Plans for Brit pro team accelerated

jimmythecuckoo

Malcolm is a legend, but whilst he is still riding and being competitive I should think coaching isn't top of his agenda.


EDIT: Ooops just noticed who is in that photo

GroupOfOne MkII

I knew what that photo was going to be before I even clicked on it

timoid.

Well if you want to win a Grand Tour, you gotta have the right fuel.

iainf72

Damn straight Timoid.

British
Tour de France Winner
Clean

Pick any 2 and they'll be achieveable in the next 10 years.

GroupOfOne MkII

iainf72 wrote:

British
Tour de France Winner
Clean

Pick any 2 and they'll be achieveable in the next 10 years.

Think I'd go for a clean Tour de France winner if it's all the same!

dave_1

Timoid. wrote:

Millar could never deal with people. How the hell is he supposed to coach them?

Malcolm Elliot stood on the podium of the Vuelta after winning the blue jersey. Maybe he could help.

Malcom Elliot would definiteltely have a role, so would Yates..but only Robert Millar knows what kind of ability to look out for in riders, the traits, the actual training and diet needed at the very highest level of grand tour overal GC riding. But then again, our Chris at 3 hours down would have won the 1996 TDF if it hadn't been for all the EPO doping so he should be involved over everyone else..

timoid.

Boardman got on the podium of the Dauphine Libere clean, broke the wold hour record clean and was 2nd in the World TT Championships clean.

The young uns would learn a lot from him. Maybe not bike handling in a bunch though.

RichN95.

Dave_1 wrote:

Timoid. wrote:

Millar could never deal with people. How the hell is he supposed to coach them?

Malcolm Elliot stood on the podium of the Vuelta after winning the blue jersey. Maybe he could help.

Malcom Elliot would definiteltely have a role, so would Yates..but only Robert Millar knows what kind of ability to look out for in riders, the traits, the actual training and diet needed at the very highest level of grand tour overal GC riding. But then again, our Chris at 3 hours down would have won the 1996 TDF if it hadn't been for all the EPO doping so he should be involved over everyone else..

Now I've never met Millar and you have so you know more than me there. But...

He's a recluse who has had anything to do with competive cycling for ten years. Yates on the other hand has worked with Armstrong, Contador, Salvodelli, Kloden and many more. In fact, wasn't Yates a major influence on Armstrong at Motorola?

Your argument is like saying Paul Gascoigne should be England manager because he was our best player.

Mark Alexander

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

and no, no GC contenders...Keen chased away the only person who could help us create one. Brailsford's textbooks and close environment training nmethods will not produce a Robert Millar

Do you seriously think we'd have a Tour GC contender if Robert Millar had remained as the UK road coach?

I was on a training camp that Millar attended and sat in on a Q&A session with him. A 18 year old who'd been tearing our legs off all week asked what he'd need to do to turn pro. Millar asked him if he'd won the junior National RR and when he replied in the negative told him "you've got no f*****g chance - forget it". Which may have been true but it's not exactly encouraging is it?

British Cycling is in better shape than it has ever been due to the focus on winning medals at World and Olympic level. That guarantees funding yet still people complain that the focus is on the wrong thing. :roll:

Ok, maybe not the best for motivational coaching then!!

thamacdaddy

See what I don't get here is people are saying stuff I am sure BC and Brailsford has heard a million times from people who think it can't be done. He says in the Guardian report its all or nothing for him that he doesn't want to just dabble in the idea but wants to commit the time, training and development to actually deliver what he says which is a Pro Tour level Brit team.

Will be interesting to see if they deliver it but I would rather say this is a great thing rather than scoff and laugh at the idea.....sad state of affairs really. Glad not everyone simply dismisses ideas otherwise a great many things would never be achieved.

iainf72

thamacdaddy wrote:

See what I don't get here is people are saying stuff I am sure BC and Brailsford has heard a million times from people who think it can't be done. He says in the Guardian report its all or nothing for him that he doesn't want to just dabble in the idea but wants to commit the time, training and development to actually deliver what he says which is a Pro Tour level Brit team.

Wouldn't it be better to try and encourage a culture of road racing first? Yes, BC have a good track program but track is a small section of cycling. Cavendish looks like the only product of that system so far who might turn out to be a star on the road.

BCF would be better spending their time getting road racing bigger in this country and that will bring out the talent.

For me the biggest issue is trying to make it some kind of national team - It plays well with the punters who know little about pro cycling but at the end of the day it's a trade team based sport. Sure, there are oddities like Euskatel but look at what feeds their teams - A culture mad for bike racing.

