Money Snobbery

NorwegianBlue

More and more people in this country have virtually zero disposable income. The credit crunch, massive real world inflation, low payrises and ever increasing taxes have seen to that. It's a depressing fact.

I'm an old hand having been one of Thatchers victims. I suffered redundancy followed by ten months unemployment back in the late eighties. Back then Thatcher was supposed to have created a ME generation, selfish people who cared only for themselves were supposedly the norm. However I got loads of sympathy from all sorts of places and lots of unsolicited help too. Now however people living on the breadline seem to get no sympathy whatsoever.

I'm not sure if it's Blair and Brown or the media that have done this, but British society as a whole seems to have little sympathy for the disadvantaged in it's midst. I'm alright Jack is the rallying cry of the British today.

The curious thing is however that nobody is surprised by this. After all the government and the media (step forward in particular Channel 4) have done their best to convince us that we should all be property millionaires and that anybody who isn't hasn't been trying hard enough and deserves all they get.

One thing that has surprised me is the attitude I have come across among cyclists over the last couple of years. On internet forums, club meets and just general informal discussion I've come across a huge amount of snobbery.

I'm not talking about the "my bike's better than yours" sort. That's always been there and stems from the usual human insecurities that are too obvious to discuss. However with those insecurities used to come pity. Yes a rider would look down their nose at your bike, but might in the same breath offer you some half worn tyres because yours were down to the canvas.

The sort of snobbery that I've encountered over the last couple of years is this: Ask for recommendations for a bike at a particular budget price point and you'll get any number of pricks suggesting that you won't get a decent bike at that price and you should save up more. Take the proper budget end of the road bike market, sub £300. You can get a lot more bike for that money now than you could a few years ago. Indeed a £300 bike today is probably better than a £500 bike five years ago. However ask for advice on a £300 bike and you'll be told you have to pay at least £500 to get a reasonable entry level bike. Don't bother with a £300 bike, you'll be told, they're all junk. Some of these pricks may well be riding £500 bikes that they've had for 5 years in which case it could just be sour grapes that £300 bikes are as good as they are today, but I doubt it. No it's the nastiest form of snobbery. Without even asking your circumstances these dickheads are deriding someone for having less disposable income than them. It could have taken the hopeful and age to save up even the meagre sum they have and yet often these pillocks will dash their hopes with news that they need to save up the same amount again before they can get a bike worth having.

The funny thing about these inadequates is that they will often then make a rather curious claim. Which is that whatever their own bike cost is the pinnacle (no not the brand) of bicycle value and that there is no point paying more. The way I read this is that they anybody paying less than they did for a bike is a pauper, anybody paying more is a capitalist, running dog, lackey (ahem!) or a sucker. In other words they are going on the defensive about their own financial status before anybody has a go at them.

It's not just the bottom end of the price range that's of concern here. I recently heard someone who, when asked what full suss XC bike they should get for about £1200, replied that there were no full sussers for less than two grand worth having and at £1200 you could just about get a reasonabe hardtail.

I'm sure it's the same in every other hobby these days, even my old favourites of power kiting and, god forbid, surfing are probably populated by these same inadequacy driven losers. But what I'd love to know is why?

When these pillocks enter the next club ten and get wiped out by some bloke on a bargain basment bike do they really console themselves with the knowledge that they have more disposable income? Will they approach that rider and explain that their bike is junk?

On second thoughts they probably don't enter competitions. They are probably the sort who train all the time but never compete. They probably tell everybody how fit they are without ever having to prove it.

Oh well. I just hope they all end up having to sell their bikes and buy something from the car boot sale when the property market crashes.

pjm-84

I assume you've had a bad day........

redddraggon

You talk about £300 road bikes being good? Most of the bits on mine have failed on it through wear and tear already - if you really are going to use the bike a lot it really is worth spending a bit more - the money I saved on buying a cheaper bike I've had to spend on replacing the bits.

