The Giro

135

Comments

  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    micron wrote:
    But the problem for cycling, like it is for the World Cup, that if you do not allow the small teams to ride at the highest level, how will they ever improve?

    However, if you think that Astana only knew 1 week ago then, I'm sorry, you are easily fooled - they were confident in March that they would ride the Giro because they knew all they had to do was send the star names and they would be re-invited and that became a very good option once ASO said 'no' to the Tour.

    I expect we will find that Contador is unbeatable form - I wonder if he informed the UCI of his whereabouts on his holiday? But he is protected by Spanish Government and Mr McQuaid so I expect he can do as he pleases.

    well he sure doesn't sound that confident as you are fooled to believe. He might not even finish the Giro....
    http://www.as.com/ciclismo/articulo/cic ... icic_1/Tes
  • Salsiccia
    Salsiccia Posts: 405
    micron wrote:
    But the problem for cycling, like it is for the World Cup, that if you do not allow the small teams to ride at the highest level, how will they ever improve?

    Not quite the same really. There are plenty of smaller races for teams to improve and develop; and when the riders improve they can move to bigger teams.

    There will always be smaller teams who don't get into big races. It is a fact in cycling that budgets dictate everything.
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    So no small teams should ever get the opportunity to ride in the big races? And any good riders they have must move to bigger teams to be able to ride in the big races? Not only is this very cynical but ignores what has traditionally happened in the history of the Giro where ALL Italian teams have been given entry and then a few wild cards issued to outsiders. The RCS have very much to thank the ProTour for, I think.

    I was also being cynical and making a joke to suggest that Contador would suddenly have super form. But I am not fooled that Astana are a 'new' team and that everything they say to the world is the truth.

    Maybe I will have to use the emoticons each time as my attempts of humour here don't work well :wink:
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    no, it's your illogical posts that doesn't work well here.... :wink:
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Sorry, what is illogical? You didn't know then that Bruyneel was in Khazakstan talking to the sport's minister and then it being reported that they had 'solved the problem of the Giro'? And you believe all riders who say that they do not have great form going into a race? Maybe you forget that Contador is riding for Bruyneel, the man who engineered the great bluff of 'the Look'? But I am glad for you Arkibal that you trust everything that people say is the truth :wink:
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Arkibal wrote:
    no, it's your illogical posts that doesn't work well here.... :wink:

    On the contrary, Micron's posts make perfect seems, when you remove the Astana blinkers for a moment.

    It's the reason the the GT organisers split from the UCI stranglehold. They wanted to restore freedom of selection choice for races that they own. Part of that strategy icluded benevolence towards smaller, home grown squads.
    Stands to reason, that in offering a chance to compete at a higher level, encourages and increases a young riders potential.

    As for the "Squeaky Clean Routine", there is a potential bombshell that might, or might not explode over Bruyneel's team. The news from Germany isn't good, regarding doctor's fees for specific T Mob riders, during 2006/7.
    Let's hope Andreas Kloeden doesn't end up in this spotlight, mid Giro. It seems that certain parties like to use the Grand Tours to maximum effect. See today's news on Alessandro Petacchi. ( and Patxi Vila :( )

    Oh and yes, Astana have known their inclusion was on the cards for some time. Several sources on this.
    My only surprise is how the UCI managed not to leak, this time! :roll:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Doobz
    Doobz Posts: 2,800
    How realistic is it to expect any sort of decent result from Astana? I mean I know they are a great outfit in terms of their riders but surely the Giro is something that a rider and a team would have had to prepare for months ahead?

    What do you think it involves trying to get a team ready for a race less like this in less then 2 - 3 weeks?
    cartoon.jpg
  • allaction
    allaction Posts: 209
    I think the smaller teams will always be the smaller teams, it's the way of the world I'm afraid. They serve there purpose in un-earthing the stars of the future who in turn move to the teams with the biggest budgets. It's the way it always has been and will be. Nothing cynical just the food chain.

    If the upcoming Euro championships were decided by Uefa and not through qualifying do you think England would not be there purely on commercial value. The only argument you could is if the smaller teams had some form of qualifier for large events and the field was enlarged to accomodate them.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    This was reported on March 1:

    "...Last week Johab Bruyneel has visited our capital. At a meeting with the president of domestic Federation of cycling Danialom Ahmetov which now is Minister of Defence of the country, it has been solved for « Giro де Italy to struggle…Armed by the updated list, {Bruyneel} has gone on the further negotiations to the Europe. Simultaneously in all national federations the European countries from our federation letters where concern of Kazakhstan is once again expressed by occuring events have been dispatched.'

