Money Snobbery
Comments
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I think bikes have got a chunk cheaper, in real terms. I bought a 1992 spec stumpjumper in 1993 for £450 reduced from £699 as last years model (also in a recession - the shop was in trouble). THe bike was rigid, tange prestige steel frame, cantis, deore 7 speed groupset with thumbshifters.
Now if we just assume 2% pa inflation from 1992 then a similar bike should cost £960 by my reckoning. In truth, a hardrock for £300 is probably a more capable bike in many ways.
I'm sure roadbikes haven't shown the same rate of improvement but still, I don't find it hard to believe that the price point for decent entry level bike has come down a lot.0 -
BTW, getting back to the OP, I admit that I tend to be much snobbier about "all the gear and no idea" types than enthusiasts on tight budgets. I will probably end up buying a nice "good" road bike but I'll be a bit embarrassed by it to be honest...0
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As with all things in life "you get what you pay for" in cycling Less is more as someone once posted.
We all make choices of how we spend our money. Me I have far to many bikes.After discussing things with NB down in special interests,I am now sorting things out with the Coventry Transport Museum to have at least two of my machines on a 5 year loan.I reckon this will take a couple of months to sort out.
Me I just love riding & tinkering with em.bagpuss0 -
I suspect we won't agree .... one man's advice is anothers opinion ... and one man's contructive criticism is anothers high handed arrogance.
Seems there's only one arrogant person here and thats the one who persists in stating 'his opinion' is OK and others aren't!
You stick with your anglo-saxon terminology and I'll use my brain to find some more constructive language.
It's great to be .....0 -
The point made by NB is right: there's way too much elitist snobbery in the world of the enthusiast (enthusiastic about what doesn't matter). More experience and disposable income apparently entitle one to be taken more seriously: no surprise really as we live in a world where how much you have decides what value you are to the world. Humanity has been hi-jacked by capitalism for the last 3 decades, and this continues under the current governments of the world. I'm with Norwegian Blue on this - I got exactly that snobbish attitude from experienced club members when I joined a cycling club. As I was (am) an appallingly inadequate racing cycling I have no stories of beating the local hot-shot on a crappy old bike, but I realized that turning up with a crappy bike was to receive opprobrium from all and sundry. That hurts when you are 11 and your "shi&&y bike" was a Christmas present 3 months ago.
No wonder cycling is attracting fewer and fewer young people.0 -
pliptrot wrote:The point made by NB is right: there's way too much elitist snobbery in the world of the enthusiast (enthusiastic about what doesn't matter). More experience and disposable income apparently entitle one to be taken more seriously: no surprise really as we live in a world where how much you have decides what value you are to the world. Humanity has been hi-jacked by capitalism for the last 3 decades, and this continues under the current governments of the world. I'm with Norwegian Blue on this - I got exactly that snobbish attitude from experienced club members when I joined a cycling club. As I was (am) an appallingly inadequate racing cycling I have no stories of beating the local hot-shot on a crappy old bike, but I realized that turning up with a crappy bike was to receive opprobrium from all and sundry. That hurts when you are 11 and your "shi&&y bike" was a Christmas present 3 months ago.
No wonder cycling is attracting fewer and fewer young people.
Interesting comment.
Income .....hmmm It all depends on your point a view ....I busted a gut working 50 hrs a week for 20 years by choice in order to improve my quality of life ,and in no uncertain terms i paid for it along the way.Does that make me a money snob ...To coin Norman T words I got on my bike and worked....hard...nowt on a plate here. If that offends ...well.
Cycling clubs have never been for the faint hearted..and they have always been, as are all clubs, clicky ..I for one could never ride fast over short distance, but boy over a long one i could alway hold my own.When i was 11{39 years ago!} riding a bike was about having fun with my mates,and still is.{Last night 15 miles then in the pub.One bloke was riding a bike that came out a skip.Hard men farmers and builders,motor enginineers,and me gainfull employed :?: in local goverment.The crack was as good as ever.
