Turbo Twice A Week

steve23

i currently dont have much time to train, and am squeezing in 2 30-40min turbo sessions twice a week, with a club run most sundays.

my question is, are the two mid week turbo sessions actually doing anything at all!!?? or is there no point to them as they are so short?

thanks

PhilofCas

I think they'll be doing you a world of good, i notice a marked difference to my feeling of strength when i've done similar in the past, trouble is, i just can't drag myself onto the turbo enough, i tend to use it if i need/want to up my level of fitness for a specific ride/period.
I just find them extremely boring and hardly use mine.

Monty Dog

Turbo sessions need to be hard enough to be of any use - there's no point in just sitting there twiddling away pointlessly. You'll find plenty of sessions online - but really you need to be working on technique or working intensely to get any benefit. I do a couple of 20 minute sets at 80% of my threshold to get the pulse going.

Toks

steve23 wrote:

i currently dont have much time to train, and am squeezing in 2 30-40min turbo sessions twice a week, with a club run most sundays.

my question is, are the two mid week turbo sessions actually doing anything at all!!?? or is there no point to them as they are so short?

thanks

Er... I would've thought it depending what you were doing on the turbo :roll:

SteveR_100Milers

what's the alternative? Do nothing? I think you already know the answer.

steve23

i do hard intervals, like 1 min off/on, then aalso some sprints too.

i suppose its better than nothing at all!!!

Toks

steve23 wrote:

i do hard intervals, like 1 min off/on, then aalso some sprints too.

i suppose its better than nothing at all!!!

Perhaps or perhaps not it depends

1. What are you training for GF,TT, RR, Keep up with mates, Cyclospvs
2. Do you feel you've plateaued on this training
3. Do you want to improve? Eg ride long events faster etc

GF= General fitness

PhilofCas

Toks wrote:

steve23 wrote:

i do hard intervals, like 1 min off/on, then aalso some sprints too.

i suppose its better than nothing at all!!!

Perhaps or perhaps not it depends

1. What are you training for GF,TT, RR, Keep up with mates, Cyclospvs
2. Do you feel you've plateaued on this training
3. Do you want to improve? Eg ride long events faster etc

GF= General fitness

Toks, I may have misunderstood, if Steve doesn't do the twice a week turbo sessions then he'll be better at 1. 2. or 3. ?

SteveR_100Milers

Phil, I was thinking same thing.....at worst doing those turbo sessions will either maintain or reduce the rate at which fitness is lost. Any way you look at it, its better than just sitting on yer ar*e.

vitesse169

I am currently using my turbo 3 or 4 times a week for about 60mins at a time due to not being allowed on the road because of my repairing clavicle fracture. I hope it is keeping SOME fitness in my legs....

PhilofCas

SteveR/Vitesse, absolutely, i can't figure anything but (at the very least holding your level of fitness), 4 times, woa, that's got to be proper beneficial, i wish i had the same drive.

steve23

im training for road races and time trials.

i want to make a step up next year, and really give some serious racing a go.

as im short of time, i was just wondering whether what i am doing now is doing any good or not!

shaw8670

Anything over 20mins is helpful aerobically. I reckon if you are going at it enthusiastically you will burn 500 or so calories in 40 mins.
I have music on, read magazines, use a pulse monitor and have a cadence and rear wheel fitting computer to alleviate the boredom, hence I can cope with 45mins 3 times per week!

Toks

steve23 wrote:

im training for road races and time trials.

i want to make a step up next year, and really give some serious racing a go.

as im short of time, i was just wondering whether what i am doing now is doing any good or not!

can you give some more detail on your turbo rides. We don't need an essay but your three lines posts aren't telling us a great deal. :?

steve23

sorry toks!!!

okay, say for instance, 5 mins warm up/down.

then i do 50 secs at nearly full pace, then the last 10secs of the min at full sprint speed. then 1 min off.

other times i will do 40secs on, 20 of. or 2-3mins at 3/4 pace or above!

im sorry its not very technical, but i like to keep things as simple as possible!!!