In my experience if you're only going to be doing the odd 20mile ride a week a £300 bike might do you fine, but if you are going to be really racking up the miles they fall apart rather quickly.

Slow Downcp

NorwegianBlue wrote:

When these pillocks enter the next club ten and get wiped out by some bloke on a bargain basment bike do they really console themselves with the knowledge that they have more disposable income? Will they approach that rider and explain that their bike is junk?

On second thoughts they probably don't enter competitions. They are probably the sort who train all the time but never compete. They probably tell everybody how fit they are without ever having to prove it.[/quote/]

Yeah, lets stereotype - all Porsche drivers are to55ers as they'll never race, and anyone who goes to the gym must be a dick because they'll never win Worlds Strongest Man.

Yes - my best bike cost well more than my ability deserves, and it will only see the occasional TT. My winter bike is what many people would be happy to have as a best bike, and my £1,200 hardtail is only used for messing about on trails and singletrack. But so what - I've spent years working my ar5e off to get to where I am now and earn a good salary, and I choose to spend it on cycling, rather than cigarettes, drink, and drugs. I don't spend £1,000 buying a season ticket to watch football every week.

At the same time, I don't think - look at that prat, wearing lycra and he's only riding a bike from Halfords.

Don't know what you're issue really is, but you need to get over it. :?

redddraggon

Oh and it's funny that most of these people that apparently have no disposable income run a car, drink too much, and often even smoke.

I know people who "don't have any money", but they still run a car that they could easily live without - how much would ditching the car save them?

nickwill

redddraggon wrote:

You talk about £300 road bikes being good? Most of the bits on mine have failed on it through wear and tear already - if you really are going to use the bike a lot it really is worth spending a bit more - the money I saved on buying a cheaper bike I've had to spend on replacing the bits.

In my experience if you're only going to be doing the odd 20mile ride a week a £300 bike might do you fine, but if you are going to be really racking up the miles they fall apart rather quickly.

Spot on!
We're not talking about snobbery here, just reality. There is a realistic price beneath which it is not possible to build supply and sell a bike of any quality. More potential cyclists must have been put off the sport by cheaply produced , low quality bikes , than by anything else.

always_tyred

If all you have is £300 and you want to ride....... indeed, if £300 is all you WANT to spend, what's wrong with that?

I think I get where NorwegianBlue is coming from, but twas ever thus. However, perhaps (I honestly couldn't tell you) the cycling community was previously a bit alternative and is now becoming main stream. Perhaps people are cycling for different reasons, or different people have bikes.

Alternatively, perhaps these dashed computer thingimies simply bring us into contact with a wider range of cyclists, for whom "beautiful plumage" is overtly important.

NorwegianBlue

Nickwill wrote:

Spot on!
We're not talking about snobbery here, just reality. There is a realistic price beneath which it is not possible to build supply and sell a bike of any quality. More potential cyclists must have been put off the sport by cheaply produced , low quality bikes , than by anything else.

So you completely missed the bit about the £1200 full susser. It matters not what the price point, there are always snobs who will come back and tell you that you'll only get junk for that money.

And when it comes to the lack of disposable income. No I don't drink, smoke, have satellite TV or any of that crap. I use my bike and public transport to get to work. Which is a pain because my working hours are limitted by timetables. Yes the wife has a car, but living as we do in an ex-mining village with one shop and a hopeless bus service and a two year old, there is little alternative. And we live out here because a small house like ours would cost 25% more in one of the nearby towns. We didn't realise the reason for this until we moved in. There are no amenities and the public transport is apalling.

It is true that some people plead poverty when they smoke, drink and have every luxury item available, but I don't plead poverty because I have what I need and I'm happy with my lot. My bikes didn't cost a fortune, but I know they are good enough for me. I know the spec of my road bike does the job, I know a dirt bike like mine would probably cost about a grand new although I built it for about a third of that.

