prescribed correctly you'll develope power quite quickly.

N.B If you haven't tried power exercises before DO NOT attempt unless you have an instructor who knows how to warm you up and who can prescibe the correct workload.

Try Pilates if your gym runs classes. You may be surrounded by a few girls but it'll really help your stabilization and hip strength.

Don't forsake upperbody exercises altogether as you need strength for climbing and breaking away.

Floor based abdominal work is HIGHLY overated and will compromise your back. Again ask your instructor for more Pilates based exercises or asI've said, seek out a class.

Hope I don't sound to pompous and I hope that helps

Tonymufc

I already do alot of the exercise you suggest, so I suppose I'm not to far off the mark. Cheers mate. P.s. how often would you reccomend this type of workout.

NJK

idaviesmoore wrote:

The usual suspects:-

1. Lunges
2. Squats
3. Leg Extension-as long as you haven't got knee problems
4. Leg curl- (as above with injury caution) particularly 'seated leg curl' if your gym has one. It's more specific.
5. Dead Lift-as long as you have no diagnosed lower back problems

As your neuromuscular system adapts ask your instructor about some power exercises

1. Clean
2. Plyo Squats
3. Walking lunges

If prescribed correctly you'll develope power quite quickly.

N.B If you haven't tried power exercises before DO NOT attempt unless you have an instructor who knows how to warm you up and who can prescibe the correct workload.

Try Pilates if your gym runs classes. You may be surrounded by a few girls but it'll really help your stabilization and hip strength.

Don't forsake upperbody exercises altogether as you need strength for climbing and breaking away.
Floor based abdominal work is HIGHLY overated and will compromise your back. Again ask your instructor for more Pilates based exercises or asI've said, seek out a class.

Hope I don't sound to pompous and I hope that helps

Piepoli's and Ricco's upper body look strong. :?:

BeaconRuth

Tonymufc wrote:

Anyway my question is I want to alter my weight training in order to aid me on the bike so does anyone have any suggestions as to what I can do in the gym to combine the two. cheers Tony.

I'm afraid the best thing you can do in a gym to improve your cycling is to get on an exercise bike or spinning bike. Road cycling is an aerobic endurance sport, so you need to train your cycling muscles (ie. legs) and your general aerobic energy systems to function efficiently with the specific action of pedalling a bike.

If you want to use weights then the best way to combine the gym time with cycling is to spend half your gym time pumping iron and half of it on an exercise bike. Better still, spend 80% of your time on the bike and 20% pumping iron.

Ruth

idaviesmoore

Depends on your training schedule. An instructor will help timetable.

Leg exercises are quite demanding and there is always a risk of delayed muscle soreness afterwards. This may interfere with your other training if you are too sore.

Twice a week is ample but if you move towards more power biased exercises once a week is enough. The possibility of injury is greatly increased with this type of exercise.

If you want some really up to date training methods visit Peakperformance's web site. It's quite cheap to subscribe and they've got some really knowledgable contributors.

As I said, keep with upperbody stuff. If you use freeweight rather than machines then you will be utilising your abdominal muscles and back.

Good luck

Tonymufc

Cheers for all the advice guys much appreciated, and early impressions are that this is a cracking forum. Cheers Tony.

Ric_Stern/RST

+1 for Ruth's comments and NJK's. Except, i'd add: do 100% on an exercise bike in the gym, it'll be much better (than weights) for your cycling. See http://cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=strengthstern for an overview

ric

SteveR_100Milers

I have just started reading Thomas Chapple's book "Base Building for Cyclists" that might help. Its all about developing a base aerobic foundation which as I have found this year is somewhat important if you want to go consistently fast(er).

Alex_Simmons/RST

Strength is not a limiter for cycling. Unless you are a track match sprinter or kilo rider who needs to blast hard from a standing start.

I thought it interesting to note that on my 2nd outdoor ride on Sunday (since my accident 15 months ago), I managed to ride an hour with an Average Power >180 watts (and a Normalised Power >190W).

I was also able to do a 7-min effort >250W on my first outdoor ride a couple of days before this. This is about 4 weeks since first trying to pedal on a home trainer and 2 weeks since getting a cycle leg attachment.*

Yet I am only just strong enough to be able to walk up stairs unaided (on left leg that is). I can do it but slowly and carefully.

One might conclude that my limited strength (i.e. that maximal force exerted by a muscle/group of muscles) is not holding me back. I certainly won't be wasting time doing weight training while I make my return to riding, training and racing.


