I need a coach

George B

I'm a 2nd cat road racer and want to find a fairly local coach who could help structure a training regime/scheme for me.

I am a fairly strong 2nd cat who likes breakaways, I'm looking towards progressing to 1st cat level and think this is the right time to start some coaching.

Anyone coaches local to the Addiscombe area, or can this be done over the internet.

Cheers George

SteveR_100Milers

There are two that post in these forums: Ric Stern and BeaconRuth with links to their sites etc.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Hi George

Drop Ric Stern a note at:
ric@cyclecoach.com

or myself
alex@cyclecoach.com

and we'll see if we can assist.

and I'm sure Ruth could help too but I don't know Ruth's contact

Cheers
Alex

Mike Willcox1

You pays your money and takes your choice.

There are some fundamental differences between what coaches believe is the correct way to train. Some believe that riding the bike is ALL and measuring output is the way to make the best improvement in fitness. Others believe that you can benefit from off the bike training re building strength etc. and use feel and perceived exertion to judge output and recovery.

Those that testify to off the bike training to build strength to boost power and fitness include past masters like Dave Lloyd (See Cycling Plus December 2007) and Cadel Evans (bike radar October 2007).

Those that believe that CV fitness is the ultimate limiter and strength is unimportant include Alex Simmons and Ric Stern.

Choosing a coach may not be as simple as it seems.

DaveyL

Is Cadel Evans a past master? Or even a coach?

Mike Willcox1

DaveyL wrote:

Is Cadel Evans a past master? Or even a coach?

I missed out: Cadel Evans "winner of the UCI Pro Tour 2007".

Apologies

DaveyL

He's not a coach though, is he? And you were talking about coaches.

PhilofCas

DaveyL wrote:

He's not a coach though, is he? And you were talking about coaches.

Could he not act very easily as one ?

DaveyL

He *could* act as one. But at the moment, he isn't.

Mike Willcox1

I haven't placed Ruth in any category but believe that she has a more universal (not dogmatic) approach in that different methods suit different people, and that you can get decent results from disciplined application without resorting to laying out money on expensive training aids.

Ric_Stern/RST

lets put it like this: mike wilcox isn't a coach or a sports scientist and simply doesn't know sufficient to make a valid, *educated* opinion on the physiology of sport. On the other hand, i've worked with riders in the TdF, world class level riders, and have peer reviewed research.

cheers
ric

Mike Willcox1

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

lets put it like this: mike wilcox isn't a coach or a sports scientist and simply doesn't know sufficient to make a valid, *educated* opinion on the physiology of sport. On the other hand, i've worked with riders in the TdF, world class level riders, and have peer reviewed research.

cheers
ric

Then I'm sure they will all be beating a path to your door......or not as the case may be.

Mike Willcox1

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

lets put it like this: mike wilcox isn't a coach or a sports scientist and simply doesn't know sufficient to make a valid, *educated* opinion on the physiology of sport. On the other hand, i've worked with riders in the TdF, world class level riders, and have peer reviewed research.

cheers
ric

I've won a few races and got a few records which is more than you have old mate. At the same time I believe in the same methods as Dave Lloyd, Lance Armstrong and Cadel Evans.

Who is in your camp?

Toks

George, you're already using a power meter (as such) to monitor your training so I think Ric is definitley your man.

Mike Wilcox wrote:

At the same time I believe in the same methods as Dave Lloyd, Lance Armstrong and Cadel Evans.

Cool, I knew deep down you like the idea of using a power meter

SteveR_100Milers

Oh come on Toks! There's a bit more to coaching than simply knowing how to use a power meter!!!

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I've won a few races and got a few records which is more than you have old mate. At the same time I believe in the same methods as Dave Lloyd, Lance Armstrong and Cadel Evans.

Who is in your camp?

You've coached these riders? Me thinks not. Specifically who we coach is in-confidence - that's a part of being professional.

So you actually know for a fact what training these riders do? I doubt it, very few top level riders really reveal their training - indeed many throw red herrings out there for fun.

Performance as a rider does not automatically make you a good coach BTW. Physical capability and intellectual ability are not linked as far as I know. Although I have won a few races and racing to a certain level is definitely an advantage

Mike Willcox1

OK then Alex what am I doing wrong then?

Mike Willcox1

BTW I have given training advice to riders on an informal basis, which they have taken on board and used to win races. Unfortunately I too cannot reveal who they are; in confidence and all that. 8)

Cards on the table.

I am not a coach and have never pretended to be one. However if I was I would not stoop to touting my services on an internet forum and at the same time rubbish other riders who dare to question my coaching methods by suggesting that they are thick and uneducated.

Fair enough!

chrisw12

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

I've won a few races and got a few records which is more than you have old mate. At the same time I believe in the same methods as Dave Lloyd, Lance Armstrong and Cadel Evans.

Who is in your camp?

You've coached these riders? Me thinks not. Specifically who we coach is in-confidence - that's a part of being professional.

