British cycling - Organized doping.

campagchris

We are a small nation with great facilities so can attract riders to the velodromes.So they can train together and competition can be fierce.Other bigger nations have further to travel,and less competition because of that.G.B.team have set their stall out to win things and in my opinion has been down to hard graft,great coaches,and good funding.
No wonder cycling doesn't get the recognition it deserves when on cycling forums the fingers are pointing.
Well done team G.B.

LangerDan

Had to laugh today during the Eurosport interview with David Brailsford when he spoke about "blooding the younger riders".

There must be a better expresion!

andy_wrx

If someone's doping, just look at the build of Vicky Pendleton cf. those Chinese girls in the Sprint, or the thighs on the German who was third in the Keirin, or the shoulders on some of the other 'girls'...
They might just do a lot of time in the weights room, I guess...

Chris Hoy is a big guy, but then so are his parents, I can beleive he's genetically big...

oldwelshman

fearby wrote:

I remember a few years ago when Woodward took over as England rugby coach he had unlimited money from O2 at his disposal and he said himself that was why they went on to win the Rugby world championship - proper coaching resources.

PS I am not in any way interested in rugby so don't ask me anything about it.

What a load of tosh.
Do you really think throwing money at 15 players makes them a winning team? If so what happened this year in the 6 nations?

We are just very lucky that we have some extremely talented and natural athletes in cycling (why do you think Romero and Reade were targeted?) and when you then have the correct infrastructure to train and coach them, thats the icing on the cake and can make the small differences required to be the top. Orbree did it more or less alone.
You cannot possibly attribute all the success to coaches and money.
Once you have these people successful that leads to more youngsters enterring the sport to emulate their heroes and it is not rocket science to predict that the more people participating in a sport, the more success you will get.
There are now many good youngsters coming through in cycling due to the last few years good work by the current set up, and lets not forget the influence and support of the "other " coaches who turn out regularly encouraging and training the future stars week in week out, kids aged 8 and upwards to about 13, by which time they get spotted and passed to more specialised coaches.

As for mone poster above stating not all pro riders have talent, really?
Of course they have talent and natural ability abundance otherwise they would not be the elite of their sport.

drenkrom

If Rob Hayles was a member of Astana and Wiggins was on the same team, what would you all be thinking?

nickwill

drenkrom wrote:

If Rob Hayles was a member of Astana and Wiggins was on the same team, what would you all be thinking?

But they arent! :roll:

Kléber

Track cycling is one where money does buy performance. Like anything, just spending the money isn't enough, you need to target the spending and so on.

But to start with, you need the track. Not many countries actually have good velodromes. You need quality indoor tracks. The UK is lucky to have Manchester and Cardiff, and London soon too. Compare this to the lack of decent tracks in Spain, Italy, France, Belgium and Germany. They all have tracks, but are either outdoor or have tight bankings, not ideal for regular training.

Track cycling is a very controlled environment. You can measure the riders, their power and more, and it's not subject to crosswinds or other stochastic factors. The more you measure, the more you understand. You can also spend money on technology, wind tunnel testing. And of course, spending money on sports science and training practices helps.

You need the raw materials to start with, but clearly many Spanish and Italian riders have similar talent. So it takes organisation, which requires money. This is why the East Germans, Russians and Ukrainians were so good, and why in more recent time, the Aussies were so good. The British system copies a lot of this, using state-sponsored riders and coaches.

Langenberg

Kléber wrote:

Compare this to the lack of decent tracks in Spain, Italy, France, Belgium and Germany.

France actually have Grenoble and Bordeaux as national centres if I am not mistaken.

Spain, Belgium and Italy have never been track nations as real money can be made on the road (as opposed to the 'new' track nations).

Langenberg

The following would interest me: Why do the nations which dominate track cycling seem to change over time? Up to the mid/late nineties it was mainly Germany and France.

