2x20

ram038

Basic question but cannot find a definitive answer. what is a 2x20 session? Is that 20 minutes at a specific rate measured by %HR or RPE or wattage? What is the recovery time between the sessions.

Ste_S

From what I've read you want to do them at just below lactate threshold. If going by MHR% start doing them around 85%-90%, if it's too easy increase your heart rate.

No doubt someone with a bit more experience will be along in a bit to explain it a bit better than me

Anonymous

Copied from elsewhere.... Spleling mistakes and all -

THE TEST:

Here's the test for anaerobic threshold. You can get it from Sally Edwards/Sally Reed book- "The Heart Rate Monitor Book for Outdoor and Indoor Cyclists", pp. 92- 94. The test is done on a stationary bike or indoor cycling bike.

The top of Zone 3 is 80%. The top of Zone 2 is 70%. The bottom of Zone 2 is 60%. The bottom of Zone 1 is 50%.
______________________________________________________
2X20 Anaerobic Threshold Test

This is an anaerobic heart rate test designed by David Martin, Ph.D. at Georgia State University. The goal of this workout is to sustain the highest heart rate number you can for 20 minutes, followed by a 5 minute recovery and then sustain the same number again for 20 minutes. After completing both 20 minute intervals, answer the question: Was that hte hardest I could work for the duration of time (40 minutes)? If the answer is yues, then that heart rate number is an excellent estimate of your anaerobic threshold heart rate.

Purpose
Anaerobic theshold is one of the ways of measuring fitness. The higher the percentage of maximum heart rate you can sustain for the duration of the test, the fitter you are. This translates into being able to cycle faster for a longer duration. If you have never done this test before you may want to be conservative the first time until you get the feel for what is happeniing and what is expected. Retest in a month or six weeks to see if you are getting fitter. It is important that you are fully rested before doing this test and that you give yourself a minimum of 48 hours of rest from riding above heart Zone 3.

Workout Plan
Warm up for 5 minutes to the bottom of Zone 2, then gradually increase heart rate for the next 5 minutes until you reach the heart rate number that you thinnk you can sustain for 20 minutes. Sustain that number for 20 minutes. You may choose to use cadence, resistance/gearing or any combination you wish to sustain the heart rate. After 20 minutes, recover to the bottom of Zone 2 for 5 minutes. Make sure you drink plenty of water and allow your legs and body to relax.

After 5 minutes of recovery begin to increase your heart rate agian over the next 3 minutes until you have reached the same heart rate number that you sustained for the first 20 minutes. Sustain that heart rate for a second 20 minutes, then warm down over the next 7 minutes to Zone 1.

________________________________________________________

Keep in mind, you are looking for ONE NUMBER.... not a RANGE OF NUMBERS... Often, I'll run through the first 20 minutes with my students, then when I talk to them in the 5 minute break, they say something like, "oh, I was between 156- 160". Aaaaaaaugh!!!!!!!!!! You are looking for that one number, not a range. So if it's 160, it's ONLY 160... not a range of different numbers that's "around" 160.

This is just a taste of the test, but there's a performance based heart rate chart that you can look at to find that number for anaerobic threshold (80%), and easily read the chart for the rest of the numbers in your heart rate ranges. That's why I suggest you get the book. It's also a great book because it gives outdoor and indoor training exercises you can do to improve your fitness level. If you don't have the book and you want to do the test right away, go to the website: http://www.heartzone.com/index.shtml
Over there, click on the link that says "HEART RATE CALCULATOR". About halfway down the page, there is a heart rate calculator that you can use that will break your heart rates down into zones. You will have to fiddle around with max heart rate, since you didn't test for max hr, but if you keep entering numbers in the max heart rate, you'll eventually find the correct numbers to use. I used my example of 160 as my anaerobic threshold (80%), and I started by entering 195 as my max (guessing). It was a bit low, so I entered 200 as my max hr, and this time, I got correct numbers, because the 80% on the chart came out at 160. I hope that makes sense. If it doesn't, get the book.

easton

The way i do my 20 min threshols intervals are as follows:

10 mins warm up
20mins @ 82%-85% (starting the hrm recording time when you are in the correct zone, no cheating)
5 min break legs spinning
20min @ 85%-87% (again starting time as above)
5 min legs spinning
20 min @ 82%-85% (again starting time as above)
cool down (regain normal vision :? )

To be honest its hard enough to keep my heart rate in these zones, if i was trying to keep it on a specific bpm my cadence would be extremely inconsistent and incredibly annoying. Cardiac drift is a factor in these type of intervals, especially for number 3. These zones were worked out from an incremental lactate test completed to exhaustion. I'm sure Mike and Alex will offer advice regarding RPE and Wattage. They are quite painful and require focus to complete.

