fuel duty, hope this is okay to put on here

OffTheBackAdam

MattBlackBigBoysBMX wrote:

whether I'm in my 3 litre V6 S type Jaguar or driving the 5 litre V8 M5 BMW

Oooooo, you'll have the "Car Drivers Are Evil" lynch-mob after you coming out with such heretical statements!
Any of the "You don't need private motorised transport" types here care to advise me how to get 3 horses, plus riders, fodder & tack to a competition 35 miles away, without using our 7.5 tonner horsebox?
Ditto for anyone who races bikes here, getting to a competition, say 50 miles away?
Doing the shopping for a familly and trying to get the cheap stuff that's only got a day or two's shelf life left?
Getting a teenage daughter to/from friends, when they live up to 15 miles away? and , no we don't get public transport around here.
I'm off to Egypt on holiday in 2 weeks, do you think that myself and the familly should sample the delights of Skegness instead?

nasahapley

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

Any of the "You don't need private motorised transport" types here care to advise me how to
(a) get 3 horses, plus riders, fodder & tack to a competition 35 miles away, without using our 7.5 tonner horsebox?
(b) Ditto for anyone who races bikes here, getting to a competition, say 50 miles away?
(c) Doing the shopping for a familly and trying to get the cheap stuff that's only got a day or two's shelf life left?
(d) Getting a teenage daughter to/from friends, when they live up to 15 miles away? and , no we don't get public transport around here.
(e) I'm off to Egypt on holiday in 2 weeks, do you think that myself and the familly should sample the delights of Skegness instead?

I reckon I can anticipate some of the answers -
(a) Don't - not essential
(b) Don't - not essential
(c) Get some big panniers/a trailer
(d) Can your daughter not ride a bike too?
(e) Yes - Skegness is lovely at this time of year, and has excellent public transport links.

I do think that curtailing car use is generally a good thing. I've lived in some fairly rural areas without a car and got along just fine, but crucially I didn't have any kids or any real responsibilities at all, and seem to remember trying to ponce lifts off my parents an awful lot! I don't have a car now, but then I live somewhere that's got very good public transport links to where I work, and generally don't want or need to be anywhere else at the weekends.

I don't agree with OTBAdam on everything but he's right to say that it's bloody difficult to bring up a family in the sticks and live an enjoyable life without at least access to a car. Like I said I'm all for reducing unneccesary car use but when I read blanket statement like 'I live in the countryside and I don't need a car so why should you', it makes me want to dust off the old Scammell HAT (9 tons, 8.5 litres, 24mph tops, 7mpg), and go for a spin.

Oh, and GTVLusso, I beg you to go for the 750 over the 1000; the 750 is a little gem, quicker everywhere than the 750 (save for an airfield or the Isle of Man TT), and the connoisseur's choice. 1000s are for BABs who car more for perceived size of genitalia than actually riding the things!

spen666

nasahapley wrote:

....

Oh, and GTVLusso, I beg you to go for the 750 over the 1000; the 750 is a little gem, quicker everywhere than the 750 (save for an airfield or the Isle of Man TT), and the connoisseur's choice. 1000s are for BABs who car more for perceived size of genitalia than actually riding the things!

:?: :?: :?: :?: :?:

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

MattBlackBigBoysBMX wrote:

whether I'm in my 3 litre V6 S type Jaguar or driving the 5 litre V8 M5 BMW

Oooooo, you'll have the "Car Drivers Are Evil" lynch-mob after you coming out with such heretical statements!

Whilst it was written mainly in jest, there is probably more truth in what I wrote than I thought at the time.
The life expectancy of most modern cars is only about 9 years, no car I have ever owned (not that many) has been younger than that.
I got into an argument with a work colleague over this; his opinion was that buying new cars was "greener" than owning the car I did at the time, yet he was happy to let his car go 20,000 miles between services due to the "special long life oil" used in it.
I tried to explain that the best oils only last upto about 12,500 miles, and changing it less frequently would seriously reduce the lifespan of the car but he just didn't get it.

I'm fortunate in that I can cycle to work for my day job, so the Jag doesn't get used much (although I do need it for my other job from time to time), and whilst I could have bought a more economical car I couldn't have bought one of the same age and mileage as the Jag for the same money (it really was a steal).
The other factor is that I really do enjoy driving it. This may be an alien concept to some posters here, but I don't see why I should be unduly penalised because of my financial situation (I could not afford a diesel Smart car or Polo blue motion, both in the lowest tax bracket for emissions) when I use my car far less than the vast majority of motorists, opting for the bike instead.