Then Australia became the force to be reckoned with and now Britain. On the assumption that success has to do with decent structures of a sport, why have all of these nations suddenly declined? You would have assumed that proven support structures stay in place?

Monty Dog

It's acknowledged that funding for the French track team has dwindled significantly - and the results too. The Australians have suffered from politics, in-fighting and alleged drug-taking of riders. I don't think the GB success has been down to one thing, but doing lots of things very well and gradually improving things over the last 10 years. Equally, I think the work ethic and personalities of the riders and management has created a very harmonious, high-performance environment, and now that it's shown to produce results, who's going to argue against it? I remember the howls of derision from much of the cycling establishment when the WCPP was launched, saying it was a waste of money and how it should be invested in real cycling. Ironically, now that the investment is starting to pay dividends, it's now likely that GB are going to be a future force on the road with the number of quality endurance riders coming through.

iainf72

Monty Dog wrote:

Ironically, now that the investment is starting to pay dividends, it's now likely that GB are going to be a future force on the road with the number of quality endurance riders coming through.

Who are you refering to?

I can't think of anyone who seems like they'll be top tier in the next few years?

ddraver

oldwelshman wrote:

fearby wrote:

I remember a few years ago when Woodward took over as England rugby coach he had unlimited money from O2 at his disposal and he said himself that was why they went on to win the Rugby world championship - proper coaching resources.

PS I am not in any way interested in rugby so don't ask me anything about it.

What a load of tosh.
Do you really think throwing money at 15 players makes them a winning team? If so what happened this year in the 6 nations?

We are just very lucky that we have some extremely talented and natural athletes in cycling (why do you think Romero and Reade were targeted?) and when you then have the correct infrastructure to train and coach them, thats the icing on the cake and can make the small differences required to be the top. Orbree did it more or less alone.
You cannot possibly attribute all the success to coaches and money.
Once you have these people successful that leads to more youngsters enterring the sport to emulate their heroes and it is not rocket science to predict that the more people participating in a sport, the more success you will get.
There are now many good youngsters coming through in cycling due to the last few years good work by the current set up, and lets not forget the influence and support of the "other " coaches who turn out regularly encouraging and training the future stars week in week out, kids aged 8 and upwards to about 13, by which time they get spotted and passed to more specialised coaches.

As for mone poster above stating not all pro riders have talent, really?
Of course they have talent and natural ability abundance otherwise they would not be the elite of their sport.

is it cos he said it about England Rugby?! :P

this time round - i don't think one should estimate the significance of a home crowd/home venue as well.

I can't think of another sport in UK where they have such a comprihensive team based around one particular sport either, in face the last one i can think of is the england rugby team under woodward actually (and i think Gatland has made significant inroads into that with the WRFU whereas the RFU have torn it down!)

Bronzie

iainf72 wrote:

Who are you refering to?

I can't think of anyone who seems like they'll be top tier in the next few years?

Mark Cavendish comes immediately to mind

iainf72

Bronzie wrote:

iainf72 wrote:

Who are you refering to?

I can't think of anyone who seems like they'll be top tier in the next few years?

Mark Cavendish comes immediately to mind

He's good but not that good - Sure, I won't deny he's fast, but has he performed in big races against the big boys yet? Nope. There have been a few promising sprinters who've had stellar first seasons and then struggled.

I guess we'll have to see what he does in the Giro.

GroupOfOne MkII

I think Iain's right. While Cavendish (and maybe in a couple of years Bellis too) may be able to clock up the stage wins and semi-Classics (possibly even Classics like G-W) have we really got anyone who looks like they could be a Grand Tour contender (or even a week long tour contender)?

When someone says top tier to me, I automatically think of stage race winners or the likes of Bettini et al who can compete year round for the World Cup.

While I think the track is excellent for developing sprinters and TTers (prologue specialists in particular) have any GT winners (or contenders) come from a track racing background?

Bronzie

Still, UK talent comes from a very small pond. How many UK kids race bikes - Jesus, how many UK kids even ride bikes these days?