The article mentions Rabobank are a "nearly" national team - 11 of their 28 strong roster are not Dutch and with the exception of Dekker and Gesink, their really big names are not Dutch (Friere / Menchov)

If that's the model Brailsford is going for - Great. Good idea. Get a big budget, hire so good talent from the pool in Europe and add in some British flavour. If he got a €15m per year budget they could win quickly.

ms_tree

iainf72 wrote:

This says it all (Charly is Finnish though)

85. Charly Wegelius (GB) Liquigas at 1-39-52
93. David Millar (GB) Slipstream at 1-48-35
118. Geraint Thomas (GB) Barloworld at 2-14-14
123. Steve Cummings (GB) Barloworld at 2-17-28
137. Mark Cavendish (GB) High Road at 2-43-37
139. Bradley Wiggins (GB) High Road at 2-46-28

Are there any up and coming guys who can climb?

Isn't Millar actually Maltese?????

sing_for_absolution

Timoid. wrote:

Millar could never deal with people. How the hell is he supposed to coach them?

.

"Here's a bike. Now f*****g ride it"

thamacdaddy

I don't disagree at all but I guess there is a little chicken and egg case here too. A lot of sports that create more public interest get a better take up but then if you don't get the interest up for new riders where do they come from is what people here are saying.

Would be great though even if it was a mixed team with a Brit backing and some good british riders. I would certainly get behind it.

I say fair play to them if they have high targets its good to see, hope they do a lot for the sport here and maybe a few shining stars i.e. the track stars at the olympics (vicky p ) Cav in the tours etc can bring more exposure and do as you say for cycling and hopefully road cycling too.

And more fun events like this might help too:
http://www.salfordfestivalofcycling.com/index.html

Mark Alexander

If Kazakhstan can try to do it with Astana.
why can't we succeed?
No one ever got anywhere by saying "oh it looks difficult".

iainf72

Mark Alexander wrote:

If Kazakhstan can try to do it with Astana.
why can't we succeed?
No one ever got anywhere by saying "oh it looks difficult".

Is that the Astana who's 3 biggest stars are Spanish, German and American?

forearms Van Petegem

Cav
Millar
Mcewen (got a Brit passport, good leadout man for Cav)
Wiggins
Hammond
Cioni
Wegelius
Hunt
Cummings
Thomas
Stannard
Clancy
Jamie Burrow
Bellis
Swift
Dan Lloyd
Tennant
Burke
Hampton
Newton
Downing
Downing
Hayles
Manning

adding the Paddies, Deignan, Roche, Martin, Scanlon (enduce him out of retirement), O'Loughlin, Power, McCann,


ride a full Protour calendar, plus put a the team in the 4 track world cups, and a full 6 days program.

Who said a PT trade team had to ride the same calendar as a <insert generic PT team>

Remember USPS of 2002 still rode a domestic program and parking lot crits.


Do you have enough climbers? Cioni, Wegelius, Millar (stretching it), Burrow, Hampton?

nope, but then again, Cofidis and FDJ and AG2R and CA are low on GC prospects.


That team would not compete for many classification wins, but it would be just as good as Milram/Fassa of Petacchi.

A leadout train with Wiggins, Millar, Stannard, Thomas, Power and Clancy would be strong. Power and Clancy good last men to sprint for Cav.

Or insert Hunt/Hammond, but they are best left to headline a classics team with Cummings, Thomas, Stannard, Hammond and Hunt. Very strong.

Hilly classics weaker, Millar, Swift, Bellis, Cummings would struggle.

Cav would win 20 times a year with a dedicated team behind him.

Ms Tree wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

This says it all (Charly is Finnish though)

85. Charly Wegelius (GB) Liquigas at 1-39-52
93. David Millar (GB) Slipstream at 1-48-35
118. Geraint Thomas (GB) Barloworld at 2-14-14
123. Steve Cummings (GB) Barloworld at 2-17-28
137. Mark Cavendish (GB) High Road at 2-43-37
139. Bradley Wiggins (GB) High Road at 2-46-28

Are there any up and coming guys who can climb?

Isn't Millar actually Maltese?????

LangerDan

At least half your proposed squad would be toast in a ProTour race. Certainly anyone whose career is now centered around Premier Calendar events won't make the grade.

Scanlon won't be making a comeback - except perhaps on the Irish domestic scene. He hasn't been on the bike since the middle of 2007 and is currently training as a prison officer.