What is needed is a change in attitude.
This will not be brought about by tax.
High fuel duty is an excellent way to cripple an economy, I would say to wait and see, but the evidence is already here. :idea:

redddraggon

nasahapley wrote:

Like I said I'm all for reducing unneccesary car use but when I read blanket statement like 'I live in the countryside and I don't need a car so why should you'

I'm not saying anyone shouldn't have or use a car, but a car is not a necessity. If people want to live without a car they can. A lot of unnecessary journeys can be cut. I use a car, but I won't rely on it.

God knows how the human race survived for millenia without cars.

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

redddraggon wrote:

God knows how the human race survived for millenia without cars.

The human race has survived without a lot of things, the difference these things bring is a much greater quality of life. :idea:

Rich_T

Surely its peoples right to own a car, go to the beach have horses and all the other things that this thread is effectively saying they shouldnt!!!!!
I do about 100,000 miles per year which would be kind of awkward to do on the bike oh and its in a Range Rover (which I believe some also feel should be banned).
Live and let live I say, its not for anyone else to judge how people choose to spend their time or money.

redddraggon

Rich_T wrote:

Surely its peoples right to own a car, go to the beach have horses and all the other things that this thread is effectively saying they shouldnt!!!!!

I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying why should they get cheap petrol for it?

Rich_T

I personally have an issue with the amount of tax thats placed on fuel, not because I want it for nothing but because of the amount of money the government likes to give to freeloading cant work wont work individuals. if I felt that the money the treasury received was used reasonably then it would be a different matter. Since the begining of the year my weekly fuel bill has gone up by around £175 which will probaly end up paying for some 18yr old, drug taking, single parent to 4 kids, never had a job, wont get a job, another child on the way to a different father (takes deep breath) 4 bedroomed house!!!!

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

redddraggon wrote:

Rich_T wrote:

Surely its peoples right to own a car, go to the beach have horses and all the other things that this thread is effectively saying they shouldnt!!!!!

I'm not saying they shouldn't, I'm just saying why should they get cheap petrol for it?

I'd settle for reasonable, I can't imagine it would ever be cheap!

cakewalk

Rich_T wrote:

Surely its peoples right to own a car, go to the beach have horses and all the other things that this thread is effectively saying they shouldnt!!!!!
I do about 100,000 miles per year which would be kind of awkward to do on the bike oh and its in a Range Rover (which I believe some also feel should be banned).
Live and let live I say, its not for anyone else to judge how people choose to spend their time or money.

I'll judge. At least get a cat that :-

(1) Uses less fuel and therefore creates less pollution
(2) Is less likely to kill a pedestrian if you hit them


That works out at a about 40 hours a week in a car? That sounds like a pretty miserable life to me - no matter how comfortable the car is ....

Rich_T

Here we go with more judgemental attitude.
Firstly my job suits me, I work for myself, get to see the country have no hassles worth mentioning, meet lots of interesting people and wouldnt swap it for anything (plus earn a decent wage in the procces.

I need the ability to tow or carry upto 3.5tons, my only other option is a 7.5t truck which would double my fuel consumption.

So please, give me an alternative and dont just tell me, who you dont even know, what type of car I should get.

Rich

cakewalk

Rich_T wrote:

Here we go with more judgemental attitude.
Firstly my job suits me, I work for myself, get to see the country have no hassles worth mentioning, meet lots of interesting people and wouldnt swap it for anything (plus earn a decent wage in the procces.

I need the ability to tow or carry upto 3.5tons, my only other option is a 7.5t truck which would double my fuel consumption.

So please, give me an alternative and dont just tell me, who you dont even know, what type of car I should get.

Rich

The information about fuel consumption and safety is not Judgmental - it's fact.

However if you have to carry 3.5 t of stuff then - yep it's game over - you need a big heavy vehicle.