What pisses me off is the crap that other people have to put up with. I gave the example of the £300 road bike because it's what happened to a young friend of mine recently. He's going to start univerity next year and has no income of his own as such. £300 quid might not be a lot to you, but when you consider the additional cash he will need to spend on associated roady gear it easilly becomes double that. Here's a young man who is being sensible enough to have spent a while saving up so as not to take out a huge student loan, so he won't start his working life deeply in debt. And yet the members of his local road club simply informed him that there was no point in spending that sort of money and he needed to spend a grand on an entry level bike. Makes me want to spit.

However one decision he has made is that his plan to join the university's road club and his home club has now been cancelled. He's going to stick to mountainbiking as a hobby. And buy a cheap slick equipped MTB for his daily commute. So the elitist attitude of the club has lost them a potential member.

richardjallen

NorwegianBlue wrote:

However one decision he has made is that his plan to join the university's road club and his home club has now been cancelled. He's going to stick to mountainbiking as a hobby. And buy a cheap slick equipped MTB for his daily commute. So the elitist attitude of the club has lost them a potential member.

That's a sad story when you put it like that.

When it comes to cheap bike I have had two cheap mountain bikes to communte on. They were both about £250. The second one rusted at the first drop of water and was horrible. The first had a dodgy bottom bracket. I would hope that you would get more for your money from a cheap road bike as with no suspension forks etc. they are simpler.

I don't know about your idea that a £300 bike today will be better/equal to a £500 of 5 years ago. In the short time I've been watching, groupsets have improved. But then as you have acknowledged inflation has eaten away at the value of money anyway. Do bike companies have any interest in making cheap components last longer?

A friend of mine has a 15 year old bike and tells me all the time how the wheels are fine and so is the frame. The breaks however look wimpy compared to dual pivots. I doubt my aluminium rims will be usable in 15 years and I don't think he paid much for it because he would only have been about 15 when he bought it and not rolling in money. If he got a bike now in a similar price bracket as the one he got then I don't think it would last 15 years.

pjm-84

Don't get me on students......

If you asked me what bike to get for £300 I would say go to Halfords or better still buy a discounted previous year's model or secondhand. Don't expect much. ( A friend of mine had a budget of £400 for an MTB and I gave him plenty of researched options but he went straight to the big H and fully appreciates, now, the advice I offered)

£400 - I would say a Dawes or a Ribble. Probably the Ribble.

£500 - a little more choice / better spec

£600 - £700 - A good range. The new Trek a pretty good buy

You pays your money and takes your choice. But I would find it hard to offer advice on a £300 budget.

markos1963

I have always subscribed to the 'Its not what you ride, but how you ride' school of thought. It was Eddie Mercx who was spotted overtaking an elite clubrun as a boy on a butchers bike! I came across the same attitudes in motorbiking and it was one of the reasons I gave up. However NorwegianBlue I don't subscribe to the sackcloth and ashes point of view either, technology moves on and so do prices. Its great to see all the carbon and titanium around and its comforting to know cycling is leading the way compared to motorbikes, cars etc. I would not ever criticise someone for buying cheap to get themselves started( I spent 30quid on a mail order MTB) but don't criticise me because I have worked hard and made sacrifices to buy the best I can afford even though I might not need it.

always_tyred

Gosh there's some worrying attitudes here.

I suddenly got the point when I heard about the experience with the "Road Club". The dreaded group of people who believe that joining requires a rite of passage.

Even worse the guy who states "I bet he doesn't even race and just trains alone".

Hey, blockhead, that's me. You know why I ride? For one its transport. Second, I love it - its gets me away from the city, away from most cars and away from you. You know why I don't race? I got fed up of nearly loosing my bike, my skin, or my consciousness diving out of the way of wannabe Robbie McEwans at crits taking my front wheel off, or loosing their back wheel.

Not uncoincidentally, these tended to be the same people who all had US postal Treks and would get snobbish about who had te 5200, who had the 5500 and who had the 5900.

Bet you are a member of a club aren't you? Bet you are REALLY NICE TO NEWCOMERS IF THEIR BIKE IS WORTHY.