So you actually know for a fact what training these riders do? I doubt it, very few top level riders really reveal their training - indeed many throw red herrings out there for fun.

Performance as a rider does not automatically make you a good coach BTW. Physical capability and intellectual ability are not linked as far as I know. Although I have won a few races and racing to a certain level is definitely an advantage

What does make a good coach then? For me to teach, I have to have subject knowledge but I also must be good at my subject, two different things don't you think?

So to flip the bold sentence around, A good coach automatically should be/have been a performance rider. :roll:

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

OK then Alex what am I doing wrong then?

Now let me get this straight.

Someone asks a question on a forum - "I'm looking for a coach?", then another forum member suggest two - RST & Ruth Beacon. I then provide the contact details for RST (but not Ruth and I say why), then you show up with some comment about what RST "believes" in a manner that suggests that's all we think coaching is and then you suggest that I am stooping so low as to "tout for business". That's a bit rich.

For the record, I don't "believe" in any coaching method - I use professional and evidence based coaching (as opposed to belief based coaching) to manage a client's coaching requirements. Coaching is tailored to each client's specific requirements, background, goals, time constraints, tools, physiological profile, target events (be they racing or non-race events) and so on. (And believe it or not - there are some riders whom I would put in the gym weights room - where that made sense for their target event and the physiological development required).

I made no disparaging remarks about you - simply pointed out that being a high performance rider does not necessarily make one a good coach and neither is intellectual capacity linked to physical ability. If you took these comments personally, then you are reading too much into it.

Oh - aside from Lance, Cadel uses a powermeter extensively as well: Cadel "my coach wouldn't let me ride without it" Evans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVJCJZ5K9iE

And I'd suggest that a few tips on the start line or informal advice is hardly coaching (not to say that it's not useful - it often is and do the same myself). Managing a client through a season for performance outcomes and their ongoing development season on season is a more complex task.

And for the record, while I have not coached TdF level riders (like Ric) I do coach riders at Cat 1 level and also riders that have achieved National Champion status. I also coach club level riders and some that are making comebacks from layoffs the bike, either due to personal circumstances or serious injury/illness.

I don't have peer reviewed research papers like Ric, but I have written for the lay press, contribute widely on the topic of riding and racing with a power meter and have been a contributor and beta tester for development of some of the latest science-based tools for getting the most out of power meter data.

Apart from that I also provide pro-bono services at the Dunc Gray Velodrome through the summer helping track novices get started in track riding/racing as well as helping the experienced ones by managing the track training sessions. As for myself, well I have multiple championship medals, including gold medal in team pursuiting and a podium finish in Australian national masters points race championship amongst many other results and other wins.

top_bhoy

If being a good footballer was a pre-requisite for being a top coach/manager then Jock Stein would never have got near Celtic Park and that would rule out the likes of Ferguson, Mourinho, Wenger et al, who were barely better than minor league players. The same can be said for the top golf and tennis coaches. There is more to coaching/managing I assume than simply knowing the rules and being good at ti.

Mike Willcox1

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

OK then Alex what am I doing wrong then?

Now let me get this straight.

Someone asks a question on a forum - "I'm looking for a coach?", then another forum member suggest two - RST & Ruth Beacon. I then provide the contact details for RST (but not Ruth and I say why), then you show up with some comment about what RST "believes" in a manner that suggests that's all we think coaching is and then you suggest that I am stooping so low as to "tout for business". That's a bit rich.

For the record, I don't "believe" in any coaching method - I use professional and evidence based coaching (as opposed to belief based coaching) to manage a client's coaching requirements. Coaching is tailored to each client's specific requirements, background, goals, time constraints, tools, physiological profile, target events (be they racing or non-race events) and so on. (And believe it or not - there are some riders whom I would put in the gym weights room - where that made sense for their target event and the physiological development required).

I made no disparaging remarks about you - simply pointed out that being a high performance rider does not necessarily make one a good coach and neither is intellectual capacity linked to physical ability.

[b]If you took these comments personally, then you are reading too much into it.[/b]

Bollox who else were they directed to then?


Oh - aside from Lance, Cadel uses a powermeter extensively as well: Cadel "my coach wouldn't let me ride without it" Evans:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IVJCJZ5K9iE

And I'd suggest that a few tips on the start line or informal advice is hardly coaching (not to say that it's not useful - it often is and do the same myself). Managing a client through a season for performance outcomes and their ongoing development season on season is a more complex task.

And for the record, while I have not coached TdF level riders (like Ric) I do coach riders at Cat 1 level and also riders that have achieved National Champion status. I also coach club level riders and some that are making comebacks from layoffs the bike, either due to personal circumstances or serious injury/illness.

I don't have peer reviewed research papers like Ric, but I have written for the lay press, contribute widely on the topic of riding and racing with a power meter and have been a contributor and beta tester for development of some of the latest science-based tools for getting the most out of power meter data.