BTW - I did not tell you - I suggested. And I am prepared to suggested to people people who drive large cars unnecessarily to consider other options - even If I do not know then.

graham_g

Congestion charging is the only fair and equitable way to charge for use of the roads - unfortunately, the government will never be competent enough in terms of publicity and marketing to sell the idea and make it even remotely acceptable politically. The tabloids are the biggest barrier to acceptability IMO.
Think about it - you could scrap fuel duty and pay per mile. Businesses would benefit hugely as essential users (from vans to HGVs) could not only be charged at a lower rate if deemed necessary but the likely reduction in solo car journeys would leave them with a road network that is not clogged up like buggery. My granny would pay pennies per mile out in the sticks, as would the leisure users (families to the beach!) outside peak times, whilst the ones that cause the genuine problems such as school run mums and big city commuters would pay through the nose because they want to use the roads at peak times, mostly over short distances and where there are perfectly viable alternatives.

I don't want to get into any debate but, without going into details about how a scheme could/should be implemented, I fail to see any truly equitable alternative for which every individual journey cost reflects demand in the same way as other industries (we pay more for phone calls, electricity, train/bus tickets, and even sun-beds at times of peak demand!). Want to go 20 miles to a supermarket at 8pm? Fine, it'll cost less than a 2 mile trip across a city at 8.30am because you aren't adding to the stream of traffic causing congestion which affects buses, delivery vehicles, tradesmen, the three people sharing a lift to work, the taxis ferrying business travellers from train stations, and the poor buggers on foot and on their bike breathing in the stationary traffic fumes and listening to the incessant horn blowing of all the frustrated motorists.

iainment

Rich_T wrote:

Here we go with more judgemental attitude.
Firstly my job suits me, I work for myself, get to see the country have no hassles worth mentioning, meet lots of interesting people and wouldnt swap it for anything (plus earn a decent wage in the procces.

I need the ability to tow or carry upto 3.5tons, my only other option is a 7.5t truck which would double my fuel consumption.

So please, give me an alternative and dont just tell me, who you dont even know, what type of car I should get.

Rich

You don't approve of "judgemental attitude".

Do you read what you post?

jerry3571

Seen it coming and bought a Van that does 65mpg. A lot of people doing 80-90mph on the Motorway though. We got to get off Oil and Gas otherwise we are going to fry.
I grow exotic plants that are half hardy and more and more I can grow outside.
I think this Carbon Trading might be an idea where people can buy your quota of CO2. That means rich people giving money to the poor if they want to drive their Mercedes about. The rich must help the poor. Some of my rich customers don't even register that this is going on. What is a lot of money for the normal person is nothing to them. They've had it good so they can afford it!!

cakewalk

jerry3571 wrote:

Seen it coming and bought a Van that does 65mpg. A lot of people doing 80-90mph on the Motorway though. We got to get off Oil and Gas otherwise we are going to fry.
I grow exotic plants that are half hardy and more and more I can grow outside.
I think this Carbon Trading might be an idea where people can buy your quota of CO2. That means rich people giving money to the poor if they want to drive their Mercedes about. The rich must help the poor. Some of my rich customers don't even register that this is going on. What is a lot of money for the normal person is nothing to them. They've had it good so they can afford it!!

Exotic Plants?

Some good news :-

http://driving.timesonline.co.uk/tol/li ... 167351.ece

"The study also found that congestion had fallen by up to 12 per cent in the past month because there were fewer cars on the road."

Sounds good for everyone!

Stewie Griffin

This morning I dropped my beloved car off for its yearly service. I walked to the tube station and asked for a return ticket for Harlesden to Wembley Central on the Bakerloo line, its TWO stops. He asked me for Six Pounds of the Queens Realm :shock: . TFL's website says that this journey once aboard the train will take 5 mins its 2.4 miles according to the AA website. I walked to work, I will walk to collect my car later. The man in the ticket office pointed out that if I could wait until 9.30 it would have cost quite a bit less. Thanks for that but I need to get to work.

My car is unnecessary altogether but our Public Transport is so pee poor and expensive that Im willing to pay a premium to sit in my own climate controlled space and not listen to teenagers and their “you get me dough blud innit” shouted telephone conversations.

My last train journey abroad was Amsterdam Central to Schipol airport. 4.30 Euros on a train that you have to look out of the window to see if you are even moving, that’s how smooth and comfortable others can make it. If we had that sort of service
Then I would consider giving up the car.

My employer does its level best to discourage us from cycling in, no showers, no lockers, Sheffield stands to chain my lovely road bike to (never going to happen) and a free car park pass to a covered and secure car park.

I haven’t noticed fewer cars on the road yet, but I have noticed that my own right foot is a bit lighter than it was last year.