Does that qualify as an entirely new rant?

Slow Downcp

[quote=
Even worse the guy who states "I bet he doesn't even race and just trains alone".
[/quote]

Wasn't it the OP who made this statement? Do you agree with the point he is making or not as you seem to have changed you mind between your two posts?

redddraggon

pjm-84 wrote:

Don't get me on students......

We're not all bad, we don't all get funded by mummy and daddy. I worked while I was at school, worked while at uni during my first two years and have just spent the last year working full time as part of my degree. I don't spend stupid amounts of money on stuff like alcohol and have spent my money on things that are still around a few years later.

It's all about making the right decisions, some people choose to waste their time in school or take on too many financial responsibilities that are unnecessary. Why should the people who have made the right decisions be penalised by having to subsidise those who have made the wrong decisions. Some of the local schools are full of wasters, but there's still some who make it to university to do even proper degrees like medicine - it's the UK and the opportunities are there but a lot won't make use of them.

Communism doesn't work. Why should the successful ones subsidise the wasters? We all know the wasters will remain wasters if they carry on getting subsidised.

st68

i get a acknowledged when im on my road bike but not when im on my road adapted mtb thats snobbery i nod to all cyclists cos we all get the same bulls**t off car drivers

Eat My Dust

I remember a few years back entering a hill climb on a sora equiped £500 bike. There was a few raised eyebrows at the off, but when I had beaten more than half of the "proper roadies" I got a bit more respect.

OffTheBackAdam

More and more people in this country have virtually zero disposable income. The credit crunch, massive real world inflation, low payrises and ever increasing taxes have seen to that. It's a depressing fact.

Yep, I'd go with that. Enjoying our lovely time with Socialism are you?

I'm an old hand having been one of Thatchers victims. I suffered redundancy followed by ten months unemployment back in the late eighties.

I'm one of Blair's/Brown's victims!
Made redundant 3 times in 3 years, more than 12 month's unemployment in total.

However I got loads of sympathy from all sorts of places and lots of unsolicited help too. Now however people living on the breadline seem to get no sympathy whatsoever.

The wonders of Socialism! When you're down on your luck, The State will take care of you, it's their duty and no one elses. Only people with the appropriate qualifications and who are on The State's payroll are now allowed to offer help. Everyone else must keep their noses out.

The sort of snobbery that I've encountered over the last couple of years is this: Ask for recommendations for a bike at a particular budget price point and you'll get any number of pricks suggesting that you won't get a decent bike at that price and you should save up more.

You'll get the same with anything, telescopes? (Tasco, they're shit mate!) Car? (A Perudo, bag of wank pal!) Jeans, (Bloody Tesco? You a doley?)

Oh well. I just hope they all end up having to sell their bikes and buy something from the car boot sale when the property market crashes

Then you can look down on them and sneer too, make you feel better will it?

Tootler

Nar then Norweiganblue. I hail from the same part of the world that you live and it is home to two basic categories of people; honest hardworking salt of the earth types, and lazy scrounging whingeing bastards who think the world owes them a living.
Some of the observations you make I can relate to, but the points seem to be diluted by what comes across as 'its all the government's fault' nonsense which sort of epitomises the latter of my two types of people categories. So which type are you?

As for the snobbery stuff; the world is littered with those types of w@nkers and there's nothing you can do about it, other than recognise them for what they are and pity them. And maybe for a bit of sport, wind them up a bit in whatever way you can; spoil their day instead.

Slow Downcp talks sense too.

squired

I always love snobbery in its different forms. Rather than bikes, look at tvs. I can buy a 50 inch plasma for (lets say) £800, but the top rated version costs something like £4000. The top rated version is superior, but if I don't have them next to each other I'm never going to know. Now lets apply that to bikes. When I was at university I rode on a bike that I'd saved a year for (plus birthday and Christmas money), worth something like £350. I loved it. I had cheap crappy cycling clothing that I would probably find unbearable now I've tried the good stuff. The thing is that I couldn't afford better, so to me it was a great ride. Now I'm working in a decent job and I ride to work on a bike worth over £1,000. It is a lovely ride, and the clothing I now have is perfect for the job. If I compare the two its a different world. Having said that, you can only ride one bike at a time and when I ride my old uni bike I still enjoy it. I just appreciate how much better the ride on my newer bike is when I use it.

