Plans for Brit pro team accelerated

iainf72

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/ma ... ce.cycling

to win the Tour de France with a clean British rider within five to 10 years

It just can't work. There's not enough talent + it's 2008, national teams are dead.

Perhaps they could be sponsored by cod liver oil and cherry juice suppliers!

redddraggon

Are there no GC contenders we could pretend are British?

iainf72

This says it all (Charly is Finnish though)

85. Charly Wegelius (GB) Liquigas at 1-39-52
93. David Millar (GB) Slipstream at 1-48-35
118. Geraint Thomas (GB) Barloworld at 2-14-14
123. Steve Cummings (GB) Barloworld at 2-17-28
137. Mark Cavendish (GB) High Road at 2-43-37
139. Bradley Wiggins (GB) High Road at 2-46-28

Are there any up and coming guys who can climb?

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/may/28/tourdefrance.cycling

to win the Tour de France with a clean British rider within five to 10 years

It just can't work. There's not enough talent + it's 2008, national teams are dead.

Perhaps they could be sponsored by cod liver oil and cherry juice suppliers!

depends, ASO is partial to national teams idea, at least they said last year. Brands have zero loyalty from riders...nations do more so

graeme_s-2

Starting in 2010, aim to win the Tour de France in 10 years. The rider he's talking about could be a toddler now, so I'd say there's time there to bring young talent through. You could argue that we don't have that talent, but then we didn't have it on the track before the track team got properly organised and funded.

It's a massive goal, but it's good to aim high, it's the sort of thing that gets publicity and gets sponsors on board. Good luck to them I say

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

This says it all (Charly is Finnish though)

85. Charly Wegelius (GB) Liquigas at 1-39-52
93. David Millar (GB) Slipstream at 1-48-35
118. Geraint Thomas (GB) Barloworld at 2-14-14
123. Steve Cummings (GB) Barloworld at 2-17-28
137. Mark Cavendish (GB) High Road at 2-43-37
139. Bradley Wiggins (GB) High Road at 2-46-28

Are there any up and coming guys who can climb?

Wegelius is entirely a product of British cycling from what I read and Dave Rayner supported late 1990s I recall

and no, no GC contenders...Keen chased away the only person who could help us create one. Brailsford's textbooks and close environment training nmethods will not produce a Robert Millar

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

depends, ASO is partial to national teams idea, at least they said last year. Brands have zero loyalty from riders...nations do more so

I believe that was misquoted - I certainly remember reading that Clerc said he didn't think national teams were the way forward.

LangerDan

Leaving aside the time issue and the fact that most of the present riders will be retired by 2017, it has become obvious over the past decade( and more) that you can have a successful sprint squad or a succesful GC squad for the TdF- you can't do both anymore. If BC want to target the overall, they can only make a token gesture to the likes of Cav in terms of lead-out men.

Brands have zero loyalty from riders...nations do more so

Arguable - look at the T-Mobile "team time trial" in the 2000 Olympics road race or Southam / Wegelius at the 2005 Worlds. Pro cyclists have had stronger bonds to their employers than the nations for the past 40 or 50 years at least.
Look at the ongoing rows in soccer for years over national squad duty for the top club players - no different.

iainf72

LangerDan wrote:

Brands have zero loyalty from riders...nations do more so

Arguable - look at the T-Mobile "team time trial" in the 2000 Olympics road race or Southam / Wegelius at the 2005 Worlds. Pro cyclists have had stronger bonds to their employers than the nations for the past 40 or 50 years at least.

Agreed. And if the UK did produce a challenger, his services would be worth a lot to the purely commerical outfits. And to win a GT requires a strong team so trying to source everything from one country with a small cycling group seems a bit hopeful.

This is similar to the discussion a few days ago about whether you back teams or individuals.

skavanagh.bikeradar

Being an optimist, I'd say that a GC contender by 2020 isn't beyond the wit of BC - if a Tour GC contender is 24 in 2020 they are now 12..... Brailsford (and Keen before him) have got success by being 100% focussed on what they are trying to do in a very specific way with the long term in mind. I'm sure BC won't use the same methods as they have with the track team - they are successful enough and professional enough to understand that they need a whole new blueprint for a whole new objective. It's an impossibly difficult task. Perhaps it'll encourage BC to look after racing on our roads a bit better too......

