2x20

Bronzie

Mike Willcox wrote:

IMO doing the endurance rides are much more beneficial (building a solid aerobic base 2000 miles) so that when it's time for the intervals later I'll be developing much more power than if I was focusing on doing the intervals now.

But surely if you are planning to race early season (March), you need to be doing some interval work now (6-8 weeks beforehand)?

Mike Willcox

Bronzie wrote:

But surely if you are planning to race early season (March), you need to be doing some interval work now (6-8 weeks beforehand)?

Of course but IMO Ideally you would have started your endurance training early enough to have built an aerobic base already. It depends on where you're coming from really. I see this type of training as a short cut built on sand. Others swear that it's all that counts. Crack on and do what you believe in.

Bronzie

Mike Willcox wrote:

I see this type of training as a short cut built on sand.

Assuming:
- you have a decent aerobic base from long steady rides over the winter
- you are planning to ride your first events in early/late March (mix of road race & TTs)
- your riding now is not solely intervals on the turbo, but a mix of turbo, fast-pace road rides and slower endurance rides
..............are you saying the 2x20min turbo intervals are a waste of time and if so, what would you recommend in their place?

Mike Willcox

Bronzie wrote:

Mike Willcox wrote:

I see this type of training as a short cut built on sand.

Assuming:
- you have a decent aerobic base from long steady rides over the winter
- you are planning to ride your first events in early/late March (mix of road race & TTs)
- your riding now is not solely intervals on the turbo, but a mix of turbo, fast-pace road rides and slower endurance rides
..............are you saying the 2x20min turbo intervals are a waste of time and if so, what would you recommend in their place?

I'm not saying that 2 x 20 are a waste of time. There are riders who train this way and who are national champions but and it's a big BUT they have also developed a solid aerobic base from doing endurance rides.

For me 2 x 20 on a turbo are the surest way to kill off all my motivation, even for living.

Personally I would do tempo training and long intervals on the road and only use the turbo for anaerobic intervals and/or easy gentle recovery rides.

What is the extent of your aerobic base?

Mine since the beginning of December is about 1600 miles. I want to do another 2000 miles between now and the end of March before I start interval training in April. I made the mistake last year of racing before I was ready, crashed out anyway. Came back in April far too soon because the weather was nice and got ill. No, this time I'm going to race when I'm good and ready and not before.

Bronzie

Mike Willcox wrote:

What is the extent of your aerobic base?

Less than I would like due to a chest infection that has been with me on and off since early January. Probably somewhere around 900 miles since 1st Dec (but I don't religously record my mileage every ride).

I agree with your comments on building on shaky foundations so maybe time for a re-think as to whether I'm going to be ready to race in 6 weeks.

nmcgann

Mike Willcox wrote:

For me 2 x 20 on a turbo are the surest way to kill off all my motivation, even for living.
....
.

I know what you are saying Mike, 2x20s aren't nice at the best of times when done properly. I don't think I could do that as the only session, but it's ok in context.

Neil

Alex_Simmons/RST

Who says 2 x 20s have to be done indoors?

And who says they have to be done at your threshold (power)?

I would do all mine on a favourite training loop. And they can be done as part of a longer endurance ride. and you can do them at 90-95% of threshold (power) and get just about the same physiological adaptation stimulus as going full bore.

portuguese mike

I've followed this thread with interest and i have a few questions:

What is threshold power - is it different to lactate threshold?

how often should you do a 2x20 session, is once a week adequate?

my main targets for the year are sportives, with the first being in May - is it too soon to include these sort of sessions into my training?

i was thinking of doing this sort of session on my commute home (i can easily alter the route to make it long enough) however the terrain is unavoidably rolling so there's no chance of a flattish 20min section - does this matter.

also it will be dark on my commute home until the clocks change therefore i won't be able to read my HRM or speed most of the time so will have to ride on PE - is this ok or should i get up earlier and do them on the way to work?

sorry if any of this has already been answered and i've missed it.

thanks

NJK

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Who says 2 x 20s have to be done indoors?

And who says they have to be done at your threshold (power)?

I would do all mine on a favourite training loop. And they can be done as part of a longer endurance ride. and you can do them at 90-95% of threshold (power) and get just about the same physiological adaptation stimulus as going full bore.

Exactly. All i am interested at the moment is increasing the volume of 90-95% FTP power, whether that be 2 20's, 1 block of 30-40mins it doesn't matter. It becomes boring when you just do 2 20's at a precise power on a turbo exactly what you don't want.

bahzob

As an aside I find it quite demotivating to do intervals to a time target. Something about just watching a clock tick up or down, without me having any control over it.

My preference is to choose a distance or kj(if using powermeter) target which equates to target work time if done at a given pace/watts. I then find I am more engaged with making the km/kjs go up to hit the target.

As e.g. I do 2x350kj near FTP threshold or 3x333kj at top of tempo range. Both end up doing to around 20mins work.