Mike Willcox

NapoleonD wrote:

Copied from elsewhere.... Spleling mistakes and all -

THE TEST:

______________________________________________________
2X20 Anaerobic Threshold Test


Keep in mind, you are looking for ONE NUMBER.... not a RANGE OF NUMBERS... Often, I'll run through the first 20 minutes with my students, then when I talk to them in the 5 minute break, they say something like, "oh, I was between 156- 160". Aaaaaaaugh!!!!!!!!!! You are looking for that one number, not a range. So if it's 160, it's ONLY 160... not a range of different numbers that's "around" 160.

.

That's taking the test to it's most ridiculous. Just one number?

I have a confession to make. I have tried to do 2 x 20 twice. On each occasion I have only completed 1 x 20 as I lacked the discipline to keep the pace down. :oops:

Anonymous

I think the one number means the average...

Otherwise indeed it would be ridiculous!

Alex_Simmons/RST

NapoleonD wrote:

Copied from elsewhere.... Spleling mistakes and all -

I'd suggest there's more than just spelling mistakes in that lot.

Alex_Simmons/RST

ram038 wrote:

Basic question but cannot find a definitive answer. what is a 2x20 session? Is that 20 minutes at a specific rate measured by %HR or RPE or wattage? What is the recovery time between the sessions.

To answer the OP:

2 x 20 is a commonly referred to workout description, meaning 2 intervals of 20-min duration, with a short break in between each (from say 1 to 10 minutes). They are usually ridden at an intensity anywhere from a hard tempo up to 10-mile TT pace.

As indicators of intensity go, power is the easiest to define, RPE is good if you're experienced, HR is so-so but can be OK if you know what to expect, and speed on an indoor trainer that has a stable power-speed relationship is also another good way. Power, HR & RPE are described for what is known as Level 4 training in table 1:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

Their purpose is as a workout targeting a variety of physiological adaptations but primarily to improve a rider's power at lactate threshold (which occurs at around a power output you could maximally sustain for 2-3 hours). Power at LT is a key marker of aerobic fitness, and is the primary physiological determinant for success in aerobic endurance sport (i.e. most forms of cycling, at least down to events as short as an individual pursuit). Hence why so many riders want to improve their power at LT.

There is no magic in the 2x or the 20-mins (or the duration of rest in between). With a 10-min warm up, 5-min rest between and 5-min cool down, it just fits neatly into a hour and works well as an indoor workout and especially for the time challenged.

If you ride them such that you can't complete the intervals, then you have ridden too hard and should instead next time try at a slightly lower intensity. Since the adaptations sought are pretty much the same for slightly lower intensities, they don't have to be balls and all hit outs, but certainly require focus and considerable effort. Maximising time in this "zone" will really give a rider substantial kick along in terms of LT improvements.

Of course, LT adaptations also occur by riding at intensities lower than this but require a greater volume of riding to achieve the same impact.

xover_runner

I've been doing 2 * 20s for the last couple of weeks so did something different tonight, namely a 5 * 4. Is that a valid session? On the Tack Flow I did the 20s at 260 watts and the 4s at 300 watts. Would that be about the right ratio? The 4s were hard and I ended up in HR Zone 5 for every one but I could probably had done one more if my life depended on it.

Alex_Simmons/RST

It depends. All sessions are valid (or not), it depends on what you are trying to achieve.

Shorter efforts like you describe are good for improving a rider's VO2 Max and Maximal Aerobic Power. They also have a positive impact on LT, abeit less than the longer efforts, simply because of the vastly reduced time you can actually sustain riding at these levels. Typically you'll get about 20-40 min total of these harder efforts on any one day's training.

Adaptations at this level also don't require the long periods (weeks vs months) that LT does, hence timing their introduction into training is one factor to consider.

Mike Willcox

Having tried to do 2 x 20 minutes on a turbo myself I know how mind numbingly boring and challenging it can be to maintain the steady pace required to get you through the exercise and provide the LT improvements you are seeking. My hats of to you and others who can do this.

I can just about manage 1 x 20 and end up treating it as a 20 minute TT. My mind keeps telling me "I can't be having this" and "you are mad, this is mental torture". Sometimes it seems that the minute hand on the clock has got stuck and the second hand has slowed down.