LangerDan

redddraggon wrote:

Are there no GC contenders we could pretend are British?

You could always revert to the 1980's device of "English Speakers". Much as this allowed Phil Liggett to lay joint claim on the achievements of Kelly, Roche, Anderson and LeMond, you could now try the same for Cadel Evans and, ahem, Tom Danielson.

dave_1

iainf72 wrote:

LangerDan wrote:

Brands have zero loyalty from riders...nations do more so

Arguable - look at the T-Mobile "team time trial" in the 2000 Olympics road race or Southam / Wegelius at the 2005 Worlds. Pro cyclists have had stronger bonds to their employers than the nations for the past 40 or 50 years at least.

Agreed. And if the UK did produce a challenger, his services would be worth a lot to the purely commerical outfits. And to win a GT requires a strong team so trying to source everything from one country with a small cycling group seems a bit hopeful.

This is similar to the discussion a few days ago about whether you back teams or individuals.

GB did not pay Southam and Wegelius so they went for money from Italy...if Britain pays as Brailford plans then it would work...and there'd be the shame factor of attempted doping...it might deter if it your country you drag through the mud

LangerDan

Dave_1 wrote:

and there'd be the shame factor of attempted doping...it might deter if it your country you drag through the mud

I'd have to disagree. The Olympics are probably the zenith of doping. TBH, the current "national" response to dopers would appear to be not about the shame they might bring to the country but the negative impact it would have on the medals table.

iainf72

Dave_1 wrote:

and there'd be the shame factor of attempted doping...it might deter if it your country you drag through the mud

David Millar used EPO to win the worlds when competing for team GB. I don't believe it would make a blind bit of difference.

andyp

Dave_1 wrote:

and no, no GC contenders...Keen chased away the only person who could help us create one. Brailsford's textbooks and close environment training nmethods will not produce a Robert Millar

Do you seriously think we'd have a Tour GC contender if Robert Millar had remained as the UK road coach?

I was on a training camp that Millar attended and sat in on a Q&A session with him. A 18 year old who'd been tearing our legs off all week asked what he'd need to do to turn pro. Millar asked him if he'd won the junior National RR and when he replied in the negative told him "you've got no f*****g chance - forget it". Which may have been true but it's not exactly encouraging is it?

British Cycling is in better shape than it has ever been due to the focus on winning medals at World and Olympic level. That guarantees funding yet still people complain that the focus is on the wrong thing. :roll:

ricadus

Needs a big investment at grassroots level, to draw in more talent (and away from other more glamourous sports) as well as spotting and developing that talent, while also retaining the interest of those who are good but not good enough so they too support and contribute in other ways. Otherwise you might as well cherry-pick a clutch of English-speaking foreigners.

dave_1

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

and no, no GC contenders...Keen chased away the only person who could help us create one. Brailsford's textbooks and close environment training nmethods will not produce a Robert Millar

Do you seriously think we'd have a Tour GC contender if Robert Millar had remained as the UK road coach?

I was on a training camp that Millar attended and sat in on a Q&A session with him. A 18 year old who'd been tearing our legs off all week asked what he'd need to do to turn pro. Millar asked him if he'd won the junior National RR and when he replied in the negative told him "you've got no f*****g chance - forget it". Which may have been true but it's not exactly encouraging is it?

British Cycling is in better shape than it has ever been due to the focus on winning medals at World and Olympic level. That guarantees funding yet still people complain that the focus is on the wrong thing. :roll:

I think some honesty is good if it forces someone to move on in life...Robert was quite cutting to me and the others 20 years ago and basically said...no silly questions about what gears I ride Alpe Du Huez in pls and then went onto to say you must win domestically in your region's best races, then win premiers, then France, not France first......and he was spot on-brutal advice. Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it ..

avalon

"Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it"

Hoban,Yates,Elliot,Boardman,Sciandri,D.Millar,Cavendish ?