As for whyamihere pointing out to gtvlusso (yet another alfa driver 8) ) that he checked a website and found his ticket available at a third of the cost. All rail companies were hammered recently (probably by some toothless regulator) for not advising people of the cheapest ticket available. If you walk up to a ticket office and ask for a ticket you will not be offered the cheapest option.

To conclude my unstructured rant, there are too many cars on the road in London, if some of the less road worthy or uninsured ones driven by unlicenced drivers (as was the last one that drove into the back of my car) are priced off the roads then put it up again please.

Haulage firms delivering neccesary items like food and Alfa Romeo car parts to Specialists in NW London should receive some form of rebate or discount on their fuel. If they are delivering 50 inch plasma TV's or other luxury items then they shouldnt. Yes Im fully aware that that would be impossible to Police.

clanton

I am not at all convinced the higher fuel prices are affecting people's behaviour. My commute (by bike) is more busy than ever.

cakewalk

Stewie Griffin wrote:

This morning I dropped my beloved car off for its yearly service. I walked to the tube station and asked for a return ticket for Harlesden to Wembley Central on the Bakerloo line, its TWO stops. He asked me for Six Pounds of the Queens Realm :shock: . TFL's website says that this journey once aboard the train will take 5 mins its 2.4 miles according to the AA website. I walked to work, I will walk to collect my car later. The man in the ticket office pointed out that if I could wait until 9.30 it would have cost quite a bit less. Thanks for that but I need to get to work.

My car is unnecessary altogether but our Public Transport is so pee poor and expensive that Im willing to pay a premium to sit in my own climate controlled space and not listen to teenagers and their “you get me dough blud innit” shouted telephone conversations.

My last train journey abroad was Amsterdam Central to Schipol airport. 4.30 Euros on a train that you have to look out of the window to see if you are even moving, that’s how smooth and comfortable others can make it. If we had that sort of service
Then I would consider giving up the car.

My employer does its level best to discourage us from cycling in, no showers, no lockers, Sheffield stands to chain my lovely road bike to (never going to happen) and a free car park pass to a covered and secure car park.

I haven’t noticed fewer cars on the road yet, but I have noticed that my own right foot is a bit lighter than it was last year.

As for whyamihere pointing out to gtvlusso (yet another alfa driver 8) ) that he checked a website and found his ticket available at a third of the cost. All rail companies were hammered recently (probably by some toothless regulator) for not advising people of the cheapest ticket available. If you walk up to a ticket office and ask for a ticket you will not be offered the cheapest option.

To conclude my unstructured rant, there are too many cars on the road in London, if some of the less road worthy or uninsured ones driven by unlicenced drivers (as was the last one that drove into the back of my car) are priced off the roads then put it up again please.

Haulage firms delivering neccesary items like food and Alfa Romeo car parts to Specialists in NW London should receive some form of rebate or discount on their fuel. If they are delivering 50 inch plasma TV's or other luxury items then they shouldnt. Yes Im fully aware that that would be impossible to Police.

Cost of public transport is obscene in this country. though I understand that you can pay with oysters in London?

Stewie Griffin

Apparently we can pay for our travel with mollusks yes. I use the train once a month, Im sure they would have gone off before that.

Im looking at TFL's oyster page now and in typical LT fashion it only lists single fares. I would imagine that over 95% of journeys in London are return, what the point of that then? Anyway, that makes my journey £3. 7 miles in my car does not cost me £3, it costs less. Even taking into account servicing, depriciation, residential parking, paying £10 every few months to Albanians to wash it and anything else I have forgotten.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/assets/downloads/ ... -oyter.pdf

My mates Sister moaned on the phone to him that it cost her almost £20 to fill her Dicsovery up. She lives in Dubai. They dont pay for their lecky either I was told. I will double check that though.

jerry3571

I heard it was the Oil Companies not investing enough and OPEC milking us. What is our misfortune is Kazakstaaaaan's (spelling?? sorry Astana???) and Saudi's "boom time". They say that all the easy Oil has gone and it's the tricky stuff that's left. Small Oil Fields in difficult places. I guess if Gordon drops the Tax then we'll have to pay for it elsewhere anyhow and also maybe we should think of a poor pensioner in a care home getting the an extra Dumpling on her plate from the increases in Petrol Tax; Gordon doesn't keep the money for himself, you know, even though the Daily Mail would argue otherwise.