No the only way for me to use the turbo and be able to keep sane is to treat it as an active recovery session or short sharp intervals of maximal effort. Doing 2 x 20's on a turbo are enough to put you off cycling for life.

ram038

on the subject of training
My MHR using the standard formula is 200-48 = 172 however I have never ,even on hills when I have had to stop and walk, got my HR above 160. I am right in assuming that 160 is my MHR or in contradiction to my RPE rating not trying as hard as I could.
The reason i ask is that i want to create a training plan as i feel that I would get my fitness up to its max in the shortest most efficient way, and depending on what figures i use I won't be achieving that aim..

xover_runner

It's well documented that the 220-age rule is notoriously unreliable, so it could well be wrong and 160 is your max. However from my experience it's take a while to train yourself to get your bike HRmax up. In running races I always max at about 180. When I started cycling I never saw much above 170 despite thinking I was on the ragged edge. Now after 2 years cycling I max at 179 quite consistently so my bike and run HR max are nearly synchronised. Incidentally I am 49 so my 220 -age is meant to be 171.

Have you been cycling a while and this max is consistent?

Monty Dog

IME 2 x 20 takes a lot of focus. If you try and use HR, it's likely that you cannot sustain the effort because of cardiac drift, you'll either tail-off or go anerobic - sustaining a given power/intensity is far more effective IME. I do mine at 90% of my AT, which conveniently is about 400watts and so 360watts is what I set the turbo to. After 10 minutes, it starts needing focus and after 15, life is the wrong end of a telescope! If using HR, you really need to do a 'ramp test' to determine your max HR / AT - theoretical calculations are generally meaningless

Toks

Monty Dog wrote:

IME 2 x 20 takes a lot of focus. If you try and use HR, it's likely that you cannot sustain the effort because of cardiac drift, you'll either tail-off or go anerobic -

mmm Not in my experience, I've been doing 2 2 x 20's for two years

sustaining a given power/intensity is far more effective IME.

indeed but what if you haven't got power feedback

I do mine at 90% of my AT, which conveniently is about 400watts and so 360watts is what I set the turbo to. After 10 minutes, it starts needing focus and after 15, life is the wrong end of a telescope! If using HR, you really need to do a 'ramp test' to determine your max HR / AT - theoretical calculations are generally meaningless

400watts threshold is Elite cat stutus - very impressive is What your have you got, is it calibrated?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Toks wrote:

400watts threshold is Elite cat stutus - very impressive is What your have you got, is it calibrated?

Calibration aside - it really depends on what he weighs.

keef_zip

Monty Dog wrote:

IME 2 x 20 takes a lot of focus. If you try and use HR, it's likely that you cannot sustain the effort because of cardiac drift, you'll either tail-off or go anerobic - sustaining a given power/intensity is far more effective IME. I do mine at 90% of my AT, which conveniently is about 400watts and so 360watts is what I set the turbo to. After 10 minutes, it starts needing focus and after 15, life is the wrong end of a telescope! If using HR, you really need to do a 'ramp test' to determine your max HR / AT - theoretical calculations are generally meaningless

By AT, do you mean you MAP Wattage? Or is 400W your FTP?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Well if Monty Dog has trouble completing 15 minutes at 360W, I doubt very much his FTP is 400W. 90% of FTP is certainly very solid riding but 2 x 20s for example should be fairly comfortably completed at that relative power level. It's what I'd call very hard tempo or sub-TT pace.

alanmcn1

I read a similar thread last week, and after taking advice did a 2x20min trubo session using 80-85% MHR. The results felt very good, and am now continuing this training regularly. I think all you really need are something to spin on with changeable resistance, a HRM, and the ability to listen to your own body a bit. After a few goes you soon know what your 80-90 and max are

preeby

easton wrote:

The way i do my 20 min threshols intervals are as follows:

10 mins warm up
20mins @ 82%-85% (starting the hrm recording time when you are in the correct zone, no cheating)
5 min break legs spinning
20min @ 85%-87% (again starting time as above)
5 min legs spinning
20 min @ 82%-85% (again starting time as above)
cool down (regain normal vision :? )

To be honest its hard enough to keep my heart rate in these zones, if i was trying to keep it on a specific bpm my cadence would be extremely inconsistent and incredibly annoying. Cardiac drift is a factor in these type of intervals, especially for number 3. These zones were worked out from an incremental lactate test completed to exhaustion. I'm sure Mike and Alex will offer advice regarding RPE and Wattage. They are quite painful and require focus to complete.

Don't necessarily agree with waiting for the HR to reach the required zone before you start the 20 minutes.

Surely, once you are putting the effort in, you should start the clock. After all, HR is only an indication of effort. For example, after your 10 minute warm-up, it may take you another 5-10 minutes to reach your 82%-85% zone at a certain level of effort/power, but this should be counted in the 20 minutes.

Otherwise you'll end up doing 25-30 minutes at whatever power level the required zone equates to ?

Just trying to make it easier for you really...

.

easton

PREEBY, Its really not necessary for you to "make it easier" for me. I was answering the OP. I don't believe i asked an opinion on how my training can be made easier, so I don't care if you agree with the way I do them or not. Do you do these type of intervals yourself? Do you always look for an easy way out?

xover_runner

Seconds out.