* for those who may not know, I became a below left knee amputee after a cycling training accident last year.

SunWuKong

How's your new leg working out Alex?

New to the forum and coming on with a weights question next it will be shimano or campag'?

Alex_Simmons/RST

SunWuKong wrote:

How's your new leg working out Alex?

New to the forum and coming on with a weights question next it will be shimano or campag'?

Going well thanks.

Did an hour with 2 x 10 min TT intervals @ 190W on the home trainer tonight.

I also managed to do a couple of pedal strokes standing up. I haven't been able to do that so far, it requires a bit of a different technique I am having to re-learn (on my left side I have my cleat placement effectively directly under where my ankle would be if it were there).

So happy with progress.

I was going to race a crit this weekend but I just remembered I'm coaching at an intro to track session for Masters Women, so that will have to wait another week.

SunWuKong

Good stuff. The leg looks cool. I love your drive for innovation to get an effective and efficient solution. Keep blogging!

There's a French guy who rides the etape who's an amputee below the knee on the right. In 2005 he beat me. I had a bit of a chat with him this year.

Doobz

There is a really good section on weight training for the upper body at the following link about halfway through the PDF

http://www.tourofireland.eu/daveLloydTraining.pdf

Enjoy

Ric_Stern/RST

Dave is wrong. There really aren't any good weight exercises for cyclists (at least trained endurance cyclists). There's not a single piece of evidence to support his sggestion "that you need a strong upper body". I don't know whether he's looked at some pro cyclists, but looking at riders like Riccardo Ricco and the Schlek's etc. it is somewhat apparent that these athletes are neither strong, nor large.

Ric

Doobz

I don't think you are right either

the guy was asking for advice on what weight training to do. Not about what coaches "knew" or apparently know.

I am pretty sure that the different types of training listed in that pdf are a step in the right direction. If the OP "wants" to go out and do some weight training then thats a step in the right direction.

I hardly expect him to not do it because some dude on a forum posts a few links here and there saying he doesn't need to.

SunWuKong

Come on Ric your just a "Sports Scientist"! Have you ever trained with a World Championship Boxer? We all know sit-ups with your hands behind your ears is the best way to train the core.

On a serious note I read that training pdf a while ago and thought the weights bit to be really quite poor. Strength and size don't have to go together in that you can train to get stronger without become large. But you have to ask why you would want to do weights and which exercise, number of sets, reps, load and volume.

Doobz

lol get over yourselves.. Manchester to Blackpool?? I hardly think the guy needs a Sports Scientist..

SunWuKong

Not saying he does. But as much as I respect DL's achievements I think his section on weight training to be quite poor.

If the weight training is to improve performance on the bike then how exactly will a specific exercise movement, load, etc help? I'm not saying that can't happen but will bench press, tricep press, bicep curl, shoulder press, lateral raises, lateral pulls, peck deck, crunches and sit-ups be the best way forward? Why the reduction in reps but increase in weight? If the volume is remaining the same what is the physiological stimulus for development? I'm not sure what he's trying to develop. If the OP already does weights then holding the bars for climbing, sprinting or steering isn't likely to be a performance limiter.

If weights are going to be done anyway I would suggest something along the line of Mark Vestegen's core performance as a better option. Lots of compound movements. I wouldn't go to a champion weight lifter (or boxer) for cycling advice. I also wouldn't go to cycling champion for weight training advice unless they could explain exactly why I would want to carry out that training and what benefits it has.

Jonathan15

I doubt any of us are world champions so why should we train as if we are. Trying different things out is fun and may well help you perform better on the bike!

Tonymufc

Now then people this has opened a right can of worms hasn't it. Here is my train of thought. After several months of weight training (my legs were really strong when I went into the gym as I used ride with a club and get in some serious mileage) quite heavy on my legs, as they were the strongest part of my body, I thought that with the extra muscle that would mean more blood would be circulating, so more oxygen would be being carried, so therefore more power, endurance etc, etc, etc. Also I have seen quite alot of books relating to weight training for cyclist. Now this maybe just a gimmic to sell books, however surely trying new things to make us better at ANYTHING is better than not trying at all. Once again though guys thanks for all the posts. Tony.

Ric_Stern/RST

no one is saying you can't try out various training ideas and methodologies. You can do what you like. However, i'm just trying to point out that it's unlikely that weight training will increase endurance cycling performance. In low fitness people weights are likely to help, but this is because in low fitness people any training stimulus is likely to help, rather than weights per se. On the other hand, even in low fitness people training on the bike is likely to give better biking results than other exercise modalities.