The CTC has always welcomed ALL cyclists of what ever level,but i fear some could not go with the image. ...Are they therefore Image snobs.
Go to the York rally and have some fun .I am riding up .90 miles and it is going to be FUN.bagpuss0 -
MAJOR QUALIFICATION; The CTC have -absolutely- been great to ride with. Always.
But just consider how a mention of those 3 letters provokes howls of outrage from the cognescenti in other sections of the forum - QED.0 -
My original post wasn't specifically about road clubs, although it was prompted by the actions of members of one road club.
The thing about opinion is that when it is presented as such it is valid, at least as a topic for further discussion. Now obvisously my the point of my original post was to provoke discussion, and it's succeeded in that.
Nobody has, in my opinion, managed to justify the behaviour of those club members, who belittled an 18 year old for only having £300 to spend on a bike.
Nor has anybody explained why, if it's pointless to spend £300 on a bike (or even less than £2K on a full suss MTB, or less than £1200 on a hardtail, etc.) there are so many bikes that fall below those threshholds whizzing about entertaining their riders.
I think that part of the explanation for the snobbish attitude can be found in a fear that having spent a fortune on their bike, they may not be happy. Or rather they may not be any more happy than somebody who spent a lot less, and they seem to be trying to discoourage people from finding happiness on a cheaper bike. Or maybe I'm just over rationalizing human nature.
However one question I would ask is: How did they get into cycling themselves? Did they go straight in at the exotic superbike level? Or did they start at the bottom, get hooked and spend more and more in search of cycling nirvana? I suspect that, in most cases, it was the latter. Now they may want to rationalize that they are trying to discourage people from making the same mistakes as they did and buy straight in at the level of nirvana. But maybe they've forgotton the feeling they had when they first rode that cheap entry level bike. The feeling when they upgraded. Even the feeling when they rode their first stabilizer equipped bike at the age of three. It was cycling nirvana every time wasn't it? It's a voyage of discovery and every step is a joy. If step one takes you straight to the summit of Everest, where do you go from there? The voyage is almost over before it has begun.
This week I've watched my son take his first tentative steps on the voyage. I wanted him to have a bike for his third birthday, he wanted Thomas the Tank Engine to the exclusion of all else, and that's what he got. My wife, resourceful as ever, managed to source a perfectly servicable bike from Freecycle. Now should I tell him there's no point in riding such a basic bike (an Apollo) that cost nothing? Should I tell him we need to spend £100 or more? I've been watching his face and let me tell you he's having more fun than anybody on a seven grand superbike and he can't even pedal it properly yet. I'm determined never to let that joy in him die as it did in me for many years.
And if anybody tries to kill that joy with their derision then they will have me to answer to."Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
Yes .
Some road Club riders have there heads stuck up their butts.Alot of them are cafe racers.
Does it matter how much "your bike cost" if you are riding with real friends.In a word NO.
My dad bought me my fist bike a red Straight bar BSA .
A few years later a better bike, a Sun plus, came along.More road found.
Following the local hunt across fields before i had even heard of cyclo x. Boy did i hammer that bike.
My first lightweight was earnt by picking fruit in the long summer.holidays.
Living well out of town and no bus service it was the only way i could get to my first job.
A bike has always given me "pure Freedom" to ride and discover.
Buy second hand and teach him the fun of making it work.Who says brand new is better.
The concept behind the Raleigh Bomber was what the kids in Nottingham knocked together themselves.{Read the Raleigh Story on the net. Y Ricks their marketing Director.A street bike made from left over in the factory. No retooling needed .Simple great fun.
Always the key word "FUN"
Rediscover your lost joy .Forget racing .Keep it simple.Discover the roads together.I wish my dad would of rode a bike with me.