Toks

steve23 wrote:

sorry toks!!!

okay, say for instance, 5 mins warm up/down.

then i do 50 secs at nearly full pace, then the last 10secs of the min at full sprint speed. then 1 min off.

other times i will do 40secs on, 20 of. or 2-3mins at 3/4 pace or above!

im sorry its not very technical, but i like to keep things as simple as possible!!!

Cool!Hopefully Ric, Alex, Ruth, Mike and others will chip in as well: these short 'hard as you can efforts' are essentially training your anaerobic capacity which although important in in road racing (bridging efforts attacking etc) are not as crucial as you raising your Functional threshold or TT Power (highest power output you could maintain for 60mins).

The competitive cycling events you mentioned - road racing and TTing - are essentially aerobic events. Hence your maximum aerobic power and threshld power will be most significant. You may well be able to sprint like Boonen but if you can't keep up when the the pack is cruising at 300 Watts you'll be off the back .

I don't deny you won't gain some training benefit from the short really hard stuff but leave this till you're much closer till racing starts. At the moment you should really try and build the size of your aerobic engine. Have you heard of 2 x 20 ? These are the ultimate no nonsense, cut to the chase intervals especially for time limited competitive cyclists.

On the turbo or road basically warm up for 5-10 mins then ride at a moderately hard pace for twenty mins take a mental five min break and go again for twenty mins. The complete workout should be done in less than 55 mins. It should feel a bit like a riding @ friendly time trial pace - just moderately hard! (Perhaps 85-90% of your maximum heartrate).You'll be aware of your breathing and you'll need to concentrate; if your breathing is laboured you're riding too hard! :shock:

Because I only have 6 hours to train I normally do three of these a week and a three hour tempo ride on sunday. I plan to start TT and RR in April so I'll start the short hard stuff you mentioned in late Feb. Hope this helps for more in fo do a search on 2 x 20's

steve23

thats great advice, thanks!

i will give those a try!!!

so my short turbo intervals are ok, but just wont help my long distance events!?

Ieuanllan

I'm no expert at all, being fairly new to road biking, but I totally agree with Toks about building up/maintaining your strength for most of the off season, and building up with harder, more intense workouts closer to the start of the season.
This is a safe strategy to avoid burning out and the risk of injury from too much intense effort.
This kind of training strategy works in plenty of sports, look at boxing for example, general training keeps you in condition, but then in the period before a fight, you really up the intensity for a fairly short period for maximum benefit.

SteveR_100Milers

Toks wrote:

steve23 wrote:

sorry toks!!!

okay, say for instance, 5 mins warm up/down.

then i do 50 secs at nearly full pace, then the last 10secs of the min at full sprint speed. then 1 min off.

other times i will do 40secs on, 20 of. or 2-3mins at 3/4 pace or above!

im sorry its not very technical, but i like to keep things as simple as possible!!!

Cool!Hopefully Ric, Alex, Ruth, Mike and others will chip in as well: these short 'hard as you can efforts' are essentially training your anaerobic capacity which although important in in road racing (bridging efforts attacking etc) are not as crucial as you raising your Functional threshold or TT Power (highest power output you could maintain for 60mins).

The competitive cycling events you mentioned - road racing and TTing - are essentially aerobic events. Hence your maximum aerobic power and threshld power will be most significant. You may well be able to sprint like Boonen but if you can't keep up when the the pack is cruising at 300 Watts you'll be off the back .

I don't deny you won't gain some training benefit from the short really hard stuff but leave this till you're much closer till racing starts. At the moment you should really try and build the size of your aerobic engine. Have you heard of 2 x 20 ? These are the ultimate no nonsense, cut to the chase intervals especially for time limited competitive cyclists.