Alex_Simmons/RST

portuguese mike wrote:

I've followed this thread with interest and i have a few questions:

What is threshold power - is it different to lactate threshold?

A common term in use is Functional Threshold Power (FTP) which is the highest power that a rider can maintain in a quasi-steady state without fatiguing for approximately one hour.

An example would be the average power for a 40km / 25 mile flattish time trial for a reasonably well trained athlete. FTP is typically assessed when the athlete is not unduly fatigued although there are multiple ways of estimating it from power data.

Lactate Threshold is an often misunderstood term with multiple definitions quoted and is NOT the same as Threshold Power.

To determine LT you need to perform a specific test to measure blood lactate values while cycling at ever increasing loads (power). LT is usually defined as a concentration of 1 mmol/L increase over baseline levels or around 2.5 (or 2.x) mmol/L. Power at LT is typically 10-15% below FTP and is equivalent to the power you could sustain for several hours. Note however is that the rate of lactate production is a function not only of intensity (power) but also of duration. Also the value of LT derived is dependent on the testing protocol used. HIgher ramp rates generally result in a higher estimated LT. Finally, LT itself is only an indirect indicator of metobolic stress (but it's the best indicator we have).

Since not everyone can readily do LT testing, then using a power meter to determine what power you are capable of sustaining is a far more practical method, hence the use of the term Functional Threshold Power.

portuguese mike wrote:

how often should you do a 2x20 session, is once a week adequate?

The use and frequency of such sessions is really dependent on what you are training for. 2x20s are good for improving both your LT and FTP (improving one will improve the other) - i.e. make you go faster. Building up "base" is about helping you ride faster for longer.

Since they are aerobic in nature, there is no reason not to do them year round, except if you are just starting out and have not yet developed sufficient training loads to manage that level of intensity. IOW - if they interfere with your ability to train on the following days(s), then you may not be ready for them.

For those new to doing efforts at this level of intensity, then once a week is plenty.

portuguese mike wrote:

my main targets for the year are sportives, with the first being in May - is it too soon to include these sort of sessions into my training?

No, but see my comments above.

portuguese mike wrote:

i was thinking of doing this sort of session on my commute home (i can easily alter the route to make it long enough) however the terrain is unavoidably rolling so there's no chance of a flattish 20min section - does this matter.

No - do them anywhere you like, especially anywhere you can get an uninterrupted run. Don't have to be exactly 2 x 20min, they can be whatever duration you like although for practical purposes they should be at least 10 min long and try to aim for at least 30 min total.

portuguese mike wrote:

also it will be dark on my commute home until the clocks change therefore i won't be able to read my HRM or speed most of the time so will have to ride on PE - is this ok or should i get up earlier and do them on the way to work?

PE is fine.

Alex_Simmons/RST

bahzob wrote:

As an aside I find it quite demotivating to do intervals to a time target. Something about just watching a clock tick up or down, without me having any control over it.

My preference is to choose a distance or kj(if using powermeter) target which equates to target work time if done at a given pace/watts. I then find I am more engaged with making the km/kjs go up to hit the target.

As e.g. I do 2x350kj near FTP threshold or 3x333kj at top of tempo range. Both end up doing to around 20mins work.

Interesting approach. Others do a certain volume of TSS (Training Stress Score) points.

End of day, do whatever helps get the appropriate volume at that intensity.

portuguese mike

Thanks Alex

onabike

This is my first Winter doing intervals and turbo training , aiming to improve my 10-mile TT, and I have a quick question.

I am currently doing:
*2x20 min intervals two timers per week, done on a turbo at 90-95% TT effort. One of these 2x20 min sesssions will change to shorter, harder intervals later in the year to improve V02 max.
*One 3hr, 50 mile endurance ride, with the odd steep hill thrown in.
* Several easy commutes.

I keep hearing about Tempo rides. Would you advise supplementing my three training rides with a tempo ride? If so what sort of distance/time/terrain and effort should i aim for on this tempo ride?

I guess what im saying is that I'm not sure of the difference between a tempo ride and 2x20 minute turbo sessions i.e. what extra benefit i will get.

Alex_Simmons/RST

onabike wrote:

This is my first Winter doing intervals and turbo training , aiming to improve my 10-mile TT, and I have a quick question.

I am currently doing:
*2x20 min intervals two timers per week, done on a turbo at 90-95% TT effort. One of these 2x20 min sesssions will change to shorter, harder intervals later in the year to improve V02 max.
*One 3hr, 50 mile endurance ride, with the odd steep hill thrown in.
* Several easy commutes.

I keep hearing about Tempo rides. Would you advise supplementing my three training rides with a tempo ride? If so what sort of distance/time/terrain and effort should i aim for on this tempo ride?

I guess what im saying is that I'm not sure of the difference between a tempo ride and 2x20 minute turbo sessions i.e. what extra benefit i will get.

