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10 Mile TT Training

bradmanbradman Posts: 22
What training do you recommend for 10 mile TT training?
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  • bradman wrote:
    What training do you recommend for 10 mile TT training?

    Hi there.

    The short answer is Level 4 and level 5 intervals.

    e.g. 2 x 20mins at a little slower race pace and 6 x 3mins at a little faster than race pace.

    Well, that's what I do, as well as a lot of other, more general less specific riding - usually involving hills, hills and hills.

    Cheers, Andy
  • bradmanbradman Posts: 22
    When you say 'a little' how little? 5 beats per minute? 10 beats?
  • Best training for 10's is to ride them. Ride your / a clubs evening event every week on top of whatever else your doing is a good start. The adrenaline boost of riding with a number on your back is valuable.
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    Typically the 2x20's are ridden at 85-90% of max heart rate and the 6x3's at 90-95%
  • Bronzie wrote:
    Typically the 2x20's are ridden at 85-90% of max heart rate and the 6x3's at 90-95%

    No chance! That's far too high Bronzie!

    Brad - ride flat out for 20 minutes and measure your average heart rate over the last 10 minutes. That will be approx the level you want to race at. The 20 minute intervals will be about 5 to 10 beats lower than this, and the 3 minute intervals 10 beats higher.

    Don't fixate too much on the numbers though, it's always approximate when you're dealing with heart rates.

    Cheers, Andy
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    No chance! That's far too high Bronzie!
    Why "too high" - because 2x20 at 85-90% is not sustainable or because the training benefits are not as good as riding at slower pace?

    I took these figures from the 2x20 thread that ran a few months back:
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12555444

    That's what I ride my 2x20's at anyway (MHR 172 => 146-154), and although the sessions are not what I'd call fun, they do seem to do the trick. Typically I ride 10's at 90-95% MHR (154-163) as my target zone.
  • ut_och_cyklaut_och_cykla Posts: 1,594
    My 20 x 2 are also done at a pace i can just sustain for the duration of the 2 intervalls typically 85-90% of MHR. Shorter intervals I try to go even harder - but they are hard - and meant to be... :)
  • Bronzie wrote:
    No chance! That's far too high Bronzie!
    Why "too high" - because 2x20 at 85-90% is not sustainable or because the training benefits are not as good as riding at slower pace?

    I took these figures from the 2x20 thread that ran a few months back:
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12555444

    That's what I ride my 2x20's at anyway (MHR 172 => 146-154), and although the sessions are not what I'd call fun, they do seem to do the trick. Typically I ride 10's at 90-95% MHR (154-163) as my target zone.

    Hi there.

    If you can ride a 10 at 95% of your MHR I'd guess that you are measuring your MHR too low. How did you come up with the 172 figure, was it in a lab test?

    Cheers, Andy
  • Bronzie wrote:
    No chance! That's far too high Bronzie!
    Why "too high" - because 2x20 at 85-90% is not sustainable or because the training benefits are not as good as riding at slower pace?

    I took these figures from the 2x20 thread that ran a few months back:
    http://www.bikeradar.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12555444

    That's what I ride my 2x20's at anyway (MHR 172 => 146-154), and although the sessions are not what I'd call fun, they do seem to do the trick. Typically I ride 10's at 90-95% MHR (154-163) as my target zone.

    Hi there.

    If you can ride a 10 at 95% of your MHR I'd guess that you are measuring your MHR too low. How did you come up with the 172 figure, was it in a lab test?

    Cheers, Andy

    I was thinking this too.

    [/quote]Typically I ride 10's at 90-95% MHR (154-163) as my target zone

    Bronzie, is your 10 HR measured or target?
  • Are you guys comparing the same thing? It sounds like one is measuring relative to maximum heart rate, and the other relative to average heart rate for a time trial effort. they are quite different.
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    The 172 comes from my highest recorded heart rate during last season at various races (at least the ones I wore a HRM for). These included bunch races where I blew so I'm assuming that the max recorded HR during these races would be pretty close to my absolute maximum. I've also done a Kingcycle test (2006) and this pretty much confirmed the figure.