    So to say Astana only have 3 weeks to prepare is not quite true - it seems as if they may have been preparing since February :wink:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    micron wrote:

    So to say Astana only have 3 weeks to prepare is not quite true - it seems as if they may have been preparing since February :wink:

    So, in your theory, why did RCS only "invite" them this past week? Surely it would have involved less flack to do it a while ago. After all High Horse were in the same boat

    I think it might have something to do with the American market. Getting Levi is of great interest for them.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    I seem to remember some years ago that Pantani simply turned up for the team presentation and then rode the race - but do you imagine he hadn't prepared for the race for some time before that? What would Bruyneel have to lose to prepare his team for the Giro? All I am saying is that perhaps this is not so 'surprising' as Astana want you to believe.

    As for the late 'invite' - maybe an Italian love of the theatrical?
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    First people moan about no invite for Astana, now they moan about not having proper preparation time. God help us, if Astana don't take all the podium places.
    Kloeden's had a perfect run in; going nicely in Turkey and flying at Romandie,
    Leipheimer rode comfortably within himself at Georgia, less than two weeks ago (that should tell you something) and has already spoken positively about 4 TT's.
    Contador was untouchable in Basque Country. A holiday should mean he's fresh and has 10 days of testing racing to get ready for the mountains.

    Savoldelli won in 2005, without a proper team and hardly getting on a bike before Romandie.
    Or is this not the sort of preparation that folks are so worried about? :roll:

    Is this pessimism or looking for excuses, just in case. All before the race has started?

    Look on the bright side: Not long now, before you'll be getting Vino back! :lol:
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    First people moan about no invite for Astana, now they moan about not having proper preparation time. God help us, if Astana don't take all the podium places.
    Kloeden's had a perfect run in; going nicely in Turkey and flying at Romandie,
    Leipheimer rode comfortably within himself at Georgia, less than two weeks ago (that should tell you something) and has already spoken positively about 4 TT's.
    Contador was untouchable in Basque Country. A holiday should mean he's fresh and has 10 days of testing racing to get ready for the mountains.

    Savoldelli won in 2005, without a proper team and hardly getting on a bike before Romandie.
    Or is this not the sort of preparation that folks are so worried about? :roll:

    Is this pessimism or looking for excuses, just in case. All before the race has started?

    Look on the bright side: Not long now, before you'll be getting Vino back! :lol:

    Did any of the Astana riders have the chance to check the mountains or any of the route? Nope.
    I'm not holding high hopes for the team to do well, though I'm pleased to see them in.
    Your hatred against the team is pretty annoying, same goes for micron.
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    First people moan about no invite for Astana, now they moan about not having proper preparation time. God help us, if Astana don't take all the podium places.
    Kloeden's had a perfect run in; going nicely in Turkey and flying at Romandie,
    Leipheimer rode comfortably within himself at Georgia, less than two weeks ago (that should tell you something) and has already spoken positively about 4 TT's.
    Contador was untouchable in Basque Country. A holiday should mean he's fresh and has 10 days of testing racing to get ready for the mountains.

    Savoldelli won in 2005, without a proper team and hardly getting on a bike before Romandie.
    Or is this not the sort of preparation that folks are so worried about? :roll:

    Is this pessimism or looking for excuses, just in case. All before the race has started?

    Look on the bright side: Not long now, before you'll be getting Vino back! :lol:

    Did any of the Astana riders have the chance to check the mountains or any of the route? Nope.
    I'm not holding high hopes for the team to do well, though I'm pleased to see them in.
    Your hatred against the team is pretty annoying, same goes for micron.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,123
    Arkibal wrote:
    Did any of the Astana riders have the chance to check the mountains or any of the route? Nope.
    I'm not holding high hopes for the team to do well, though I'm pleased to see them in.
    Your hatred against the team is pretty annoying, same goes for micron.

    I agree with you Arkibal. I don't think anybody has moaned about lack of preparation. The team certainly haven't, they are just glad to be able to ride. The logistics of organising a team for a 3 week race is mind boggling, more so with a week's notice! Not sure they could have kept that quiet for the last 2 months.

    Either way I'm glad that they are in.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Arkibal wrote:
    Did any of the Astana riders have the chance to check the mountains or any of the route? Nope.
    I'm not holding high hopes for the team to do well, though I'm pleased to see them in.
    Your hatred against the team is pretty annoying, same goes for micron.

    On the contrary, I don't hate Astana, I'm just not a fanboy of any particular individual riders or team. I try to follow cycling as objectively as possible, from top to bottom, including Juniors and Women's racing.
    I do, however, feel the need to give an alternative point of view to those who follow the sport in the same way as your average football supporter.