Alex_Simmons/RST

I've posted it before but I'll do it again - here is a 2x20 showing power AND heart rate (not me BTW). Power yellow, HR red. This is very typical.

HR is a lag indicator. It's a bit like trying to drive by looking into a rear view mirror. It is also not constant despite constant work output.

preeby

Thanks Alex.. I rest my case.

Easton, Yes I do several 3 x 20 sessions per week, timed exactly as Alex has outlined above. And yes, you didn't ask for an opinion, but I gave one anyway. Is that not what forums are for ?

onabike

Im very new to all this, but I have been doing 2x20 mins intervals on a turbo for the first time this Winter. Also my first winter using a heart rate monitor.
I wonder if my heart rate is a bit weird. I find that the maximum heart rate I can sustain over 30 minutes is 175/177 bpm. I did a mock time trial and that was my average. Also confirmed many times on my turbo.
However, my maximum heart rate is 184. I get this from the 220-age and also from road tests.
So my threshold heart rate is : 177/184 = 97%!!
Is that weird or what?

I keep reading posts of people struggling to maintain 87% But 87% for me is 160bpm, which feels like a moderately intense endurance ride, not even a tempo ride.

easton

Preeby, I found the way you made your point to be quite conceited. I do actually have a PT 2.4 aswell as a HRM and actualy prefer training with my HRM. In fairness to Alex i do accept and respect your point and you know far more about these things than i do, but i was told to do these threshold intervals by HR so thats what i do and as backwards as it is, it does work.

Tom Butcher

Preeby - you aren't from Derby are you ?

2*20 - follower of fashion that I am I did my first attempt at these last night. Did it on the road.

On limited previous use of a HRM the highest I've seen was 186 on a hilly 10 mile TT - so my ballpark max would be around that or a little higher.

Used the missus' Garmin GPS which took mile splits and an ave HR. For each 20min effort HR rose from an ave of mid 150s per mile to 164ave for the last mile of the first interval. Second interval was done into a strong head wind - ave speed down to under 19mph - HR pretty much the same as the first interval. Didn't feel as hard as a fast chain gang the previous night - which for the second half had me hanging on the back albeit with faster riders than me - but still required concentration to maintain the effort - especially into the wind for the 2nd effort.

Is this the kind of thing I'm aiming for. There is no prospect of me getting a power meter in the foreseeable future but is there some way I can narrow down the sort of HR range I should be looking at or is it valid to do it by perceived effort.

Mike Willcox

The graph shows that it took between 4 and 5 minutes for the HR to reach a levelling off in line with the effort and then the HR increased more slowly over the next 16/20 minutes (cardiac drift)even though the power was more or less constant throughout.

On that basis, if going on HR alone, it would be easy to overcook it at the beginning of the 20 minute session and then have a drop off of effort towards the end. Unless an allowance for this was factored into the equation. In other words yes, you would have to use PE at the beginning, (come on you knew it was coming) and then if so why not continue on PE throughout the remainder of the session?

hambones

Onabike - I know people keep quoting the 220-age formula (and they also point out how inaccurate this is), well I think the other formula of 210- 1/2 your age is a much better guide (although still a degree of inaccuracy). If we take your example, your MHR would be 192, so your threshold HR becomes 93% from your TT efforts.

I must admit to continued confusion over HRs and zones etc. I did a 4 hour 15 minute ride on Sunday and my average for the whole ride was 162bpm (85%), and for the first 2 hours was 167 (88%). From that I can tell I went out too hard but still managed to keep pushing for the whole ride. It has also taken 3 whole days for my legs to stop hurting! On the Thursday before the ride I tried a set of 2x20 and it was a real struggle to get my HR over 160 on the turbo.

I've rambled as ever and not sure what point I'm making lol!

SteveR_100Milers

What about riding to a speed on a turbo if you have a rear speed sensor? Its easy enough to calibrate HR to speed, which is what I have approximated when i use mine

I cant face trying to keep above 80%, but maintaining 23-25 mph on the turbo is an easier mental challenge maybe.

Alex_Simmons/RST

easton wrote:

Preeby, I found the way you made your point to be quite conceited. I do actually have a PT 2.4 aswell as a HRM and actualy prefer training with my HRM. In fairness to Alex i do accept and respect your point and you know far more about these things than i do, but i was told to do these threshold intervals by HR so thats what i do and as backwards as it is, it does work.

At the end of the day, as long as you are riding sufficient time at roughly the right intensity, then that's all that matters. A few watts here and there ain't a big deal.

With a power meter you can be sure that's the case. With HR, as long as you know the variabilities involved, then that can work too.