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British cycling - Organized doping.

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  • TheHogTheHog Posts: 27
    "UK track program have got a very competent medical program, even if it is unofficial, and outsourced to some rogue pharmacologists and doctors."
  • vermootenvermooten Posts: 2,697
    They've gone from no-hopers (albeit with occasional superstars like Boardman and Obree) to the best in the world across almost all disciplines within a generation. Cycle sport has gone from nowhere on the public radar to our best hopes of a whole load of medals at the Olympics. UK funding systems are based entirely around Olympic and Worlds medals, so the funding of the whole sport of cycling in the UK is dependent on those performances on the track. Seems like a recipe for PED-use.
    I have wondered how British track riders got so good so quickly. I hope this is just idle censored -stirring and nothing more.
    You just have to ride like you never have to breathe again.

    Manchester Wheelers
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    And because someone posted it on a forum, it must be true? Before I could take it seriously, I'd need a few things:
    To know who that person is
    How he knows
    What proof there is for it.

    My theory is this (and now I've posted it, I expect people to take it seriously... :wink: ): A LOT of money has gone into the British Track program. That is why they are now cleaning up; there's always been talented athletes around, but now they have the time and resources to get the maximum out of them through improved training techniques, scientific measurements of effort and rest periods, the very best equipment.

    The problem is, anytime anyone looks good, the paranoia and innuendo mean that people start pointing the finger vis a vis they must be doping (people are now whispering about Fabian Cancellara). But in reality, Chris Hoy has always been one of the best short-distance track riders since he appeared on the scene way back; Victoria Pendleton was special from an early age; Rebecca Romero was already a world-class athlete before she turned to cycling; and so on.

    I'm not completely naive to think that there is no way British cyclists could be doing stuff; but for this success to come through doping would mean an illegal medical program of East German proportions, and I just can't see it, and there is no proof.
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • vermootenvermooten Posts: 2,697
    Success on the track could come from the money that's been pumped in and a team-sanctioned progarmme. Let's see what happens eh.
    You just have to ride like you never have to breathe again.

    Manchester Wheelers
  • OffTheBackAdamOffTheBackAdam Posts: 1,869
    Complete load of censored , we've always had a slew of good trackies, look at our record in the pursuit, we had World Champions in the 60's (Porter, Burton just off the top of my head) 70's (Doyle or was he the 80's?)) 80's (Yates, Sturgess) 90's (O'Bree, Boardman).
    We've had some good 6-day riders, but they were essentially roadies.
    What we lacked before was a good infrastructure, until Manchester opened, the only covered track was the antique ex-Wembley 6-day one at Calshott, outdoors, the only good boards were to be found at Saffron Lane, the rest were hang overs from times long gone.
    The financial support wasn't there either, so once good, tallented riders hit adulthood, it was either work and money but no time to train properly or dole, plenty of training time but no money. For those good & lucky enough to land a continental pro contract, there'd be little incentive for their teams to release them to train for the track, let alone race.
    Looking at the disciplines in track racing, you've got the short events like Sprint, Kilo, Team Sprint & Kierin, being good at one should lend you the ability to shine at all four.
    The Pursuit & Team Pursuit, again, areas where we've always had good riders.
    The distance events like Points & Maddison just need good roadies and the necessary training time & facilities.
    With women's racing, no big surprises there, there's few enough female athletes anyway, so it only needs a few with some serious tallent to get noticed.
    Our trackies haven't appeared overnight, there's no "Chinese Swimmers" story here, they've been there for many years getting better & better.
    Remember that you are an Englishman and thus have won first prize in the lottery of life.
  • What a great method to getting a forum topic locked.
  • vermootenvermooten Posts: 2,697
    Sure there have always been trackies - good ones - but has GB always had this almost-monopoly of gold in the world championships? I ask as one who doesn't know, and Wikipedia only goes back to 2007...
    You just have to ride like you never have to breathe again.