My next few years will be spent doing more riding and less time working.Finding more "New roads" with a passion.bagpuss0 -
When I was at school we had a cycling club, there were generally less than ten of us on rides on a wide variety of bikes and a wide variety of fitness levels. We all enjoyed it, the .fast guys would take off and wait for the slower riders a few miles down the road. It all worked out quite nicely.
Then one day the teacher who ran the club told us that it was worth our joining the nearest road club. A handful of us turned up at a meet and were dismissed as "just kids" by the greater proportion of the members there. There was no money snobbery because we were in the local pub so they hadn't seen our bikes yet. A few welcomed us, but there was an overwhelming attitude of "you'll only slow us down". One of the more welcoming members suggested we come along on a club ride to see how we fit in. We declined because it was pretty obvious that we wouldn't fit in with the majority of the membership.
At the time I thought they were actually worried that we would be faster than them. Later however I thought that they just didn't want us invading their little clique. Now maybe, just maybe, the apparent money snobbery is another way of trying to keep people out of their clique.
I wonder what they're reasoning would be if a potential new member turned up with some exotic superbike."Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
Easy one to answer. They would take him out and give him a right hammering.I was given the once over more that once.Still, it made me train harder , I still couldn't get my own back even then on the real fast men.It is basic animal instinct.
I have seen new men turn up on fast club runs and taken up every hill in Derdyshire....Never to be seen again.I was often out the back .Then I got older and wiser :?: and picked a slower group.Guess what :?: .I was told i was to fast :?
I now find the lard will not go up hill :oops: Oh well it is going to hurt today :shock:bagpuss0 -
MONEY .....Since 1973....So far ahead of its time.Still top of my play list.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4hkjkTe5kZEbagpuss0 -
can't help thinking there's two elements to this discussion which seem to get joined.
The first is a fairly frequent 'poor attitude' or general unfriendliness on the part of experienced cyclists (especially in club environments) towards newbies ... for whatever reason ...
and the second about people with expensive equipment lording it over others with cheaper gear.
I cycle solo (for the most part) and I'm able to afford something that some others might not. I'm not apologising for it as I work my ass off and no-one gave me a penny along the way ... however the point I'm making is that I don't look down on anyone ... no matter what they ride, and I think there are many cyclists just like me.
I think we need to break the automatic connection that seems to be being made between snobs and people riding expensive bikes.
It's great to be .....0 -
Don't worry, I don't make that connection myself and I started the thread. However you'll seldom find an equipment snob riding a cheap bike or an old hack. So my reasoning is this: all money snobs have expensive equipment, not all people with expensive equipment are snobs.
I wouldn't assume that somebody was a money snob based on the bike they ride. I'd wait for them to open their mouth before I made a decision.
Don't get the idea, either, that I am restricting my comments to roadies. If anything I find MTB riders can be worse, but then they have more scope because not only can you have a bike that is too cheap there is much more scope for MTB equipment snobs to tell you that you have the "wrong" bike. So even if your bike cost more than theirs they can still ridicule you. "Nobody rides race bike these days." or "You can't ride shore on a downhill bike." or whatever.
Interestingly, however, in a discussion on a similar point on an MTB forum I frequent the general consensus was "what a set of copper nano tubes"."Swearing, it turns out, is big and clever" - Jarvis Cocker0 -
The point everyone seems to be missing is that road bikes are basically instruments of pain. Having a nice one helps add to the distraction is all.Dan0
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pjh wrote:I'm not apologising for it as I work my ass off and no-one gave me a penny along the way ... however the point I'm making is that I don't look down on anyone ... no matter what they ride, and I think there are many cyclists just like me.
I think we need to break the automatic connection that seems to be being made between snobs and people riding expensive bikes.
Sorry to pick on pjh here, there have been many others using the same language on this thread and it could have been any one of many others.
I don't get why "working my ass off" is a necessary frame of reference in having money? If we're purporting an effort based meritocracy here then a lot of the arguments fall down...it implies that you've earned the right to look down on someone if you got your money by hard graft; but if you've inherited/won/found money you're a tosser.