    Let's face it, you not only want Astana to win the Giro, you don't want that rider to be Andreas Kloeden. It has to be one of the two old Disco lads, doesn't it?

    Me? I don't mind who wins, from whichever team, just so long as we get an epic race.
    If we get that, and either Contador or Leipheimer is the victor, that's fine, too.

    As for riding the climbs, that's niave. Lance is gone and this is not the Tour, but the Giro in May. Riders reconnoiter the climbs, but rarely get to climb them. Snow make most of the roads impassible.
    Kronplatz? 3 metres of snow, until 2 weeks ago. I've watched how they "practice" these climbs on Italian tv. A group of riders, often from a mix of teams, club ride as far as the road closure, then down again. There is little in the way of a hidden training agenda.
    The Astana lads are probably checking them out, as we type.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • secretsqirrel
    secretsqirrel Posts: 2,123
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Let's face it, you not only want Astana to win the Giro, you don't want that rider to be Andreas Kloeden. It has to be one of the two old Disco lads, doesn't it?

    Wrong, wrong, wrong....... Klodi is my man everytime! 8)

    We all enjoy our cycling the way we please, I'm getting a bit bored of being preached at. :twisted:
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    Blazing Saddles wrote:
    Arkibal wrote:
    Did any of the Astana riders have the chance to check the mountains or any of the route? Nope.
    I'm not holding high hopes for the team to do well, though I'm pleased to see them in.
    Your hatred against the team is pretty annoying, same goes for micron.

    On the contrary, I don't hate Astana, I'm just not a fanboy of any particular individual riders or team. I try to follow cycling as objectively as possible, from top to bottom, including Juniors and Women's racing.
    I do, however, feel the need to give an alternative point of view to those who follow the sport in the same way as your average football supporter.

    Let's face it, you not only want Astana to win the Giro, you don't want that rider to be Andreas Kloeden. It has to be one of the two old Disco lads, doesn't it?

    Me? I don't mind who wins, from whichever team, just so long as we get an epic race.
    If we get that, and either Contador or Leipheimer is the victor, that's fine, too.

    As for riding the climbs, that's niave. Lance is gone and this is not the Tour, but the Giro in May. Riders reconnoiter the climbs, but rarely get to climb them. Snow make most of the roads impassible.
    Kronplatz? 3 metres of snow, until 2 weeks ago. I've watched how they "practice" these climbs on Italian tv. A group of riders, often from a mix of teams, club ride as far as the road closure, then down again. There is little in the way of a hidden training agenda.
    The Astana lads are probably checking them out, as we type.

    I'm too looking for a great race, and I'm pleased that the top stage race teams are in.
    I don't care who wins, but would it be Klöden, well, that would just be great!
    Thanks for clarifying your wiew(s), sorry if I sounded hars earlier.
  • DaveyL
    DaveyL Posts: 5,167
    I've often wondered why US Postal/Discovery had "fanboys", but the European teams just had plain old "fans"...
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    Hey, then that's fine. On form, it should be klodi.

    Now, I think it's time to move on to the race and other possible winners.
    Why is Dennis Menchov riding? Surely it can't be for training purposes? He must have a chance, too, with 4 TT's. But are Rabo too weak in the mountains? He seems to only have Ardila for company.
    Soler, too, must be a threat, with all those climbs.
    Arroyo says he wants a top 5 spot and that, when riding for Jose Rujano. Look to the little Venezulan to light up the race. I think he's got his 2005 form back.
    It's great to think there are serious contenders coming from outside Italy.

    I don't think Rocky Ricco has anything like last year's form and Di Luca was mis-firing at the Giro del Trentino, last week. Could very well be the first non-Italian winner since 1996. (Tonkov)

    and what about stage 2? That first road stage profile looks a real bi*ch.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    I too hope for an epic race and may the best rider win. Like Blazing Saddles I am a life long fan of the sport itself. To read I am a 'hater' of any team is strange to me as I am not a follower of teams. But it is clear that Astana were not invited at the last minute and that they have had more time to prepare than they are saying which means that they should be sending a strong and well prepapred team to the race. This is just Johann having a little mind game with his opposition, I think, as he has always done. All I hope for is good competition where the racing is open and not too dominated by any team, which is the way that I enjoy racing.
  • donrhummy
    donrhummy Posts: 2,329
    micron wrote:
    I too hope for an epic race and may the best rider win. Like Blazing Saddles I am a life long fan of the sport itself. To read I am a 'hater' of any team is strange to me as I am not a follower of teams. But it is clear that Astana were not invited at the last minute and that they have had more time to prepare than they are saying which means that they should be sending a strong and well prepapred team to the race. This is just Johann having a little mind game with his opposition, I think, as he has always done. All I hope for is good competition where the racing is open and not too dominated by any team, which is the way that I enjoy racing.