When all is said and done, Grand Tour winners are a very rare breed and it comes down to a numbers game - the more butts on saddles, the more chances you are likely to get. Nicole Cooke would be in contention if she'd be born male.

Go to Flanders to watch the Ronde and see the childrens race before the womens and mens races and that is what we are up against. Its in the blood in the cycling heartlands. How many pros are the children of former pros?

As for Cav, he's still pretty young. Petacchi won zilch before he turned 25 or so didn't he?

Matchstick Man

iainf72 wrote:

Monty Dog wrote:

Ironically, now that the investment is starting to pay dividends, it's now likely that GB are going to be a future force on the road with the number of quality endurance riders coming through.

Who are you refering to?

I can't think of anyone who seems like they'll be top tier in the next few years?

Geraint Thomas - 21/22 years old with a Premier Calendar win to his name and a junior Paris-Roubaix win to his credit. Obviously can ride over 40mph for "about" 4 mins or less so would be good on the road. Oh wait, didn't he ride the Tour and finish it last year? As part of Robbie Hunter's support squad?
Johhny Bellis - trackie who rode the U23 Worlds RR last year at the last minute as a replacement and took bronze in a mad bunch sprint and now has already been to a CSC training camp since then and has a stagiare contract lined up with CSC this autumn. 3 time European Track Champion
Mark Cavendish - World CHampion at madison twice, first time as a 19yr old in 2005. Won 11 races in first season, a neo-pro record
Steve Cummings - another team pursuiter who has been on Discovery Channel roster as a pro
Ed Clancy - World Pursuit Champion, rides for Landbouwkrediet-Tönissteiner. Won stage of Tour of Berlin in 2005
Steven Burke - competed in Manchester, rides for Landbouwkrediet-Tönissteiner
Ian Stannard - riding the 3 days of De Panne with Tonissteiner on the same team as Tom Steels. Like Cavendish had a stagaire contract with T-Mobile as was a couple of years back.

and they keep coming. Ok, not everyone will win big but it's not a bad roll call when you think that all the above names (bar Cummings) are still only U23 riders........all came through the BC/track set-up and they have others based over in Italy racing the road there as well ready to take their place.
This reminds me of the "Foreign Legion" back in the late 70's early 80's with Graham Jones, John Herety, Robert Millar, Sean Yates,Paul Sherwen etc. Talented riders who got on pro teams and paved the way for other English riders to follow in their footsteps

Matchstick Man

Geraint Thomas:
2006:
1st, Overall Classification, Fleche du Sud
1st, Points Classification, Fleche du Sud
1st, Under-21 Classification, Fleche du Sud
1st, Stage 2, Fleche du Sud
2nd, Stage 3B, Fleche du Sud
3rd, British Road Race Championships
3rd, Overall Mountains Classification, Giro d'Italia (Baby Giro)

2004:
1st, Scratch Race, Junior World Championships, Los Angeles

Youngest rider at TdeF in 2007 :shock:

oldwelshman

What a negative bunch some of you bunch really are, give credit where credit is due.
As monty said we have the facilities for track, some good athletes and good backroom with proper funding, all of these together give the results we have seen.
Unfortunatley due to the crap roads we have, limited races and difficulty in running races road racing is much harder to excell at in the UK.
Lets be honest, watching the track events is far more exciting than watching 4 hours on tv of a road race with a sprint at the end!! This should make it more marketable for TV and advertising so I am a bit surprised there are not more track events.
The only chance we have for road is the way we are going, nurturing the riders on the track and then ship them off to Italy in feeder teams to ride on the contenant.
We are never going to get a continental standard of raod race in the UK so riding in Europe is the only answer.
Whoever cannot see the progress of the new younger riders coming through must really be blind and to say Cavendish is not that good is unbelievable. Did he not win many races last year in first full season as pro? Did he beat Robbie McKewans record?
He may have a bit of an atitude but to be one of the best you really need that type of nature
You only also have to look at the performances of Geraint Thomas on the track and road, last year and this, also Johnny Bellis in the wordls last year, and others mentioned above.
Maybe some of you lot want them to be losers so they can win the BBC sports personality of the year contest?
How can we expect good press coverage for these up and coming guys with such negative posts?
They need encouragement and support not a load of bollox spoken.
There we go, I need to go and cool off for lunch now

iainf72

oldwelshman wrote:

