10 Mile TT Training
Comments
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if I were pushed I would say it's about 90% +/- 3% but there are lots of caveats and everyone's experience is different. And don't forget in a well paced time trial, heart rate will gradually rise through the effort, so we are talking averages here.Bronzie wrote:Is there a "normal" relationship (percentage) between HR@FTP and MHR?
that would be for a 10 miler, perhaps for a longer TT it might be slightly lower, but not by much.0 -
OK, so bearing Alex's provisos in mind:
My HR @ FTP (from ramp test) = 157bpm ==> 174 MHR (90%)
So why does Andrew think my MHR is miles out? StillConfused.com :?0 -
Hi there.
Sorry for the delay... been busy!
First up let me admit this: I'm kinda a perceived extertion guy - I've been through the heart rate phase and have dabbled with power meters, but basically I go on rpe. Some of the difficulty of using heart rate to set zones can be seen in this thread, and while power meters are a great indicator of workload I can't take one into the swimmiing pool with me, and I can't lug one round my running routes!
I do use a hrm though, but generally don't pay it any attention until after a ride or race.
Bronzie, the reason I thought your max heart rate was higher was that I thought about what 90-95% would mean to me (187-197bpm). It is inconceviable for me to even consider riding 10 miles at that pace... Not possible.
Alex? 90% That must be the first time I've disagreed with you - ever. Let's put the figures in Bronzie's context: If the ftp is set at 157 (90%), then according to Coggan's zones he should be doing level 6 intervals at heart rates greater than 120% of the ftp figure which would be 188bpm - ten beats above his 'maximum'. Level 7 efforts should be done even harder...
Personally I'd guess that my ftp is 80% of max. I did a sub maximal ramp test last week (see below), and to with 3 or 4 beats of 166bpm I'd say my power at ftp is about right on that chart. This is off a max of 208bpm.
Lab tests. I've done a few of these as I've got a clubmate who's a doctor of sports physiology at Stirling Uni. I've volunteered for a few of his trials and been variously injected, gas analysis, blood let, electrocuted, shouted at and taken through pretty much every level of pain that he can dish out over the years.
Lab 'threshold' results usually take either the 4mmol lactate level, or the deflection point on the lactate graph. Both of these tend to underestimate the threshold, especially in trained subjects who's ability to withstand the pain levels is higher.
The best way to find ftp is through a 25mTT. Not a training ride, but a real race where it matters, other people are paying attention to the results, and there's money at stake! You can also do it through a 10mTT, and factor the results down a bit (not sure what the exact fiddle factor is).
As for finding your max, that's pretty hard on a bike. I've done it in the lab, with someone screaming blue murder in my ear to keep going. The highest you've ever achieved in a race probably won't be enough - especially if it was just before you cracked. If you're about to lose it, it's hard to get your heart rate up.
If you're at the end of a short race (crit, or track?) you've been in control all the way through, worked hard, seen off some rivals, but not over done it. Coming into the sprint you've been saving yourself. The pace goes up, you're on the right wheel, confident. Now! Bang, you explode off that wheel with the absolute certainty that you are going to win, obliterate the other riders. You wind it right up, but there's a rider coming round you. Bang, you kick again - launching yourself into space. Where's the line? Yes! Arms pumping and you have won the sprint. That's when you see your max heart rate on a bike.
That's only happened to me once... Except I didn't win the sprint... Running heart rates are always higher for similar levels of exertion and it's easier to hit that max. The favoured technique involves a steep hill that takes 30 to 45 seconds to sprint up, half a dozen similarly minded friends, and a bucket. Round about the 4th or 5th full on hill rep, just before you fill that bucket you'll hit your max.
2x20s is a great session, and the graphs above look great Bronzie. Theres lots of scientific reasons why these are a good idea, but for me it comes down to this. The more time you spend in your target zone, the better your body will adapt (using whatever pysiological mechanism happens) to working in that zone. If you want to be a tester, then level 4 is your daddy. You can work on other zones to push up your power curve across the board, but you'll get the best results from where you concentrate.
The beauty of 2x20 is that it turns out that your body's adaptations are _nearly_ as good at the bottom of level 4 compared to the top. This means that you can work at a power level of say 90% of your ftp and still get a benefit. For me the killer point is that I can do this session, and then turn around and do something similar the next day.
