La Marmotte

Mark Alexander

Hi everyone,

Right, its official I have well and truly lost the plot.
A friend (I think he's a friend but I'm begining to wonder) has decided to go to France to complete La Marmotte next year. I have stupidly agreed to join him. I also am a bloody minded person so I won't back out now.

any advice would be of use.

ut_och_cykla

Find a body double? or start training soon?

andyp

I've started it twice, in 2002 and 2006. I didn't finish in 2002 due to the poor weather and my average form (later diagnosed as coeliac disease). In 2006 I had a good start, avoided the delay due to the crash on the descent of the Glandon and finished in 8:34. It was probably the hardest day I've ever had on a bike.

For the 2006 event I started training on the 1st of December 2005 and got a good level of base fitness by Easter. I then fine tuned that with some other European events, I rode the GF Felice Gimondi in May and the Megeve Mont Blanc in June, to get my form right. I think my form began to fade a bit before the Marmotte as I was definitely better for the Megeve.

To do the Marmotte you need two things; a lot of endurance and the ability to climb well, i.e. threshold power. A third thing, that you have no influence over, is luck with the weather, other riders etc.

oldwelshman

Maybe I will see you there Mark ?
I will just do my usual training midweek and race or clubruns on weekend and do probably 3 or 4 uk sportives for prep.
The North Wales Gran Fondo Super is a good one to do as prep, loads of longish climbs.

BeaconRuth

andyp wrote:

It was probably the hardest day I've ever had on a bike.

My advice is to note well what Andy says. He has a lot of experience in the mountains of Europe.

Ruth

andyp

BeaconRuth wrote:

My advice is to note well what Andy says. He has a lot of experience in the mountains of Europe.

:oops:

Thanks Ruth. I'd contend that you do too!

I don't know if this applies to you or not Mark but if you've never ridden in the high mountains before then I'd strongly recommendend that you try and get some experience of them before the event. You cannot replicate any of the climbs in the Marmotte in the UK so going in blind is a big shock not just physically but also mentally. Even if you have then a long weekend in the Alps about a month before will help your form and also give you confidence that your training has been up to scratch.

Ric_Stern/RST

andyp wrote:

BeaconRuth wrote:

My advice is to note well what Andy says. He has a lot of experience in the mountains of Europe.

:oops:

Thanks Ruth. I'd contend that you do too!

I don't know if this applies to you or not Mark but if you've never ridden in the high mountains before then I'd strongly recommendend that you try and get some experience of them before the event. You cannot replicate any of the climbs in the Marmotte in the UK so going in blind is a big shock not just physically but also mentally. Even if you have then a long weekend in the Alps about a month before will help your form and also give you confidence that your training has been up to scratch.

Even the climbs round where Mark is, aren't particularly hard (when compared to the Alps, etc).

In 1990, i rode the vast majority of the TdF (in front of the pros!) and just did it on my normal road race training (which wasn't sufficient).

ric

mrushton

BeaconRuth wrote:

andyp wrote:

It was probably the hardest day I've ever had on a bike.

My advice is to note well what Andy says. He has a lot of experience in the mountains of Europe.

Ruth

He is giving sound advice. I'd also suggest going out there and trying either the route or aspects of it. Until you have done the Telegraph and the Galibier you can't know what you are letting yourself in for. The route is not massively hard if you have prepared well. But unless you know about the high passes,temperatures etc you are already at a disadvantage. if you can afford it, fly out and use GPM10, a cycle firm out there. It's run by a british guy and it's the best training you can do, as you are supported on the ride and get to stay in a hotel. The 'Classic Col' trip actually runs over most of the Marmotte route but over 2 days and the Tour de Mont Blanc is a 4 day tour in and out of Switzerland/Italy and France.

www.gpm10.com

SteveR_100Milers

Brave (but slightly mad) man Mark! You'd better start doing 5x Bwlch / Rhigos reps twice a week!!

I'll see you in 2009 (earliest I'm going to try a euro sportive after sampling the Cymru GF and the Dragon this year).