Now I'm all for hard work, I do a bit myself from time to time and it's good for the soul. But I'm fully aware that my wife - a teacher - is both harder working than I am and her role in society is FAR more valuable than mine, unfairly I earn more (not a fortune but I do OK). For my part I was lucky that my family have some money and got me started in a good education and since then I've been fortunate that what I do has a decent market value, Lord knows why. And in case you wonder I really do know the value of money and worry every day about providing for my family.
My point, eventually, is that like it or not we all have a dark, nasty little snob lurking away inside. It can be inverted - good bikes are a waste, much better to build your own - or it can be the ugly - you can't join our club with a crap bike.
Or it can be it's not real money unless you've had to graft to get it.
Which ever way it's a form of elitism that exlcudes others from the company we choose to keep, real or virtual.
I'm willing to acknowledge that I've some faults - not many of course - and have from time to time treated people poorly for no reason. I've also been the victim of both inverted and regular snobbery. I can only hope that when needed my friends give me a knudge and tell me I'm being and arse and that they are happy if I do likewise.
Now back to the debate, but please folks glass houses and stones........
And again appologies to pjh for picking his quote.0 -
"I'm fully aware that my wife - a teacher - is both harder working than I am and her role in society is FAR more valuable than mine"
Ah, this old chestnut. Teachers hard working? I don't think so. It's nothing more than a myth perpetuated by teachers to deflect attention from the number of days they actually work and the hours they actually teach.0 -
Fair point well made BIGG67
However you missed 'my point' which was 'that I don't look down on anyone" despite the fact I ride quite a nice bike!
What it really seems to boil down to (on lots of similar threads) is that "It's not OK to ride a nice bike if you're a crap cyclist" ... and if you do ride a nice bike without being a top cyclist you're either an "all the gear and no idea type or a cycling snob."
I'm afraid I just don't subscribe to either of these philosophies; I ride a nice bike because I appreciate quality ... that's it! (The fact that I can afford it is helpful).
As for working hard well that is a relative term and I'm certainly not going to bash teachers (I couldn't do their job for any money ... I'd kill the little blighters :twisted: )
I've run two businesses for close on 15 years, and provided employment to hundreds of people in that time. I've known stress from time to time and on occasions I've been very close to going under and losing absolutely everything (in more ways than one!) So that's my definition of hard work ... and I'm certainly not going to take any inverse/reverse snobbery from some halfway decent cyclist who can't afford to ride a bike like mine
Hehe .... bring on the reaction.
It's great to be .....0 -
HarryB wrote:"I'm fully aware that my wife - a teacher - is both harder working than I am and her role in society is FAR more valuable than mine"
Ah, this old chestnut. Teachers hard working? I don't think so. It's nothing more than a myth perpetuated by teachers to deflect attention from the number of days they actually work and the hours they actually teach.
I'll leave this as the baiting it so obviously is, other than to say that you don't live with one so are basing your - personal and therefore valid - perception on what you think rather than what you've observed.
AND to ask if you believe that the entire teaching community get together at Area 51 each year along with those who planned Kennedy's assassination, Princes Di's murder and all the other plots the world has seen to plan this year's messaging........
Bad teacher are lazy, good teachers work very hard, as in most work places, a bit more merit based pay would be nice.
Damn I just couldn't resist could I..... :roll:0 -
pjh wrote:Fair point well made BIGG67
However you missed 'my point' which was 'that I don't look down on anyone" despite the fact I ride quite a nice bike!
What it really seems to boil down to (on lots of similar threads) is that "It's not OK to ride a nice bike if you're a crap cyclist" ... and if you do ride a nice bike without being a top cyclist you're either an "all the gear and no idea type or a cycling snob."
I'm afraid I just don't subscribe to either of these philosophies; I ride a nice bike because I appreciate quality ... that's it! (The fact that I can afford it is helpful).