If I was to do my 2x20 at my ftp level, then it would hurt, a lot. And I would not be able to do the same the next day. I usually do 2 or 3 sessions a day, 6 days a week (e.g. Morning run, lunchtime swim, evening ride). I have to plan my hard sessions (e.g. level 5/6 bike intervals, running track work, brick sessions) so as they aren't on consecutive days. 2x20s at 90% of ftp can be slotted in anywhere without any knock on effects - and that's why they are a work of genius. All time at the level counts.
Sorry if that's been a long ramble, feel free to pick me up on any mistakes!
Cheers, Andy0 -
I think you need to revisit the the Coggan levels. There are no heart rates specified for level 6 or level 7 training. Heart rate response is far too slow to be of any value for guiding such training.andrewgturnbull wrote:Alex? 90% That must be the first time I've disagreed with you - ever. Let's put the figures in Bronzie's context: If the ftp is set at 157 (90%), then according to Coggan's zones he should be doing level 6 intervals at heart rates greater than 120% of the ftp figure which would be 188bpm - ten beats above his 'maximum'. Level 7 efforts should be done even harder...
Indeed, even at level 5, the heart rate quoted in Coggan's levels is > 106% of your average heart rate at threshold. it is also noted that the heart rate response for level 5 workouts is still too slow to be of much value in guiding your effort.
therein lies one of the difficulties with using heart rate as a guide to intensity, especially for supra maximal work. Heart rate has a maximum value, whereas power does not.
while possible, that would be unusual in my books. 80% to 85% of maximum heart rate would be higher level endurance/Tempo work as far as I'm concerned.andrewgturnbull wrote:Personally I'd guess that my ftp is 80% of max.
I am a little dubious about identifying a threshold heart rate from a ramp test.andrewgturnbull wrote:I did a sub maximal ramp test last week (see below), and to with 3 or 4 beats of 166bpm I'd say my power at ftp is about right on that chart. This is off a max of 208bpm.
the first of these is a poor indicator as there is little to no evidence that a blood lactate concentration of 4 mmol/litre correlates with threshold (which is your own personal experience as well). Likewise, the so-called "deflection point" is of limited value.andrewgturnbull wrote:Lab 'threshold' results usually take either the 4mmol lactate level, or the deflection point on the lactate graph. Both of these tend to underestimate the threshold, especially in trained subjects who's ability to withstand the pain levels is higher.
Agreed, but of course the discussion at hand has been about heart rates rather than power. Nevertheless, for anyone interested, only just last night I posted an item on the subject of how to test for and/or estimate your FTP. See here for the post:andrewgturnbull wrote:The best way to find ftp is through a 25mTT. Not a training ride, but a real race where it matters, other people are paying attention to the results, and there's money at stake! You can also do it through a 10mTT, and factor the results down a bit (not sure what the exact fiddle factor is).
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com/2008/05/ ... -sins.html0 -
Hi Alex.
You are correct - I misread the levels, level 6 is 120% of power, nor hr. Sorry.
My own readings still stand though - and no I did not pick my heart rate at ftp from the ramp test - I included the chart just to show the relationship between my own power output and heart rates at that level.
I agree about lactate levels, which is the point I was trying to make, the lab tests I've done indicated a threshold level significantly below the point that I use - which was established the last time I did a 25m TT - which was about 18 months ago, but there was prize money at stake!
This whole discussion has been a good example of why not to use heart rate as a comparison with others!
Cheers, Andy
ps Racing tomorrow - leaving all monitors, meters and watches at home...0 -
Andrew / Alex - thanks for taking the time to try and explain some of the science to me - this is probably one of the most enlightening threads on this forum for some time.
Revisiting the original 2x20 thread, level 4 training is defined as follows from the TrainingPeaks web:
"Just below to just above TT effort, taking into account duration, current fitness, environmental conditions, etc. Essentially continuous sensation of moderate or even greater leg effort/fatigue. Continuous conversation difficult at best, due to depth/frequency of breathing. Effort sufficiently high that sustained exercise at this level is mentally very taxing - therefore typically performed in training as multiple 'repeats', 'modules', or 'blocks' of 10-30 min duration. Consecutive days of training at level 4 possible, but such workouts generally only performed when sufficiently rested/recovered from prior training so as to be able to maintain intensity."
Given that definition, I'm pretty happy that the level I'm riding my 2x20 sessions at is bang on the money, although it is noted that the HR levels I am using may be based on an inaccurately low value for my max HR.0 -
Jeez Bronzie that means you're not putting enough effort into your 2 x 20's then :shock:0