Given Braislford's target of a clean, British TdF GC win, the selection above won't make the cut
Clean - there are a number of riders there who have been banned for a variety of doping offences. The odds have to be that at least one of them will fall again.
British - you had to draft in half a dozen Irish riders
G/C win - by your own admission there is no-one there who can present a serious enough threat.

We used to have the same discussions in Ireland back in the 1980's - what about an Irish squad with Kelly, Roche, Kimmage, Earley, McCormack etc.? First question - who'd be the leader? Then there would be a fight between the culchies and the skangers about whether Roche or Kelly was the better rider.

forearms Van Petegem

Cioni and Mcewen have British passports I believe, can we count them?

So you are saying this team is not up to it?

Millar
Wiggins
Cavendish
Hammond
Hunt
Wegelius
Thomas
Cummings
Stannard


mate, that is stronger than about 75% of the teams in the Tour. It does not have a GC rider, but it would win multiple stages. If there was a team timetrial, on a good day, that team has a good a shot as any other to win.

Cav is a great starter, Wiggins and Millar are great thru all 55+km, Cummings, Stannard and Thomas are very good in the ttt, Wegelius has last years Giro TTT on his palmares, and Hunt and Hammond coul pull for the first half before shedding themselves.

Downing brothers have won stages in 2.1 Tours on the continent.

Burrow has climbing record beating a Pantani record climb on some climb in the Pyrnees when he was doped up at the Italian amateur team circa 1999. Still only about 29, just needs a team.

Newton, Hayles, Manning etc can either do domestique duties in 2.1 events, and then ride a world cup and 6 day calendar.

There is enough talent there. There are 60 days racing on average for every Protour rider, and they only average 0.5 wins. If Cav wins 20 times, he almost covers the team.

Have a look at the bottom 10 riders on all the Protour teams. Have a look at their palmares.

Newton et al who ride a premier calendar would not be expected to win stages in the Tour. They would be expected to represent in 6 days, and win points races in the World Cups.

Just like Rabobank and some other teams run a cyclocross team. No reason why a 30 man Protour squad cannot ride a full track program also.

We are talking about an economic payoff, getting wins on the track, to activate the racing brand. It matters little if the wins come in the World Cup track circuit, or 4 Days of Dunkirk if you can get the equivalent economic publicity value.

So, Hayles, yes he doped, but he can ride as a domestique in 1.1 and 2.1 lowlands races, as a supplement to a full track program.

I think everyone assumes you need to be Hammond or Millar or Cav or Wiggins to be a Protour rider. Those guys are best of the best. Cummings would make the Tour squad on AG2R. Thomas and Stannard might be better road riders than any other Brit you have. Cav and Miller and Wiggins and Hammond are pretty one-dimensional. If Thomas and Stannard can win monuments, it will put them on a higher plane.

Bellis might be better than all of them. Swift might be a good roadie too. There is loads of talent.

Dan Lloyd came runner up in Quinghai Lake. If he was French, he would be thereabouts and definitely be on a Protour team. No world beater, but have a look at the French squads.

CSC and High Road are the exception with their depth. The rest of the teams have pretty shallow squads, where you have 10 potential winners, a few young riders with potential, then journeymen domestiques.

LangerDan wrote:

At least half your proposed squad would be toast in a ProTour race. Certainly anyone whose career is now centered around Premier Calendar events won't make the grade.

Scanlon won't be making a comeback - except perhaps on the Irish domestic scene. He hasn't been on the bike since the middle of 2007 and is currently training as a prison officer.

Given Braislford's target of a clean, British TdF GC win, the selection above won't make the cut
Clean - there are a number of riders there who have been banned for a variety of doping offences. The odds have to be that at least one of them will fall again.
British - you had to draft in half a dozen Irish riders
G/C win - by your own admission there is no-one there who can present a serious enough threat.

We used to have the same discussions in Ireland back in the 1980's - what about an Irish squad with Kelly, Roche, Kimmage, Earley, McCormack etc.? First question - who'd be the leader? Then there would be a fight between the culchies and the skangers about whether Roche or Kelly was the better rider.

calvjones

This will never happen, The only reason the track team gets good funding is because elite sport funding in the UK is based on potential for Olympic medals - and there isn't the scope for this in road racing with only 2 up for grabs, unlike track, swimming etc..where single athletes can win/contribute to multiple golds.