    Manchester Wheelers
  • colintcolint Posts: 1,707
    Is it sudden success ? I think it's more like a good program thats been progressin for several years, not like eg the chinese who come from nowhere to wining every medal in swimming.

    you never know i suppose, but I'd be surprised if theres an organised doping regime
    Planet X N2A
    Trek Cobia 29er
  • Rob SallnowRob Sallnow Posts: 6,279
    vermooten wrote:
    Sure there have always been trackies - good ones - but has GB always had this almost-monopoly of gold in the world championships? .

    No we haven't....we do have a history of top pursuiters and a bit of sucess with Hoy, Queally etc in sprint events bought a bit of sucess over the fast few years that has then brought lottery funding which has brought more success.

    Our current 'monopoly' is based around having four great talents Pendleton, Hoy, Wiggins and Romero.....and it's the nature of Pendleton and Hoy's events that are boosting the medal totals. Having one great sprinter can get you three world titles in one year (previously four)....we're blessed with one of each gender. :D
    I'd rather walk than use Shimano
  • MoomaloidMoomaloid Posts: 2,040
    Exactly Rob! When u look at it, its a core group of individuals that are winning multi events. It does make you laugh doesn't how someone has to put a downer on the excellent work that Brailsford, Sutton and their team have put in over the years. It not like professional road teams where everything is kept under wraps, the track programme seems open enough for anyone to probe.

    Also, i remember a few years back when the awesome Australian team rinsed nearly every event, but again their academy of sports programme was the best int he world. Nobody was talking doping then...
  • vbcvbc Posts: 1,104
    The Hog is obsessed. All his posts concern doping, get a life!
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Given the fantastic results from our track team based and the only thing that people on a cycling forum can comment on it based on pure allegation - and some people wonder why cycling receives such poor press - well, if cycling fans can't even celebrate their own success, then why should anybody else? Unlike pro-team cyclists, these guys don't spend weeks away from their team, locked up in hotel rooms and have secret meetings with their own doctors - but spend day after day training together - a difficult environment to operate a clandestine PED programme.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
  • tonywartonywar Posts: 34
    Well if that ability just comes out of a bottle, can I have some please.
  • TheHogTheHog Posts: 27
    "the president of the Italian Federation even asked Brailsford, outright, what drugs his athletes were using."

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/t457001.html
  • TheHogTheHog Posts: 27
    vbc wrote:
    The Hog is obsessed. All his posts concern doping, get a life!

    :lol: You have almost 100 x as many posts as I do.
  • TheHogTheHog Posts: 27
    Salsiccia wrote:
    But in reality, Chris Hoy has always been one of the best short-distance track riders since he appeared on the scene way back; Victoria Pendleton was special from an early age; Rebecca Romero was already a world-class athlete before she turned to cycling; and so on.

    Most pro riders are pretty talented, but they can't all win gold medals. Unless they are british of course.
  • DaveyLDaveyL Posts: 5,167
    TheHog wrote:
    "the president of the Italian Federation even asked Brailsford, outright, what drugs his athletes were using."

    http://www.cyclingforums.com/t457001.html

    Yes, and various Italian riders asked Obree what he used for the hour record. Does that mean Obree doped now? Where's that ROTFL icon?
    Le Blaireau (1)
  • z000mz000m Posts: 544
    well at least theyre organised.
    if i was a tester i would be onto that shaneze reade shes just too big
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    TheHog wrote:
    Salsiccia wrote:
    But in reality, Chris Hoy has always been one of the best short-distance track riders since he appeared on the scene way back; Victoria Pendleton was special from an early age; Rebecca Romero was already a world-class athlete before she turned to cycling; and so on.

    Most pro riders are pretty talented, but they can't all win gold medals. Unless they are british of course.

    But not all pro riders have talent AND the support of the best coaches and training conditions, do they? It is widely acknowledged that Team GB have by far the best support team and financial backing. When Australia was winning most of the track medals, could that only have come about because of a PED program? No, it was because they had very talented athletes backed up by the best support set-up and facilities at the time.

    As requested earlier, please provide some proof of a PED program other than some tittle-tattle on another forum. If we get a raft of positive tests or some big-time confessions I will personally apologise to you, but until then I believe Team GB success is down to physical and psychological preparation rather than pharmaceutical.
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 25,497
    Surely the main reason (aside from the most money and the best facilities and coaches) is that all of GB's best talent goes into the track program. Elsewhere the best talent goes on the road.