    I simply set the HRM zone for 10's at 90-95% so that I know if I'm riding too slow or too hard. I'm not a slave to it though and go on feel as well to know if there is anything more I can give at any particular point in the race. I'll post a HR graph from a 10 I did last week later (as long as you promise not to snigger :wink: ).
  • Can I be the first to say - get a power meter and get Coggan's book on power training.
  • I have used an HRM only retrospectively - I simply ride TT's as hard as I can manage. Pacing is done simply from experience and PE. For 10's I just go as hard as my lungs and legs will go, interestingly all the HR traces I have show them to be pretty consistent for most of last year at around 145 - 150 BPM average (which I calculate from similar experience as Bronzie) as around 90-92% MHR However, I have noticed that my TT HR has moved upwards, presumably with increased fitness. I also keep discovering new MHR's thanks to riding on the track! Hence I completely ignore my HRM during a race.
  • Hence I completely ignore my HRM during a race.
    that is a wise thing to do. Racing and training heart rates are often quite different. Besides, you should be concentrating on the race :)
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    Right, here's the HR graph from the 10 I did on 22nd April - started the recording 5 secs before the off and the graph drops off at 25:30 'cos that's the time I did (road bike with no tri bars rather than the TT bike)! :P

    Average HR for the recording including the 3 mins cool down at the end was 158 and the max 167 - the green horizontal bar is my target HR for 2x20's (ie 146-154) as I forgot to reset for 90-95% (154-163).

    I did actually record a 174 max during last season, so I may be a few bpm out with my max, but not much I think.

    2455515752_bf8777d9d6_o.jpg
  • Hence I completely ignore my HRM during a race.
    that is a wise thing to do. Racing and training heart rates are often quite different. Besides, you should be concentrating on the race :)

    Hi there.

    I agree, which is why I made no mention of heart rates in my first post!

    Cheers, Andy
  • Bronzie wrote:
    Right, here's the HR graph from the 10 I did on 22nd April -
    with what looks essentially like a flat heart rate curve, it is highly likely that your power steadily declined through the event. That would typically be sub optimal pacing. I would suggest there is an opportunity for you to ride faster for the same effort.

    Typically, heart rate should gradually rise throughout a well paced time trial effort. something like this:
    TempoWorkout.jpg
  • Hi Bronzie.

    Interesting graph. Could you see the monitor while you were racing, or did you have the display covered up?

    Cheers, Andy
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    That would typically be sub optimal pacing. I would suggest there is an opportunity for you to ride faster for the same effort.
    I agree I probably started too fast and tried to hang on. Certainly the last couple of miles were a real effort. Haven't done many TT's in the last 2 seasons (more bunch racing) so I'm probably a bit rusty on pacing technique.

    I really am tempted to get a Powertap for more useful feedback - maybe if I'm a good boy all year, Santa will look favourably on me! :wink:
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    Interesting graph. Could you see the monitor while you were racing, or did you have the display covered up?
    Yes, but I don't really pay much attention to it during the ride, just the odd glance - I did have the alarm set so I knew I was above my 85-90% 2x20 training target zone for the whole duration.

    Next outing, I'll set the correct limits (90-95%) and try to stick to it a bit more rigidly perhaps. Problem was, as it was just a club 10, I kept catching people or had people to chase the whole time, so I probably got carried away. :oops:
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    For reference, here's a HR graph from a 2x20 session I did on Tuesday (well, it was raining :) ) - 15 mins gradually increasing resistance as warmup, 20 mins constant effort, 5 mins spin, 20 mins constant effort, 5 mins cool down.

    The constant efforts are based on keeping the rear wheel speed / cadence constant through the session. You can see how my HR rises towards the end of each 20 min block.

    2455645919_48e8d23877_o.jpg
  • andrewgturnbullandrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    Yup - all good!

    We disagree about your real MHR, that's all. I guess this is why MHR isn't really a very good marker for, well anything.

    Heart rate at functional threshold is far more useful!

    Cheers, Andy
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    We disagree about your real MHR, that's all
    Why? :?

    Because you don't think it's possible to ride a 10 mile flat TT in 25mins at 90-95% of MHR?

    What do you think my true MHR is more likely to be given the recordings above?
    Heart rate at functional threshold is far more useful!
    Is the only way to arrive at this figure to have a lab test (Kingcyle or similar) done (presuming you don't have access to a powermeter)?

    Is there a "normal" relationship (percentage) between [email protected] and MHR?

    FWIW when I had the ramp test done in 2006 my FTP was given as 270W @ 157bpm and this was based on lactate readings taken from my earlobe during the test.

    Sorry for all the questions and the thread hijack, but you've certainly raised my curiousity with this one Andrew!
  • SteveR_100MilersSteveR_100Milers Posts: 5,987
    Yup - all good!

    We disagree about your real MHR, that's all. I guess this is why MHR isn't really a very good marker for, well anything.

    Heart rate at functional threshold is far more useful!