Nice to dream tho!

skavanagh.bikeradar

I'm sure Brailsford would've been laughed out of a funding meeting 10 years ago if he'd have promised all those track medals his team just won. The point being that if you do something with total committment with strong leadership you can change things around and succeed. Who knows if he can do it in the time frame? I'd rather he had a crack at it though rather than sitting on my hands moaning about how futile it is. I'm guess too, that he's got riders in mind who are currently all under the age of 18!!!

calvjones

skavanagh.bikeradar wrote:

I'm sure Brailsford would've been laughed out of a funding meeting 10 years ago if he'd have promised all those track medals his team just won. The point being that if you do something with total committment with strong leadership you can change things around and succeed. Who knows if he can do it in the time frame? I'd rather he had a crack at it though rather than sitting on my hands moaning about how futile it is. I'm guess too, that he's got riders in mind who are currently all under the age of 18!!!

My point is that Brailsford's undoubted committment and leadership will be better spent finding the next gen of track cyclists, not road cyclists. UK Sport couldn't give a monkeys about winning the Tour as they look for a level playing field with which to allocate funding - i.e. Olympic medals. So what's the point of them giving Dave shed-loads of support to attain a maximum of 2 Olympic golds in 10years in a sport hopelessly tarnished by doping*?

*yes, I know trackies dope & get caught too, but so far noone in the media seems to have noticed...funny that.

iainf72

LangerDan wrote:

Scanlon won't be making a comeback - except perhaps on the Irish domestic scene. He hasn't been on the bike since the middle of 2007 and is currently training as a prison officer.

As long as he's training!

flattythehurdler

LangerDan wrote:

At least half your proposed squad would be toast in a ProTour race. Certainly anyone whose career is now centered around Premier Calendar events won't make the grade.

Scanlon won't be making a comeback - except perhaps on the Irish domestic scene. He hasn't been on the bike since the middle of 2007 and is currently training as a prison officer.

Given Braislford's target of a clean, British TdF GC win, the selection above won't make the cut
Clean - there are a number of riders there who have been banned for a variety of doping offences. The odds have to be that at least one of them will fall again.
British - you had to draft in half a dozen Irish riders
G/C win - by your own admission there is no-one there who can present a serious enough threat.

We used to have the same discussions in Ireland back in the 1980's - what about an Irish squad with Kelly, Roche, Kimmage, Earley, McCormack etc.? First question - who'd be the leader? Then there would be a fight between the culchies and the skangers about whether Roche or Kelly was the better rider.

Who'd win a fight between a culchie and a skanger?

andyp

calvjones wrote:

My point is that Brailsford's undoubted committment and leadership will be better spent finding the next gen of track cyclists, not road cyclists. UK Sport couldn't give a monkeys about winning the Tour as they look for a level playing field with which to allocate funding - i.e. Olympic medals. So what's the point of them giving Dave shed-loads of support to attain a maximum of 2 Olympic golds in 10years in a sport hopelessly tarnished by doping*?

I don't think UK sport are expected to fund any of this - the idea as I understand it is to have a commercial sponsor providing the funds, not any UK goverment agency or quango. The original article in the Guardian clearly states this.

In that respect I can't see why this won't work given that this is similar to how Euskatel, Rabobank and Astana operate.

LangerDan

flattythehurdler wrote:

Who'd win a fight between a culchie and a skanger?

The culchie - we were learning bare-knuckle boxing from the tinkers while the skangers were standing whinging in the dole office. Plus we can use hurleys while Dublin hurling is like a form of compulsory tillage, to mis-quote Con Houlihan.

iainf72

andyp wrote:

In that respect I can't see why this won't work given that this is similar to how Euskatel, Rabobank and Astana operate.

You mean (with the exception of EE) have a lot of foreign talent?

andyp

iainf72 wrote:

You mean (with the exception of EE) have a lot of foreign talent?

Yes. I think it would be a shame if any British pro team restricted itself solely to British riders as from both a sporting and a cultural aspect the British riders would learn more.

redddraggon

iainf72 wrote:

andyp wrote:

In that respect I can't see why this won't work given that this is similar to how Euskatel, Rabobank and Astana operate.

You mean (with the exception of EE) have a lot of foreign talent?

Don't EE cheat and say some the South Americans are "Basque origin" though?

iainf72

andyp wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

You mean (with the exception of EE) have a lot of foreign talent?

Yes. I think it would be a shame if any British pro team restricted itself solely to British riders as from both a sporting and a cultural aspect the British riders would learn more.

I agree but the article didn't give that impression.

Where the teams are from is a funny old game - When the Tour de France was kicking off last year it was really amusing the read the South African press because of Barloworld. They were all enthusistic about "their team" etc until they realised there was only Robbie Hunter from SA on the squad.