GroupOfOne MkII

avalon wrote:

"Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it"

Hoban,Yates,Elliot,Boardman,Sciandri,D.Millar,Cavendish ?

I think Dave means the final podium there, in Paris/Milan/Madrid or wherever, rather than just the podium in a grand tour.

avalon

When did Millar make the final podium?

edit.
Sorry 2nd Tour of Spain and the Giro

GroupOfOne MkII

King of the Mountains at the '84 Tour and '87 Giro too, would both count as a GT podium too, I think.

vermooten

iainf72 wrote:

it's 2008, national teams are dead.

Aren't Euskaltel a national team of sorts? And with two riders in last year's Tour's top 10.

Also, isn't the road racing sitch in Britain similar to the track was a few years ago? It took money and focus from the powers that be to make GB the world's top track nation so in theory they could do the same on t'road?

graeme_s-2

ricadus wrote:

Needs a big investment at grassroots level, to draw in more talent (and away from other more glamourous sports) as well as spotting and developing that talent, while also retaining the interest of those who are good but not good enough so they too support and contribute in other ways. Otherwise you might as well cherry-pick a clutch of English-speaking foreigners.

That's exactly what they've done on the track though isn't it?

No reason for them not to attempt the same on the road.

sing_for_absolution

If such a team came into existence, then they'll surely have to sign up non-British riders. If that's the case, will they be vetting every single rider to make sure there isn't an ounce of suspicion or if they've been with dodgy teams? After all, we know how obsessed the British media are with doping in cycling. Imagine the furore if a rider signed up by this British team would then later be implicated in some past doping scandal?

dave_1

avalon wrote:

"Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it"

Hoban,Yates,Elliot,Boardman,Sciandri,D.Millar,Cavendish ?

lol...winning the thing , not small parts of it

avalon

Dave_1 wrote:

avalon wrote:

"Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it"

Hoban,Yates,Elliot,Boardman,Sciandri,D.Millar,Cavendish ?

lol...winning the thing overall

Which GT did he win overall ?

dave_1

avalon wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

avalon wrote:

"Only he knows what it takes to podium in grand tours-nobody else in the UK has done it"

Hoban,Yates,Elliot,Boardman,Sciandri,D.Millar,Cavendish ?

lol...winning the thing overall

Which GT did he win overall ?

you're back I see

avalon

Sorry?

timoid.

Millar could never deal with people. How the hell is he supposed to coach them?

Malcolm Elliot stood on the podium of the Vuelta after winning the blue jersey. Maybe he could help.

leguape

andyp wrote:

Dave_1 wrote:

and no, no GC contenders...Keen chased away the only person who could help us create one. Brailsford's textbooks and close environment training nmethods will not produce a Robert Millar

Do you seriously think we'd have a Tour GC contender if Robert Millar had remained as the UK road coach?

I was on a training camp that Millar attended and sat in on a Q&A session with him. A 18 year old who'd been tearing our legs off all week asked what he'd need to do to turn pro. Millar asked him if he'd won the junior National RR and when he replied in the negative told him "you've got no f*****g chance - forget it". Which may have been true but it's not exactly encouraging is it?

British Cycling is in better shape than it has ever been due to the focus on winning medals at World and Olympic level. That guarantees funding yet still people complain that the focus is on the wrong thing. :roll:

BC has been doing not a great deal different to what Millar was suggesting - it targets riders who will win stuff for development. They take some fairly brutal decisions on who to send to what events and who is up to the task. See riders not being selected for MTB worlds last year for an example.

Timoid. wrote:

Millar could never deal with people. How the hell is he supposed to coach them?

Malcolm Elliot stood on the podium of the Vuelta after winning the blue jersey. Maybe he could help.

Malcolm's already doing his bit by still winning races at 46 or so on the british domestic scene. I guess that let's the youngsters dreaming of winning big races know how good they are going to have to be.

iainf72

Timoid. wrote:

Malcolm Elliot stood on the podium of the Vuelta after winning the blue jersey. Maybe he could help.

Malcolm could sure point them at a coach who knows how to deal with road cycling....