    Cheers, Andy

    As per Friel et al. And this is where Mike W will jump in and rightly point out that whether you use power or HR, both are dependant on a field test top establish them which involves riding " as fast as you can ride at 10TT pace" i.e. it all comes down to PE, wich varies from hour to hour let alone between racing and training.

    I rode the white horse on sunday with no HRM, (it was broken which annoyed me to an irrational level) and you know what I felt strangely liberated, and my time was OK as well.
  • andrewgturnbullandrewgturnbull Posts: 3,861
    Bronzie wrote:
    We disagree about your real MHR, that's all
    Why? :?

    Because you don't think it's possible to ride a 10 mile flat TT in 25mins at 90-95% of MHR?

    What do you think my true MHR is more likely to be given the recordings above?
    Heart rate at functional threshold is far more useful!
    Is the only way to arrive at this figure to have a lab test (Kingcyle or similar) done (presuming you don't have access to a powermeter)?

    Is there a "normal" relationship (percentage) between [email protected] and MHR?

    FWIW when I had the ramp test done in 2006 my FTP was given as 270W @ 157bpm and this was based on lactate readings taken from my earlobe during the test.

    Sorry for all the questions and the thread hijack, but you've certainly raised my curiousity with this one Andrew!

    Hang on Bronzie - I'll get back to you later. (after work/chaingang).

    Cheers, Andy
  • Mike WillcoxMike Willcox Posts: 1,770
    Bronzie wrote:
    Interesting graph. Could you see the monitor while you were racing, or did you have the display covered up?
    Yes, but I don't really pay much attention to it during the ride, just the odd glance - I did have the alarm set so I knew I was above my 85-90% 2x20 training target zone for the whole duration.

    Next outing, I'll set the correct limits (90-95%) and try to stick to it a bit more rigidly perhaps. Problem was, as it was just a club 10, I kept catching people or had people to chase the whole time, so I probably got carried away. :oops:


    Bronzie did you ride your 2 x 20 the day before the club 10TT? Because if you did then unless you are really race fit (probably too early in the season) you would have taken the edge off your race performance.

    If you want to judge your pacing right then IMO it helps to train at intervals of 5/6/7/8 minutes duration so that at the end of the day you can manage maybe only 3 or 4 sets. Of course this effort is too much to sustain for a 10 mile TT but when you race you will adjust accordingly. At the same time the last 3 miles or so will seem like the last 5/6 minutes of an interval session if you judge it right.

    The shorter intervals will build your speed up too. I'm not a great believer in midweek 10's as they impinge on quality training/recovery sessions and affect the weekend race performance. Ride them as training only and don't worry about performance.

    Heart Rate Monitors cause anxiety and should be banned. :D
  • BronzieBronzie Posts: 4,927
    Bronzie did you ride your 2 x 20 the day before the club 10TT?
    No - the 10 (1st graph) was Tue 22/4, the 2x20 (2nd graph) was Tue 29/4 - I would have ridden the 10 but it was very wet and they tend not to bother running it if only a few turn up. My legs are generally too heavy after a 2x20 session to attempt a TT the following day (at least to do it any justice).
    Ride them as training only and don't worry about performance.
    I do - everything I do is training at the minute :wink: - my "goals" for the season are to get some results at the local Friday night track league and to do as good a time as possible in the Marmotte. Two very different things and not easy to balance as OldWelshMan will agree.
    Heart Rate Monitors cause anxiety and should be banned. :D
    I agree to an extent but they do have their place I think. I'm not anxious to be told that all the HR zones I've set myself are related to a false MHR, just a bit suprised and confused.

    Thanks for the other feedback regarding the short intervals - I may well try them although I probably won't do so many more TT's for a while as I really prefer bunch racing which starts next Tuesday evening so clashing with the evening 10s.
  • mackdaddymackdaddy Posts: 310
    Heart Rate Monitors cause anxiety and should be banned. :D

    Just to add a bit to this I always use my HRM on a TT. I have found over the last year that if my HR goes above 164 for any length of time I get a terrible stitch which I can't get rid of. I have tried everything else to control it but this is the only thing that has an impact.

    So for me, banning HRs would cause terrible pain!
  • jongingejonginge Posts: 5,945
    mackdaddy wrote:
    So for me, banning HRs would cause terrible pain!

    Isn't that what TTs are for? I always used to get a stitch when TTing if I'd eaten too close to the event (although that might have been coincidence). I felt it went with the territory
    FCN 2-4 "Shut up legs", Jens Voigt
    Planet-x Scott
    Rides
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