As for working hard well that is a relative term and I'm certainly not going to bash teachers (I couldn't do their job for any money ... I'd kill the little blighters :twisted: )
I've run two businesses for close on 15 years, and provided employment to hundreds of people in that time. I've known stress from time to time and on occasions I've been very close to going under and losing absolutely everything (in more ways than one!) So that's my definition of hard work ... and I'm certainly not going to take any inverse/reverse snobbery from some halfway decent cyclist who can't afford to ride a bike like mine
Hehe .... bring on the reaction.
Not from me - well not negative anyway, I only picked your comment 'cos it was the most recent.
Looks like you and I got our bikes for the same reason, and why I got a £3000 bike to go with my £3 legs 8)
I like good quality and spend my money on what I appreciate - I'm the kind of guy who will go to Hugo Boss in the sales and spend as much on a suit as I would normally rather than spend less in my normal shops
Bikes are all good in my book and anyone riding deserves a thumbs up.
And finally, good on you for your work (I mean it) hard work is what ever it is and in your case you created wealth as well as a living for your family. Top work fella!0 -
you don't have to look too far to see where the culpret is for all this componant snobbery. Its the media. C+ is as guilty as any.
When I see an equipment or clothing review that selectively ignores the lower priced budget end and reviews and promotes the higher costing top end as good value for money I know its advertisers money that talks.
How can a £120.00 + jacket be reasonably priced and good value for money ? what planet does the reviewer live on.
Would that I had his disposable income to be able to afford top of the range Assos and Dura Ace etc.
If you took the labels off goods no one would buy them . We have become a nation of chavs and sheep baaaaaaaaaab baaaaaaaaaaa0 -
BigG67 wrote:I'll leave this as the baiting it so obviously is, other than to say that you don't live with one so are basing your - personal and therefore valid - perception on what you think rather than what you've observed.
It certainly wasn't baiting.
No, I don't live with a teacher. I live with someone who works a damn sight harder than 99% of teachers in a job that requires far more skill, emotional input and hours on the job.
So, I guess you are going to say this is another of my personal perceptions. No. You see you made a personal perception about me. Guess what I do for a living? Clue. Big building. Lots of kids. Desks. White boards. 13 weeks holiday a year.0 -
Hey Blue, just watch Flying Scotsman and then it will all become clear. If you really must know, the biggest snobbery is who is the fastest, not what bike you ride. Until you race proper like then i'd just wait. FWIW, IMO, ( ), i just rode 2 secs slower on my club 10 after all things being equal on a £3.5k cervelo over a focus with tri bars! So no ay TT bike woo hoo 0
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White boards. 13 weeks holiday a year.
My friend is a lecturer. All in all, over the last 2 months, he had 23 days off and 5 days ill. Phew .. tough job and it's not even summer time yet? What makes it worse is his moaning that he has far too much work on at the moment. Perception is a wonderful thing.
By the way both sister-in-laws are teachers.Paul0 -
HarryB
Well good on you for finding a job where you can be lazy and get away with it. Seriously economy of effort is something cycling has taught me
My better half does put in a huge amount of graft, she's part time on 2 days a week and does an extra each week on prep - paid for 2 works 3 that's effort from my view. For what its worth it's always been my observation that those teachers that complain about the behaviour of the kids are the same ones that are lazy AND the same ones that complain about the amount of work. Mrs67 never complains about the amount she does, but does scream when she hears a bleating crap teacher on the radio talk about the "state of our classrooms".
Also you've missed my points.
I said your position was valid, 'cos it is, you believe it, I wasn't saying otherwise. Just I think you're wrong which is just as valid.
Also my bigger point was that teachers are more valuable to society and therefore SHOULD be paid better than me. I work in PR - sports PR specifically - and this was my basic point.....I earn more and don't feel that I contribute to society half the value my wife does.
All of which get's back to my overriding point.