It's highly unlikely that someone is strength limited for endurance cycling performance. this is because, even at the very highest levels of the sport, the force requirements are very low. For e.g., to climb an alpine pass with the leaders in the TdF an average male (~70 kg) will require a force on the pedals of about 10 to 15 kg per leg. Obviously most people can generate that force (if you can't you wouldn't even be worried about cycling as you'd be unable to stand up). The force requirements in the upper body are harder to measure - however, given that each leg requirement is in the region of 10 to 15 kg, the forces at e.g. the handlebar when holding it, are going to be a whole lot less. Hence, pro cyclists (and many amateurs) look somewhat malnourished and underfat.

Of course many of us may need to do weights (etc) for other things, e.g. a manual job, to look muscular, or because cycling isn't that important to us. However, that isn't what DL is suggesting weights should be used for. Of course, if DL wants to put his faith in a coach who never even rode a bicycle, let alone understood the physiology and mechanics of cycling, and a boxer, then that's up to him.

Ric

Ric_Stern/RST

Tonymufc wrote:

Now then people this has opened a right can of worms hasn't it. Here is my train of thought. After several months of weight training (my legs were really strong when I went into the gym as I used ride with a club and get in some serious mileage) quite heavy on my legs, as they were the strongest part of my body, I thought that with the extra muscle that would mean more blood would be circulating, so more oxygen would be being carried, so therefore more power, endurance etc, etc, etc. Also I have seen quite alot of books relating to weight training for cyclist. Now this maybe just a gimmic to sell books, however surely trying new things to make us better at ANYTHING is better than not trying at all. Once again though guys thanks for all the posts. Tony.

"Extra muscle" (actually it's hypertrophy, rather than hyperplasia) is the opposite of what you want to occur. Not only is blood volume not increased, the diffusion distance for O2 from capillaries to the active cells increases, thus causing a decrease in aerobic performance. Blood volume is increased through aerobic training, along with shorter diffusion distances and increases in various aerobic machinery and cardiac functions.

Most books mention weights because weight training for cycling is an old wives tale and people keep propagating this information.

Ric

Tonymufc

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Tonymufc wrote:

Now then people this has opened a right can of worms hasn't it. Here is my train of thought. After several months of weight training (my legs were really strong when I went into the gym as I used ride with a club and get in some serious mileage) quite heavy on my legs, as they were the strongest part of my body, I thought that with the extra muscle that would mean more blood would be circulating, so more oxygen would be being carried, so therefore more power, endurance etc, etc, etc. Also I have seen quite alot of books relating to weight training for cyclist. Now this maybe just a gimmic to sell books, however surely trying new things to make us better at ANYTHING is better than not trying at all. Once again though guys thanks for all the posts. Tony.

"Extra muscle" (actually it's hypertrophy, rather than hyperplasia) is the opposite of what you want to occur. Not only is blood volume not increased, the diffusion distance for O2 from capillaries to the active cells increases, thus causing a decrease in aerobic performance. Blood volume is increased through aerobic training, along with shorter diffusion distances and increases in various aerobic machinery and cardiac functions.





Most books mention weights because weight training for cycling is an old wives tale and people keep propagating this information.

Ric

I guess thats answered that one then.

idaviesmoore

I KNOW leg strength exercises have helped my performance. Yes. of course riding more IS the most important thing but, I'm sorry, weight based leg exercise WILL help this rider as long as the programme is prepared correctly.

NJK

idaviesmoore wrote:

I KNOW leg strength exercises have helped my performance. Yes. of course riding more IS the most important thing but, I'm sorry, weight based leg exercise WILL help this rider as long as the programme is prepared correctly.

How have you come to this decision and how have decided that strength is his limiting factor?

idaviesmoore

"Limiting factors" notwithstanding, in my experience specific strength training always helps.

Ric_Stern/RST

idaviesmoore wrote:

"Limiting factors" notwithstanding, in my experience specific strength training always helps.

how does it help?

ric

idaviesmoore

Strengthens muscle, connective tissue et. al. Stronger muscle, stronger joints, less injury. Everyone's a winner

Ric_Stern/RST

idaviesmoore wrote:

Strengthens muscle, connective tissue et. al. Stronger muscle, stronger joints, less injury. Everyone's a winner

there isn't any evidence that being stronger prevents injury.

ric

DaveyL

My physio diagnosed my IT band problems as being partly down to weak glutes and weak/tight hamstrings. Is she full of it? I'd like to know as I sank a fair bit of dough into those sessions.