People who apply snobbery with cycling gear are probably the same people who are desperate to tell everyone what car they drive, how much the shirt they are wearing cost, etc. Also, we all have different priorities in life. My mate just spent £25K on a brand new car because he was so concerned by the fact that every one else in his Cul de sac had newer, more expensive cars, than him. At the same time he says he will be sending his daughter to state school when she reaches the relevant age as he can't afford the cost of going private. Another friend has just spent £60K on a BMW convertible, yet still lives at home with his parents.

With bikes it can be tricky. A £400 bike rides infinitely better than a £100 bike. A £1000 bike rides even better. However, there is a critical price where the excess pounds don't correllate well with the improvement in quality. I don't know what that is - probably someone in the cycling retail business would have a better idea. Having said that, bike A and bike B, both costing the same can ride completely differently. At university my brother and I had bikes costing the same, but different brands. His was awful compared to mine and he eventually got rid of it.

In our modern society everyone seems to obsessed with what everyone else has and wants the same or better. Its one of the biggest problems of modern life for me. People have forgotten that it is the simple things that make you happy, but instead are constantly unhappy because they want whatever they don't have.

richardjallen

NorwegianBlue,

Not many posters have supported your feelings and although I'm not sure about your idea on how good cheap bikes are but it is unfortunate that such snobbery exists.

The same friend who has the 15 year old bike won't set foot on a golf course for instance because he says they are full of snobs. My answer to that is, go and play golf and readdress the balance, but that's my disposition.

But such snobbery is not healthy. I can see that people divide themselves up, become polarised. I don't see happy societies.

Let's all have a group hug.

Clever Pun

Tootler wrote:

As for the snobbery stuff; the world is littered with those types of w@nkers and there's nothing you can do about it, other than recognise them for what they are and pity them. And maybe for a bit of sport, wind them up a bit in whatever way you can; spoil their day instead.

Slow Downcp talks sense too.

jesus wept

Everyone one of us has been a snob about something at some point.

I guess people are competetive, don't stop doing that but be helpful to others who are trying to better themselves in their eyes or start something new

Special K

Nice to hear from you NorwegianBlue. Wasn't sure there was anyone actually left in West Yorkshire. I thought they'd all come to London to be estate agents and drive BMWs.

Us Londonders have welcomed them with open arms, we're not fussy. After all, we're always welcome when we go up north regardless of what bikes we ride.

Tom Butcher

I really doubt many people would say you have to spend a grand on a road bike for it to be worthwhile - if that's what happened he must have been spectacularly unlucky to ask such an unrepresentative bunch of roadies. The same goes for people raising their eyebrows at a sora equipped bike in a hill climb. The other year I raced against a guy on a mercian with a 7 speed block and downtube shifters - if anything he got a bit of respect for it there was certainly no snobbery towards him that I saw. When I read threads like this I think either the clubs/roadies in my area must be different to the ones wherever these elitists live or else people are reading too much into innocent comments - perhaps they want to believe road clubs are elitist as an excuse for being too shy to have joined one ?

NorwegianBlue

OffTheBackAdam wrote:

More and more people in this country have virtually zero disposable income. The credit crunch, massive real world inflation, low payrises and ever increasing taxes have seen to that. It's a depressing fact.

Yep, I'd go with that. Enjoying our lovely time with Socialism are you?

Sorry, you've lost me there. What's our current government got to do with socialism? The last time I looked we didn't have a singled socialist MP let alone a socialist goverment.