We are all snobs to a greater or lesser degree and believe that we're better than the next man/woman, 'cos we work harder, 'cos our bike's better or 'cos we built a bike from string and Coke cans.
You're being one 'cos you reckon that teachers are lazy and don't work hard. Truth is never black and white and when more people get the fact that just because you think something it doesn't make it true, just that it's your totaly valid opinion, the better.
Ego, the most powerful of factors.0 -
A lot of differing opinions.......I bought a road bike for £350 and love it, Alu frame and fork the usual stuff, not fantastic but certainly not shite components have replaced a cassette and a chain in the year and 1000+ miles I've done on it, I use it to commute to work and the odd 20+mile ride.
I am never judgemental about what bike someone is riding if it has 2 wheels and works and your happy with it so be it you're the one riding it!!!!
I will never have a carbon bike, not because I can't afford it but I like to think of it like this:-
If you've got a Steel/Alu/Titanium frame and it cracks you can get it welded, what happens if a carbon frame starts to de-laminate or cracks?
So if I'm ever out for a ride and someone looks down their nose at me because I ain't got a carbon bike I don't care what you think it's the small minded people like this that turn people away from cycling. If a person asks you for advice on what bike to get before you start to talk about bikes made of the latest "unobtanium" ask them what they could realistically afford.
Just as a last word...I left a lad on a carbon bike in my wake on the way up a local steep climb (I'm not the fittest and I weigh 20+stone) add to that the weight of my Alu bike and I was pulling a bit of weight.....It doesn't matter how much you spend it's all about getting out there....riding and enjoying it!!!!!!
And yes this was a rant Heaven kicked me out and Hell was too afraid I'd take over!!!
Fighting back since 1975!!
Happy riding
Denny0 -
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Unfortunately, what appears below is not an untypical response on this forum. A new member asks for advice having bought a Shockwave bike from Halfords and ends up having to defend herself against this kind of thing. The first response is the inevitable "you should have spent lots more" post, but then it just degenerates into insult
There are some helpful and positive comments but in between there is this kind of stuff:
OP's original question (extract) -
Alfablue's response (to original question) -"Now you are all probably going to tae the p*** here but I bought a Shockwave XT750 (think thats was the model, lol) from Halfords to replace my 10 year old MB.
... I didn't want t post this in the MB section as I think they are a bit unfriendly in there. We need a section for people who do road riding on MB's...""I don't want to be rude about your bike, but it is at the very bottom of the market;"
Reddragon quoted and responded to the last sentence of the OP -"I don't think starting a Chav section on this forum would be a good idea."
OP -"I hardly think I am a Chav"
Nuggs replies ""Ask Hellfrauds to check your humour gland while you're there"
Heavymental pretends to defend her but then adds salt -"Well come on Nuggs, noone likes being told their bike is for chavs. Although I think most shockwaves are designed for cycling down the chippy but I bet the staff in Halfords didn't expalin that."
Jedster joins in -"It's actually rare to see them on the road - they're generally ridden on the pavement. Perhaps they are "optimised" for that?"
And Reddragon delivers the final insult"To be honest the only people* I see "cycling" on Full sussers, are wearing adidas trackies or jeans, possibly a Burberry cap and are "cycling" on the pavement. I'm hardly call these people cyclists. They are POBs.
Also, You only see bikes belonging to "Proper MTBers" on car racks, never getting used."
http://www.bikeradar.com/forums/viewtop ... t=12556823
Welcome to the happy and inclusive community of cyclists.0 -
Denny69 wrote:Just as a last word...I left a lad on a carbon bike in my wake on the way up a local steep climb (I'm not the fittest and I weigh 20+stone) add to that the weight of my Alu bike and I was pulling a bit of weight.....It doesn't matter how much you spend it's all about getting out there....riding and enjoying it!!!!!!
Does this bit of your post make you a fitness snob? Sounds like it to me. 0