Apart from that I also provide pro-bono services at the Dunc Gray Velodrome through the summer helping track novices get started in track riding/racing as well as helping the experienced ones by managing the track training sessions. As for myself, well I have multiple championship medals, including gold medal in team pursuiting and a podium finish in Australian national masters points race championship amongst many other results and other wins.

Pardon me for pointing out some home truths, but it seems to have touched a nerve or two eh?

So maybe strength training off the bike does have a place after all, and that's all I have ever pointed out as per Dave Lloyd, Cadel Evans and Lance Armstong PLUS UNCLE TOM COBBLEY AND THE KITCHEN SINK.

The CV is all very nice I'm sure but in this context a total smokescreen from this admission.

SO I'll take from all of the above that I'm doing "NOTHING WRONG" then.

Mike Willcox1

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

lets put it like this: mike wilcox isn't a coach or a sports scientist and simply doesn't know sufficient to make a valid, *educated* opinion on the physiology of sport. On the other hand, i've worked with riders in the TdF, world class level riders, and have peer reviewed research.

cheers
ric

Pardon me for being a bit thick but if that isn't a personal disparaging remark made from an arrogant twit then I don't know what is.

phil s

I'm sure Ric Stern is very good at what he does, but the way he comes on here and rubbishes strength training leaves me totally cold. That's just a personal thing but I find it bordering on extreme smugness. If strength training is such a waste of time why is it I know of a substantial number of riders who ride at the very highest level who swear by it? And no, it's not a red herring either.

Alex_Simmons/RST

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

Pardon me for pointing out some home truths, but it seems to have touched a nerve or two eh?

Yeah - the one in my left foot

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

So maybe strength training off the bike does have a place after all, ...

Yep, for a track sprinter, kilo rider, a keirin rider and some BMX riders - sure strength training off the bike has a place.

Mike Willcox1

Alex_Simmons/RST wrote:

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

Pardon me for pointing out some home truths, but it seems to have touched a nerve or two eh?

Yeah - the one in my left foot

Mike Willcox1 wrote:

So maybe strength training off the bike does have a place after all, ...

Yep, for a track sprinter, kilo rider, a keirin rider and some BMX riders - sure strength training off the bike has a place.

I'm off out for a ride with the odd bar bell or two.

Ric_Stern/RST

phil s wrote:

I'm sure Ric Stern is very good at what he does, but the way he comes on here and rubbishes strength training leaves me totally cold. That's just a personal thing but I find it bordering on extreme smugness. If strength training is such a waste of time why is it I know of a substantial number of riders who ride at the very highest level who swear by it? And no, it's not a red herring either.

my stance is a review of the peer reviewed literature in this area, along with looking at first principles, and actual force data from cycling, and applies to endurance based racing cyclists. My stance is no different to many other sports scientists.

Just because some high level riders do weight training (etc) doesn't mean it makes them better as cyclists, or that they know what they're doing. There are plenty that don't.

ric

Toks

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Oh come on Toks! There's a bit more to coaching than simply knowing how to use a power meter!!!

The OP, George B, happens to be a mate and has in my opinion started to train scientifically thats why I mentioned 'power' and hence Ric. But yeah you're 100% correct using a power meter to monitor/assess/guage/plot/determine your training rides won't automatically make you a first cat rider. But of course we all know that

Phil S wrote:

I'm sure Ric Stern is very good at what he does, but the way he comes on here and rubbishes strength training leaves me totally cold. That's just a personal thing but I find it bordering on extreme smugness. If strength training is such a waste of time why is it I know of a substantial number of riders who ride at the very highest level who swear by it? And no, it's not a red herring either.

Hey Phil, having read Ric's post for quite a while there's definitly and honesty/frankness about them. But i love that. If your pasionate about what you believe in, and more specifically, feel you're standing on the truth don't fcuk about tell people how it is. Shhit there's quite a few others on Bike Radar that do that, huh Mike?

George B

Oh dear I seem to have opened a can of worms here

Thanks for the replies I'll check out the websites as I'm new to Bike Radar I'm not clued up on the politics, but I know I will let my riding do all my talking

I'm from the camp of stay on the bike to improve, although I'm open to any expert advice that will help.

Mike Willcox1

George B wrote:

Oh dear I seem to have opened a can of worms here

Thanks for the replies I'll check out the websites as I'm new to Bike Radar I'm not clued up on the politics, but I know I will let my riding do all my talking

I'm from the camp of stay on the bike to improve, although I'm open to any expert advice that will help.

Timely feature article on Bike Radar today entitled "How to Climb" by Dave Lloyd. I couldn't have put it better myself especially the importance of channelling the power into smooth riding by keeping still on the saddle while seated (core strength), and controlling the bike whilst out of the saddle (upper body strength).

Let your riding do the talking you say well Dave Lloyd could ride a bit I can tell you.

I

Ric_Stern/RST

some interesting threads on coaching here
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=16040
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=16123
http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/ind ... opic=16127

ric