With political awareness like that it's to be hoped you are one of the 60-odd percent who stayed away from the polls last month.

NorwegianBlue

Interesting point regarding the relative quality of cheap MTBs and Road bikes. A sub £300 MTB will, IME, be better quality than a road bike at the same price from the same manufacturer. The reason for this being that the manufacturer will sell many more of the MTB than the road bike so economies of scale come into play.

Also consider the relative prices of components. Now that even low end road bikes are coming with carbon forks, how do you suppose they compare in price to a cheap suspension fork? They'll certainly cost more than a rigid MTB fork, and a rigid is still the best entry level MTB option. Compare the price of a pair of Sora STIs to something like the Altus flat bar equivalent. That difference is due in part to the fact that the Sora bits are more complex to make and also in part to the fact that Shimano make a squillion times more Altus bits than Sora bits.

I've had experience of a sub £300 MTB, a Hardrock, which has done it's owner three years of sterling service, nothing has broken but he's worn out the cassette twice and the chainrings have just gone and he's hammered it.

bagpusscp

Its is no good having a £1000 bike if you have only got a £100 pair of legs.On the other hand if you have a £1000 pair of legs you could always be a model :shock:

APIII

bagpusscp wrote:

Its is no good having a £1000 bike if you have only got a £100 pair of legs.On the other hand if you have a £1000 pair of legs you could always be a model :shock:

ooh, careful. We're edging towards the 'justify your bike purchase based on your ability' argument. As has been pointed out many times before, if we all rode bikes based on our ability, Halfords would sell a hell of a lot of bikes.

richardjallen

NorwegianBlue wrote:

Interesting point regarding the relative quality of cheap MTBs and Road bikes. A sub £300 MTB will, IME, be better quality than a road bike at the same price from the same manufacturer. The reason for this being that the manufacturer will sell many more of the MTB than the road bike so economies of scale come into play.

Sounds more likely than my argument that road bikes have simpler parts.

NorwegianBlue wrote:

Also consider the relative prices of components. Now that even low end road bikes are coming with carbon forks, how do you suppose they compare in price to a cheap suspension fork? They'll certainly cost more than a rigid MTB fork, and a rigid is still the best entry level MTB option.

Carbon is supposed to be easy to make into frames. Fork blades cannot be difficult either so I'm sceptical that a carbon bladed fork (one that would come with a cheaper bike) would cost more than even a cheap sus fork. Not sure when comparing to a rigid fork.

NorwegianBlue wrote:

Compare the price of a pair of Sora STIs to something like the Altus flat bar equivalent. That difference is due in part to the fact that the Sora bits are more complex to make and also in part to the fact that Shimano make a squillion times more Altus bits than Sora bits.

I think you are right there as well.

NorwegianBlue wrote:

I've had experience of a sub £300 MTB, a Hardrock, which has done it's owner three years of sterling service, nothing has broken but he's worn out the cassette twice and the chainrings have just gone and he's hammered it.

I guess it depends on which one you buy. The one I had that rusted away was a Giant Boulder. The first one I had was a Saracen and it was good for three years apart from the bottom bracket grinding away very quickly and the axle in the rear wheel snapping. The drive train was ground away as well but I put that down to my own failure to clean it for the last year.

pjh

Why the need for all the insults and swearing NorwegianBlue??

We're all different, all entitled to our own opinions, and we all take different paths in life.

I for one am glad that's the case ... vive la difference!

NorwegianBlue

Opinions are one thing, but when asked for advice one should be constructive. To tell somebody that their hard earned or saved cash is worthless is not opinion, it's high handed, arrogant and just plain offensive.

When somebody wants to take up our wonderful hobby do you think it's a good idea to tell them not to bother?

Oh, and I am always offended by people taking refuge in offence to a little anglo saxon terminology.

richardjallen

NorwegianBlue wrote:

Oh, and I am always offended by people taking refuge in offence to a little anglo saxon terminology.

I think I know what you mean. Nicely put 'taking refuge in offence'.