To do the Marmotte you need two things; a lot of endurance and the ability to climb well, i.e. threshold power..

Which is why! as oldwelshy will testify.

Kléber

Here are some more ideas for you.

Don't confuse doing a 2 mile climb 10 times with the 20 mile Galibier, there's nothing like it.
Despite what everyone says, even the slowest riders take 12 hours so get some fitness and pace yourself and it'll be ok. It is hard but far from impossible.
Get your weight down and think about your bike, maybe a triple or compact chainset is called for.
Fly out before for a recce. Book early and for £150 you can have a long weekend in the Alps to ride some of the route.
Why put all your eggs in one basket, if it's chucking it down or snowing on the big day you might not want to ride. So like Andy, think about doing a Gran Fondo or other cyclosportive in France as part of your build up, they're good fun in their own right.

richa

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

I'll see you in 2009 (earliest I'm going to try a euro sportive after sampling the Cymru GF and the Dragon this year).

Steve, I think you talk yourself down. You performed well in the Dragon this year (7hrs20).

My 7:17 in this years Dragon translated to 9:54 in the L'Etape 3 weeks later.

Reckon that if you are in 7hr form in Dragon 08 you are well set for a Marmotte 08 attempt...

Ric_Stern/RST

Unless you can make significant changes to your mass (e.g., > 5 kg) you'll almost certainly get a bigger return from training to increase your power output (rather than trying to lose fat mass). As a consequence of better training - to increase your power you may also find that you lose some fat mass.

While it's possibly a good idea to try some of the climbs/roads prior to an event such as the Etape or Marmotte, i don't feel it's imperative.

Steve_R mentioned about increasing his climbing and threshold power. This can all be done in your regular country where you live. Some quality TT work between now and July and you'll find that you'll be significantly fitter and better able to cope with the demands of the event (and a whole lot of other stuff!)

ric

Kléber

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Unless you can make significant changes to your mass (e.g., > 5 kg) you'll almost certainly get a bigger return from training to increase your power output (rather than trying to lose fat mass). As a consequence of better training - to increase your power you may also find that you lose some fat mass.

Surely it boils down to training well and a healthy diet. Once you've maximised power outputs, shedding body fat sensibly can only help, not only for the loss of deadweight but also for the increased VO2 max?

Ric_Stern/RST

Kléber wrote:

Ric_Stern/RST wrote:

Unless you can make significant changes to your mass (e.g., > 5 kg) you'll almost certainly get a bigger return from training to increase your power output (rather than trying to lose fat mass). As a consequence of better training - to increase your power you may also find that you lose some fat mass.

Surely it boils down to training well and a healthy diet. Once you've maximised power outputs, shedding body fat sensibly can only help, not only for the loss of deadweight but also for the increased VO2 max?

Well you can eat a healthy diet and still be carrying excess kg. However, the key phrase is "once you've maximised power outputs": just how easy is it to maximise power outputs? (it's a rhetorical question).

Ric

Kléber

Sorry, I was being cautious not to recommend weight loss for the sake of it. Someone might jump on the idea and go on a crash diet, losing weight and probably muscle power. You never know, people get eating disorders.

So my point is that you should lose bodyweight if you can, in a sensible way. As for "maximising wattage", I mean after you've done all you practically can to get fit.

In short, get fit and be lean and you'll do a great ride.

I would recommend a visit if you can. Riding 20 miles uphill means almost no chance to freewheel, being under constant load is something. But above all, I've come across a lot of riders who make it fine to the top of the climb but then brick themselves on the descent and all the effort going uphill is wasted because they're nervous on the descents and worse, as you see in the Marmotte, the standard of riding by some is quite low on the descents. Being relaxed here can help a lot. Plus you get a fun weekend!

vermooten

Endurance training will serve you well. Prepare for cold, snow, wind, rain, hail and unbearable heat all at once. Take Chopper's advice: "Take your skirt off, cancel your manicure, grow a moustache and ..."