    The Italians, for example, didn't have a pursuiter in Manchester. But surely most of Pettachi's lead out train have the talent for it. How many times have they, or Bennati or Pozzato been on a track - hardly, if ever. It's the same in almost every other country - even the Aussies seem to be relying on the old hands.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • nickwillnickwill Posts: 2,735
    I think that the premise of the OP is a disgrace.
    Why can't people just be glad when a British sports team does well. They are without doubt the best prepared team on the track, and have a nucleus of four very talented and motivated riders in Pendleton, Hoy, Wiggins and Romero, with some other very impressive riders as well.
  • claudbclaudb Posts: 212
    I'm sick of the sniping too.
    Organised Doping ?? - No !!
    Organised on every other front ?? - Yes !!
    e.g. selection of the best riders (even stealing from other sports)/clinical attention to detail everywhere as regards physical condition, schedules, goals, equipment, phsycology/top flight training facilites/best coaches/clarity of objectives and incentive to the young ones coming through for the future.
    All the above and more create the success and the success breeds more success. For me that's where they really are now - on a well-deserved roll thanks to having the best people funded sufficiently to let them do the job they need to do.
  • vermootenvermooten Posts: 2,697
    yes but you gotta wonder...

    heh heh heh heh heh
    You just have to ride like you never have to breathe again.

    Manchester Wheelers
  • SalsicciaSalsiccia Posts: 405
    vermooten wrote:
    yes but you gotta wonder...

    heh heh heh heh heh

    Any theories on who might have been working with Lee Harvey Oswald? :wink:
    I was only joking when I said
    by rights you should be bludgeoned in your bed
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    British cycling are fantastically organised. They have the money to perfect and tweak all aspects of the riders performance. Look at the bikes we use - custom for the team. Most of the other teams just ride 'normal' track bikes. And did you hear Hoy hinting that there is more to come ? I wonder if they have kept some things back for the Olympics.

    I dont believe there has ever been any rumours about any of the back room team behind the cyclists. We're clean as any team can be - if anyone was to be found using something - you can bet the team are not behind it.
  • ride_wheneverride_whenever Posts: 13,279
    I was told by an Olympic coach (albeit for rowing) that to win Olympic gold, you need to find someone who has something exceptional about them, be it strength, stamina, technique whatever is relevant, and the coach them the rest. With proper backing and a bit of luck finding exceptional people then you can do just about anything.
  • fearbyfearby Posts: 245
    I remember a few years ago when Woodward took over as England rugby coach he had unlimited money from O2 at his disposal and he said himself that was why they went on to win the Rugby world championship - proper coaching resources.

    PS I am not in any way interested in rugby so don't ask me anything about it.
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    fearby wrote:
    I remember a few years ago when Woodward took over as England rugby coach he had unlimited money from O2 at his disposal and he said himself that was why they went on to win the Rugby world championship - proper coaching resources.

    PS I am not in any way interested in rugby so don't ask me anything about it.


    Bad example. Have you seen the size of that team? and of Martin Johnson's HGHtastic forehead. I'd waaay soooner point the finger at Woodward's crew than Brailsford's.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • timoid.timoid. Posts: 3,133
    fearby wrote:
    I remember a few years ago when Woodward took over as England rugby coach he had unlimited money from O2 at his disposal and he said himself that was why they went on to win the Rugby world championship - proper coaching resources.

    PS I am not in any way interested in rugby so don't ask me anything about it.


    Bad example. Have you seen the size of that team? and of Martin Johnson's HGHtastic forehead? I'd waaay soooner point the finger at Woodward's crew than Brailsford's.
    It's a little like wrestling a gorilla. You don't quit when you're tired. You quit when the gorilla is tired.
  • Monty DogMonty Dog Posts: 20,614
    Interesting comments from Romero is today's Sunday Times, comparing the attitude between that of rowing and cycling as being like between school and university and that in the WC cycling set-up, athletes are treated as individuals not just as members of team following the same rigorous training regime.
    Make mine an Italian, with Campagnolo on the side..
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