PS- People talk like "Crack Addicts" when they talk about fuel these days. We're all gonna go to rehab and I said No, No, No... (a bit of Amy Winehouse there)

OffTheBackAdam

jerry3571 wrote:

maybe we should think of a poor pensioner in a care home

Maybe we should think of the poor pensioner in her own home, when the gas/oil/electricity bill(s) come through the letter box.
VAT is paid on all three and fuel duty on one of those too!

jpembroke

We want cheap consumer goods. We can't make stuff cheaply here so it gets made in China and India. Consequently their economies are growing at a staggering rate. They have a population of over 2 billion between them. They are getting richer. They want consumer goods. They want cars. They want what we have. They want oil and lots of it. There is only so much oil to go round. Demand is at an all time high. Oil prices go up. We pay more. We moan about it whilst continuing to demand cheap food, cheap goods, and cheap fuel. It's insane.

We created this

We reap what we sow

MattBlackBigBoysBMX

jpembroke wrote:

We want cheap consumer goods. We can't make stuff cheaply here so it gets made in China and India. Consequently their economies are growing at a staggering rate. They have a population of over 2 billion between them. They are getting richer. They want consumer goods. They want cars. They want what we have. They want oil and lots of it. There is only so much oil to go round. Demand is at an all time high. Oil prices go up. We pay more. We moan about it whilst continuing to demand cheap food, cheap goods, and cheap fuel. It's insane.

We created this

We reap what we sow

So what other consumer goods have 70% tax enforced on them? :idea:

jpembroke

Tell you what, let's make fuel really cheap, really affordable, then we can drive round on our nice empty roads all we like. Just cruising along in the sunshine, not a care in the world. Lovely open British roads. Tum te tum te tum.

Yep, there just aren't enough people out there enjoying the roads. Plenty more room for all. I'm gonna get a Stana stairlift from my front door to the car. I'm gonna drive to the corner shop. I'm gonna drive to the school at the end of my road. I'm gonna drive to my car.

Give me convenience or give me death

:twisted:

jpembroke

Oh, and before anyone jumps on me as some kind of leftie, commie, pinko, homo, beardie tree hugger (love to meet one of those), I'm a self employed tradesman who drives a white van for a living. And yet I can still understand why fuel is as expensive as it is.

meagain

Dear Chancellor,

I understand that I have to write to you when inflation tops 2% (on our agreed joke-measure, rather than the 5-7% that the peasants are experiencing) - offering an explanation. So let me explain. There are a LOT of people in China, India and other such previously exploited countries who, as a result of the West's desire for living beyond our OWN means suddenly have the money to eat properly, have electricity and running water - and even - or so I've heard - have CARS for goodness sake.

This extra money also means that they live longer - and thus there are MORE of them every day!

Simultaneously there is LESS oil and other raw materials to go around. So the prices of these desirable things increases. This is called INFLATION (originally defined as too much money chasing too few goods, now more precisely put as too many people with some money chasing a falling number of goods).

Got it? I really hope you don't expect me to send one of these letters EVERY month for the next 5-10 years - the cost of typists and stamps is also increasing you know! Just re-date this one if the files would look better.

Off to The Mansion House to spread a bit of gloom - sorry, realism.

Regards, The Guv'nor.

pjm-84

Supply and demand.......

Reduce Duty on fuel will create more demand (more affordable!) and therefore increase fuel costs in the long term as the price of oil goes even higher. Look at India and China who subside fuel therefore increasing demand which is one of the reasons for the price hike

I'm afraid high prices seem here to stay. What I would agree with is a standard rate throughout Europe to allow haulage firms to compete on level terms.

Beeblebrox

pjm-84 wrote:

Supply and demand.......

Reduce Duty on fuel will create more demand (more affordable!) and therefore increase fuel costs in the long term as the price of oil goes even higher. Look at India and China who subside fuel therefore increasing demand which is one of the reasons for the price hike

I'm afraid high prices seem here to stay. What I would agree with is a standard rate throughout Europe to allow haulage firms to compete on level terms.

Well, while it's true there is a big increase in demand, the oil supply is still flowing so I think this is a oil price bubble and will eventually deflate - though what the repercussions is I'm not sure, as all the Oil companies will have massive reserves of cash.

However, hopefully with a few years of sustained high prices we could see a big extension of alternative power generation - even if this causes a reduction in oil price we would then have the infrastructure for a 'green' future.