---

knedlicky

In year 2000 I decided to enter the Marmotte as a sort of ‘comeback’, after a whole 12 months off the bike due to injury. During Winter I had kept relatively fit by going jogging 2-3 times a week for 40 mins or so, and using a turbo trainer twice a week for 30-45 mins, but it wasn’t until late April that I could ride a bike at all on the road, so only had 10-11 weeks of real preparation time.

After a week or two ‘acclimatising’ myself to cycling again, I rode on average 80-90 miles a week through May-June, always over hilly terrain. I eased off the beginning of July. I also did one mountainous sportive about the beginning of June, as a sort of trial run.
On the day, I went pretty well until Valloire, struggled like everyone else over Galibier, but revived to do better than most around me on the Alpe d’Huez climb, including still having the strength to sprint past 5-6 others when we were in the last few hundred metres.

I narrowly missed out on silver (too long at the feeding stations!) but I was really chuffed to have done it after the ‘lost’ year due to injury, and apart from feeling momentarily dehydrated at the finish, with no problems.

Having said all that, there were other factors which I’m positive helped me an awful lot:
- the Alps weren’t new to me, I’d been over many passes there, including those in the Marmotte, in 4 previous visits to the Alps. Only Alpe d’Huez was new to me.
- And I’d done a couple of other Alpine sportives before then, including the Dreiländergiro, which has 5 passes along its route, including the Stelvio, no easy pass and pretty long too.

So what AndyP writes about getting some experience in the high mountains beforehand, I really endorse.

celbianchi

If you are going to go and have a recce of the route I can recommend renting a chalet in Allemont. You are right at the foot of the Glandon. i think it is worth a look in advance. i have been in the Alps for the last 4 years in the summer and the climbing is fantastic.

Think about gearing to suit you, not what others recommend - for instance I am your average 3rd cat roadie and this year I had a 39/23 as bottom gear, though on the third climb of the day a 25 might have been nice. I expect if I posted on here sayin a 39/23 is ideal for the high Alps, people would be quick to oppose it, but it was fine for me. Previously i have taken a 25. Some of the friends I go with fit a compact. Make sure you take what's right for you.

Know what your threshold is, there might be a temptation to get excited on the Glandon and follow wheels that take you into the red, try and climb at your own tempo, especiially early, or you will pay for it on the lower slopes of D'Huez.

There is a reasonable pull through the valley from the foot of the Glandon to the foot of the Telegraphe, try and get in a group there for this flat section, it is pretty much the only flat on the course.

I have not ridden the Marmotte but have done a lot of riding in the area and can promise you, you will love it.

Mark Alexander

You are right Andy, I haven’t ridden in the mountains before.

I somehow managed to do 150 miles this week. I haven’t done this since August. This is my first year in which I have done any work over the winter as it’s my first year racing too. I am currently doing low intensity ‘base’ training Interspersed with hills which I’m riding hard up. This is a new experience for me. I’ve done 10 hours this week and most importantly feel great and eager to do more as opposed to being exhausted. It maybe the way forward for me.


Obviously, as there are several thousand feet of altitude variation, I suspect, clothes wise, I’d need everything under the sun for options. Am I right in saying that even in consistent weather the temp would vary greatly?


When I Googled La Marmotte, I noticed that there is several online ‘cycle holiday’ companies geared to this particular trip. Has anyone taken advantage of these? It may be a way to limiting the stress.

I have friends in Buxton, Derbyshire and Cumbria. Do you think that it’d be worth taking a break there for a variation in scenery?

Ric, about this 5kg possibility. I’m 5” 6’ (ok 5” 5’ if I’m honest), 11 stone 6 and according to the gym 22% fat. I’m cutting down on my drinking, my diet isn’t bad. I’m about to start a diary.

Kleber, what do you mean by riders can “brick” themselves? Don’t wory, I’ve never been obsessed about weight and diets.

Steve, do you want to join me (in training at least) sometimes for mutual support?
Anyone’s welcome!!

SteveR_100Milers

Mark Alexander wrote:

You are right Andy, I haven’t ridden in the mountains before.