    You really think that if he was given plenty of time to prepare that Johan would publicly criticize RCS, the group that's letting them into the Giro unlike ASO keeping them out of everything? That'd be biting the hand that feeds you and does not seem like the PR-savy Johan.

    And remember, you also assume that Levi's perfectly fine lying as well and that Johan and RCS both were confidant that everyone invloved (all the riders, trainers, etc) would all lie as well. Because if they were preparing for the Giro for a while now, they'd ALL know about it (otherwise how can they prepare?).
  • deltadawn
    deltadawn Posts: 168
    micron wrote:
    I too hope for an epic race and may the best rider win...... All I hope for is good competition where the racing is open and not too dominated by any team, which is the way that I enjoy racing.

    Agreed!

    Is it Saturday yet? :P
  • Cumulonimbus
    Cumulonimbus Posts: 1,730
    donrhummy wrote:
    micron wrote:
    I too hope for an epic race and may the best rider win. Like Blazing Saddles I am a life long fan of the sport itself. To read I am a 'hater' of any team is strange to me as I am not a follower of teams. But it is clear that Astana were not invited at the last minute and that they have had more time to prepare than they are saying which means that they should be sending a strong and well prepapred team to the race. This is just Johann having a little mind game with his opposition, I think, as he has always done. All I hope for is good competition where the racing is open and not too dominated by any team, which is the way that I enjoy racing.

    You really think that if he was given plenty of time to prepare that Johan would publicly criticize RCS, the group that's letting them into the Giro unlike ASO keeping them out of everything? That'd be biting the hand that feeds you and does not seem like the PR-savy Johan.

    And remember, you also assume that Levi's perfectly fine lying as well and that Johan and RCS both were confidant that everyone invloved (all the riders, trainers, etc) would all lie as well. Because if they were preparing for the Giro for a while now, they'd ALL know about it (otherwise how can they prepare?).

    True but then havent whole teams and their organisation kept schtum about doping in the past (and some probably still do as well)?
  • Arkibal
    Arkibal Posts: 850
    This is what micron wrote at cyclinforums about Astana getting in the Giro (it was not confirmed yet)...

    "Wishful thinking - why on earth would Italian sponsors want a motley crew of Spanish/American/Khazak dopers in a race that prefers its winners (and dopers) to be homegrown?"
    http://www.cyclingforums.com/t461042.html

    speaks volumes of his/hers attitude..... :roll:
    and proves that he/she was wrong, since Astana made it....
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    My attitude is different to yours, this proves what? And yes I was wrong but I don't think I have ever said I could see the future :D Are Astana any more or less dirty than another team? Who knows? What I was saying was that there are enough dirty riders in the Giro already.

    But I am flattered that you wish to stalk me, Arkibel :wink:
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    Arkibal wrote:
    "Wishful thinking - why on earth would Italian sponsors want a motley crew of Spanish/American/Khazak dopers in a race that prefers its winners (and dopers) to be homegrown?"

    Why would they want an American? To stimulate interest in their brand (and for their sponsors) in the American market obviously. Why do you think Slipstream got a ride?
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.
  • blazing_saddles
    blazing_saddles Posts: 22,725
    I'll tell youwhat says a lot.
    Having asked the question about the chances of various other contenders, both Italian and foreign, no one can be bothered to give it a second thought.
    No one has expressed an interest in the race parcours.
    Deltadawn and Micron have expressed an interest in having a great race.

    Iain has made the correct observation for having US squads and US products etc.

    Other than that, you would think there was only one team in the race.
    It would be interesting to know how many of the numerous Astana fans on this forum, have been supporting the team since Vino won the Vuelta, in 2006.
    I suspect very few indeed.
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • micron
    micron Posts: 1,843
    Iain I would like to be that Slipstream are there because of their 'clean' policy - but of course I am realistic enough to know that the Giro needs to try and attract a more international audience - I remember when for the Giro it was just all the Italian teams and some wild cards so you had a team like Linda McCartney getting to ride.
  • iainf72
    iainf72 Posts: 15,784
    I think with Slipstream it was a bit of both. RCS thought they might provide the interest for the American market but they're no where near as interesting (or good) as Levi.
    Fckin' Quintana … that creep can roll, man.

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