On the turbo or road basically warm up for 5-10 mins then ride at a moderately hard pace for twenty mins take a mental five min break and go again for twenty mins. The complete workout should be done in less than 55 mins. It should feel a bit like a riding @ friendly time trial pace - just moderately hard! (Perhaps 85-90% of your maximum heartrate).You'll be aware of your breathing and you'll need to concentrate; if your breathing is laboured you're riding too hard! :shock:

Because I only have 6 hours to train I normally do three of these a week and a three hour tempo ride on sunday. I plan to start TT and RR in April so I'll start the short hard stuff you mentioned in late Feb. Hope this helps for more in fo do a search on 2 x 20's

couple of q's:

1. I though 2x20's were supposed to be ridden at TT pace, not "moderately hard"

2. I don't know of anyoine that isn't breathing laboured (RPE 6+) when at 85%+ MHR. At 90% I am close to red lining, I cant talk let alone labour my breathing! At the PE you describe its more like 70-75% MHR effort (which by the way cycling weeklies training special earlier tis year suggested for 2x20's: 20 mins in Z3, which seems to me way to easy.)

Am confused now - what quantified effort (HR or PE will do) shgoud they be ridden at?

Alex_Simmons/RST

Well intervals can be ridden how you like but if we assume that the primary purpose of these 2x20-min efforts is to lift one's 25mile/40km TT power, then it makes sense to ride them at around TT power.

However, that doesn't necessarily mean intervals such as these need to be at full on TT effort all the time, indeed you can gain almost the same physiological adaptation by riding them anywhere between 92-105% of TT power.

By riding them at an effort level less than full on TT pace, you are more likely to be able to back up to do them more regularly and spend a greater overall training time at this level, hence gain greater overall benefit.

That's not to say you shouldn't stretch yourself as well at times.

Also, there is strong TT power adaptation to be gained from riding longer periods at power a bit less less than this range - and for many, this type of riding gives a lot of bang for the training buck (up to a point).

DaveyL

Alex, can you give suggested durations and %ages of FTP for examples? What about a one hour ride? Would 80% of FTP be OK, or is that too low.

It makes sense there will be a range of intensity you can do the 2x20s at, especially in terms of 10 mile TT power. It might be the case that someone who can do a 10 in 30 min could manage 2 x 20 at that pace, but I doubt whether someone who can do 21 min for a 10 could do a 20 min interval at that pace then back off for 5 min and do it again. If that's the case, they ought to be able to go faster than 21 min! I guess it is formally 25 mile TT power people talk about when they talk about 2 x 20s?

I just try to ride them as a high an effort as possible (and keep that consistent) and if I feel I have something left at the end of the session I go a bit harder next time.

Alex_Simmons/RST

25mi / 40km TT power and FTP are essentially the same thing. FTP is maximal power for about an hour. So that's the power range anchor I was referring to.

As for longer duration rides beyond "interval" length, well that really depends on your current training load and at what stage of training you are at. Riding at 85-90% of FTP is still pretty fatiguing and it may a while before a rider is capable of lots of time in this range. Typically 30-120 min.

Have a look at this item and the chart for some guidance:
http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/levels.asp

Or you can also look at it in terms of a percentage of MAP. See here:
http://www.cyclecoach.com/pageID-downlo ... _zones.htm

Bear in mind that FTP is typically 72-77% of MAP.

Toks

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

couple of q's:

1. I though 2x20's were supposed to be ridden at TT pace, not "moderately hard"

Hi Steve, we're possibly getting into semantics here but "moderately hard" perfectly sums up how I've always ridden my 2 x 20's. Basically when fresh

1. I could just mutter a few words but definitely could not hold a conversation
2. I could sip some water quickly but definitley couldn't glug away
3. My breathing is notticeable YES but not laboured - that would happen during 4-6min VO2max intervals
4. My heart rate would be between 83-91bpms,
5. When fresh I could do them three days consecutively
5. I've been doing them for two years so if you're a newbie the RPE maybe somewhat greater

...(which by the way cycling weeklies training special earlier tis year suggested for 2x20's: 20 mins in Z3, which seems to me way to easy.)

I haven't seen the article but they're possibly playing it safe cause of the wider cycling demographic (you know Rob on his new race bike ). Obviously heart rate is a tricky one to deal with cause it can be affected by any number of thing illness, faitigue, fitness, heat exhaustion etc. Between 70-75% I could ride like that for a few hours and could even send a text message and have a full phone conversation : Thats definitly not the case with 2 x20's and if it is you ain't doing them properly :

DaveyL

Thanks for those links, Alex. It's confirmed that I'm (just) doing my tempo rides at the right level and has given me a good idea of what to aim for if I start short (1 min on 1 min off) intervals. That's presuming I can't go any harder on the 2x20s. Which I probably can...