Lets be honest, watching the track events is far more exciting than watching 4 hours on tv of a road race with a sprint at the end!! This should make it more marketable for TV and advertising so I am a bit surprised there are not more track events.

Personally, I'd rather watch a TT from the Vuelta on a dead straight piece of road through the desert than watch track cycling. :P

Compare the UCI registered track events year and year and you'll notice a decline in the numbers taking place. Well, last time I did it the numbers reduced by about 20% over a few years.

GroupOfOne MkII

iainf72 wrote:

oldwelshman wrote:

Lets be honest, watching the track events is far more exciting than watching 4 hours on tv of a road race with a sprint at the end!! This should make it more marketable for TV and advertising so I am a bit surprised there are not more track events.

Personally, I'd rather watch a TT from the Vuelta on a dead straight piece of road through the desert than watch track cycling. :P

Maybe not a Vuelta TT, but I'd also far rather watch road cycling than track cycling, and this is coming from someone who is a big track cycling fan!

oldwelshman

I do road and track, but watch a live road race? I would rather watch paint dry
Watch a TT live full coverage? I would rather look at a fish tank !!
Road cycling just is not exciting to watch unless you fuly understand it.
Take away team radios and it may get a bit exciting.
What is th epoint of watching a stage to see it look like a club run, then when the manager says close the break down, watch a fast run in to inevitably catch the breakways ? Bloody boring
What next watching turbo training on TV?

Salsiccia

At risk of being controversial, is it possible to like, and see merits in both? I mean, I admire Chris Hoy because of how good he is at what he does, and I admire Paolo Bettini for being good at what he does. That is OK, isn't it?

oldwelshman

No one has said they dont admire both?
I admire all of them I was just making the point that IMO road racing is not a vry good tc spectacle, I admire all cyclist, road, track, mtb liesure etc.
The original post was more to do with the ridicilous claim about organised doping by british cycling and it went from there to claiming we have no really talented road cyclists so guess the post has veered off course

oldwelshman

No one has said they dont admire both?
I admire all of them I was just making the point that IMO road racing is not a vry good tc spectacle, I admire all cyclist, road, track, mtb liesure etc.
The original post was more to do with the ridicilous claim about organised doping by british cycling and it went from there to claiming we have no really talented road cyclists so guess the post has veered off course

Salsiccia

Just a little...

dave_1

GroupOfOne MkII wrote:

have we really got anyone who looks like they could be a Grand Tour contender (or even a week long tour contender)?
?

true we don't have any Grand Tour contenders..we had one Scottish guy who knew how to win them and wanted to help others......but Peter Keen fired him. We kept Chris on though.. PK was spoiled for choice obviously

GroupOfOne MkII

Yeah seem to remember that Scottish guy was quite good Dave. Does make you wonder what sort of impact he'd have had if he'd been given a longer run at the job.

andyp

Rose tinted specs? Millar wasn't exactly renowed for his people skills was he? (He wasn't an expert in GT winning either - in fact the opposite!)

dave_1

andyp wrote:

Rose tinted specs? Millar wasn't exactly renowed for his people skills was he? (He wasn't an expert in GT winning either - in fact the opposite!)

He should have been in the background looking at riders...not driving behind the wheel of a car. Herety came down on Millar's side in Moore's book. Millar's people skills seemed good when I met him...he gave blunt very helpful advice-which I did not fully listen to 20 years back

if you include Recio and delgado motorpacing on a 85 vuelta stage and Millar not...then yes, Millar did not know how to win grand tours.