The main benefit is increasing the total time spent at levels that provide almost the same physiological adaptations.

Generally people can't do more than 60 mins total near TT pace in any one session but are quite capable of 60-120 mins at tempo pace and be able to back up for training the following day.

Without knowing much about you etc etc, on face value, if you train enough, then yes I'd probably introduce a tempo day in place of one of your easy commutes. Tempo is great bang for your training buck. Start with 30min during one of your rides and go from there.

See here for a graphic that might help explain where tempo fits in.
http://i220.photobucket.com/albums/dd22 ... ison-2.jpg

GeorgeShaw

Just to be clear, because I'm a bit new to all of these training schemes, and the various ways of using HR confuse me a lot.

When I do a 10 (in 30 minutes), the last 10 minutes I average an HR of 152 (which I gather is one of the ways to measure your lactate threshold).

So my target HR for 2x20s should be .... 140-145?

Alex_Simmons/RST

There is no one heart rate at LT. LT is not a heart rate measure, it is a measure of lactate concentration in the blood.

I think if you were looking for a guide to riding 2x20s, then using your average HR for an entire 1 hour or roughly 25mile TT would be about right.

Keep in mind that HR should drift up through the course of the interval, so it would start below the target average and end up higher than the overal average.

Or just ride at or near your 1 hour TT pace for each interval.

GeorgeShaw

Thanks Alex, and sorry for the nonsense about LT. That makes it very straightforward, I'll be out next week to do a 25, and then I can set my target for the 2x20s.

And then I'll saving my pennies for a powermeter

Alex_Simmons/RST

GeorgeShaw wrote:

Thanks Alex, and sorry for the nonsense about LT. That makes it very straightforward, I'll be out next week to do a 25, and then I can set my target for the 2x20s.

And then I'll saving my pennies for a powermeter

No need to apologise, I used to get confused too.

I've posted this before - here is what typically happens to HR (red) when power (yellow) is kept roughly constant during a 2x20 at TT pace/power:

Tom Butcher

Thanks Alex they look very much like what I've been getting for mine so that's reassuring.

Question for anyone familiar with power.
My 2*20s on the turbo (I do some on the road but don't have a power measuring device) at 275-285 watts. If and when I move on to shorter intervals what kind of length intervals are recommended and is there some kind of way of scaling up from my watts for the 20minute intervals to set targets for shorter intervals ? I usually do a bit of road racing and I'd like to work on my kick for trying to get a gap, short power climbs, sprints as I think I'm probably relatively slightly weaker at that than sustained effort over longer periods.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Well if your 2x20 power is about your 1 hour TT power (when rested/motivated), then shorter efforts targetting MAP and VO2 Max are typically done in durations up to ~ 6 min from 105%-135% of that 1hr TT power and Anaerobic Work Capacity/Lactate Tolerance is typically worked on at powers above that again (although they are generally just ridden hard and not paced so much) and typically efforts are 30-60 secs in duration.

musto_skiff

Is there a good book on this stuff for beginners?

nmcgann

Tom Butcher wrote:

Thanks Alex they look very much like what I've been getting for mine so that's reassuring.

Question for anyone familiar with power.
My 2*20s on the turbo (I do some on the road but don't have a power measuring device) at 275-285 watts. If and when I move on to shorter intervals what kind of length intervals are recommended and is there some kind of way of scaling up from my watts for the 20minute intervals to set targets for shorter intervals ? I usually do a bit of road racing and I'd like to work on my kick for trying to get a gap, short power climbs, sprints as I think I'm probably relatively slightly weaker at that than sustained effort over longer periods.

I do 5min V02max intervals with 5min recovery (usually 4 sets). The power is just what you can manage and still complete the full session - it takes a little bit of experimentation to find the right level.

It's amazing how long that last 5 mins feels

Neil

Tom Butcher

Thanks both - gives me something to work on.

Toks

Tom Butcher wrote:

Thanks Alex they look very much like what I've been getting for mine so that's reassuring.

Question for anyone familiar with power.
My 2*20s on the turbo (I do some on the road but don't have a power measuring device) at 275-285 watts. If and when I move on to shorter intervals what kind of length intervals are recommended and is there some kind of way of scaling up from my watts for the 20minute intervals to set targets for shorter intervals ? I usually do a bit of road racing and I'd like to work on my kick for trying to get a gap, short power climbs, sprints as I think I'm probably relatively slightly weaker at that than sustained effort over longer periods.

Hi Tom, there's also a power calculater for all training levels see the ;link below. IOW's if you're not sure what tempo, threshold, vo2max/aerobic power levels are read No 5 - The Power level Calculator
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

Alex_Simmons/RST

Toks wrote:

Hi Tom, there's also a power calculater for all training levels see the ;link below. IOW's if you're not sure what tempo, threshold, vo2max/aerobic power levels are read No 5 - The Power level Calculator
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/

Or this might help too:

http://tiny.cc/iGyZx