SteveR_100Milers

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

25mi / 40km TT power and FTP are essentially the same thing. FTP is maximal power for about an hour. So that's the power range anchor I was referring to.

As for longer duration rides beyond "interval" length, well that really depends on your current training load and at what stage of training you are at. Riding at 85-90% of FTP is still pretty fatiguing and it may a while before a rider is capable of lots of time in this range. Typically 30-120 min.

.

so in other words ride them as hard as possible...just like a club 10 then on a wednesday night. Damn, and I thought Toks had given us a <different> way.......

Alex_Simmons/RST

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

so in other words ride them as hard as possible...just like a club 10 then on a wednesday night. Damn, and I thought Toks had given us a <different> way.......

I think you better re-read what I wrote.

kieranb

one thing I would say as well with your sessions,earlier this year I was doing 2 turbo sessions a a week plus saturday club run and bike commuting. The all out sprint sessions took too much out of me and I actually got better by cutting one of them out, as I go quite hard on my commutes as well, due to time constraints at either end. I ended up feeling fatigued near the end of the week.

onabike

I bought a Turbo and a heart rate monitor a few months ago . I also read a few websites/books to learn how to use both.
I go on it 2 times mid-week and what I do depends on my current level of fitness and my aims. Right now Im getting over a cold and a little knee pain, and so I'm just doing 75-80%% max HR for maybe 40 minutes.
As I get fitter I increase the resistance and intensity slightly to help promote muscle growth ( some call this muscular endurance) and to prepare for intervals.
Then I progress to Intervals. I've been doing 1x20 minutes at threshold heart rate. I want to start doing 2x20 mins as I progress.

Although Im quite new to turbo training and heart rate zones, I've already found it boosts my riding on the road.

Maybe Im weird but I enjoy turbo training. I cleared out my garage, painted it a funky colour, got the ipod , fan and TV set up. The music and the heart rate monitor keep me focused and up for it.

Toks

onabike wrote:

As I get fitter I increase the resistance and intensity slightly to help promote muscle growth ( some call this muscular endurance) and to prepare for intervals.
Although Im quite new to turbo training and heart rate zones, I've already found it boosts my riding on the road.

.

Glad to hear its going well and your feeling fitter. I'm not sure how much muscle growth you'll get from riding a turbo though.

Mike Willcox

Toks wrote:

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

couple of q's:

1. I though 2x20's were supposed to be ridden at TT pace, not "moderately hard"

Hi Steve, we're possibly getting into semantics here but "moderately hard" perfectly sums up how I've always ridden my 2 x 20's. Basically when fresh

1. I could just mutter a few words but definitely could not hold a conversation
2. I could sip some water quickly but definitley couldn't glug away
3. My breathing is notticeable YES but not laboured - that would happen during 4-6min VO2max intervals
4. My heart rate would be between 83-91bpms,
5. When fresh I could do them three days consecutively
5. I've been doing them for two years so if you're a newbie the RPE maybe somewhat greater

...(which by the way cycling weeklies training special earlier tis year suggested for 2x20's: 20 mins in Z3, which seems to me way to easy.)

I haven't seen the article but they're possibly playing it safe cause of the wider cycling demographic (you know Rob on his new race bike ). Obviously heart rate is a tricky one to deal with cause it can be affected by any number of thing illness, faitigue, fitness, heat exhaustion etc. Between 70-75% I could ride like that for a few hours and could even send a text message and have a full phone conversation : Thats definitly not the case with 2 x20's and if it is you ain't doing them properly :

I'm an old'un but even my HR is up in the 150's at TT pace

Toks

toks wrote:

4. My heart rate would be between 83-91bpms,[/b]

Mike wilcox wrote:

I'm an old'un but even my HR is up in the 150's at TT pace

Well spotted Mike that should of course read between 83-91% of my max