I somehow managed to do 150 miles this week. I haven’t done this since August. This is my first year in which I have done any work over the winter as it’s my first year racing too. I am currently doing low intensity ‘base’ training Interspersed with hills which I’m riding hard up. This is a new experience for me. I’ve done 10 hours this week and most importantly feel great and eager to do more as opposed to being exhausted. It maybe the way forward for me.


Obviously, as there are several thousand feet of altitude variation, I suspect, clothes wise, I’d need everything under the sun for options. Am I right in saying that even in consistent weather the temp would vary greatly?


When I Googled La Marmotte, I noticed that there is several online ‘cycle holiday’ companies geared to this particular trip. Has anyone taken advantage of these? It may be a way to limiting the stress.

I have friends in Buxton, Derbyshire and Cumbria. Do you think that it’d be worth taking a break there for a variation in scenery?

Ric, about this 5kg possibility. I’m 5” 6’ (ok 5” 5’ if I’m honest), 11 stone 6 and according to the gym 22% fat. I’m cutting down on my drinking, my diet isn’t bad. I’m about to start a diary.

Kleber, what do you mean by riders can “brick” themselves? Don’t wory, I’ve never been obsessed about weight and diets.

Steve, do you want to join me (in training at least) sometimes for mutual support?
Anyone’s welcome!!

Of course. I would recommend joining in the cardiff club run on a Sunday morning if you can. Last weekend 40 riders started out, ok whittkled down to about a dozen by the end, but its at a fast tempo pace and more often than not is hilly. If you cant make them, then let me know what your plans are, as I dont intend to ride from Cardiff every weekend.

ut_och_cykla

Mark Alexander wrote:

You are right Andy, I haven’t ridden in the mountains before.

ISNIP

Obviously, as there are several thousand feet of altitude variation, I suspect, clothes wise, I’d need everything under the sun for options. Am I right in saying that even in consistent weather the temp would vary greatly?

Yes my limited expereince is warm at the bottom of a climb can be effing freezing at the top/descent. Flexible lightweight clothing is a good idea to collect over the coming months. Eg - A gillet is great, craft or smelly hansen undershirt, cap/buff, arm/knee warmers? And my latest love - very thin gloves with windproof backs that pull on over cycling mitts. - I'm a wimpy girly in Sweden

SNIP

Ric, about this 5kg possibility. I’m 5” 6’ (ok 5” 5’ if I’m honest), 11 stone 6 and according to the gym 22% fat. I’m cutting down on my drinking, my diet isn’t bad. I’m about to start a diary.

I'm not Ric but 5kgs is theoretically not a biggy (sez I :oops: ) 45000kcal fat loss = 320kcal less every day over 20 weeks. You probably won't notice this much (but on the other hand its little enough to be difficult)

Kleber, what do you mean by riders can “brick” themselves?

Bricking yourself is a great phrase - sh1tting yourself is what I think Kleber means!

Good luck

Kléber

Yes, as ut_och_cykla says.

Why, well you can even train for the big climbs on virtual reality turbo trainers now. But riders who suddenly find themselves at the top of the Croix de Fer/ Glandon for the first time quickly discover that you can hit 60mph freewheeling, that stopping distances are huge and that a mere dab on the back brake locks up the rear wheel. At the same time, Dutch loons are coming past you even faster and some literally falling into the ravines and bouncing off the crash barriers.

All these revelations mean many a first timer suddenly applies the brown chamois cream.

andyp

Mark Alexander wrote:

Obviously, as there are several thousand feet of altitude variation, I suspect, clothes wise, I’d need everything under the sun for options. Am I right in saying that even in consistent weather the temp would vary greatly?

Yes, you should expect variations in temperature. The 2002 Marmotte started with heavy rain that only cleared much later in the day. I got soaked descending from Alpe d'Huez to the start and never got warm again. I'd gone out with minimal clothing because I was worried that I'd be too hot later when the rain stopped and I'd not be able to carry it which was, with hindsight, an error. Last year I took some old winter kit with the intention of wearing it if it was cold or wet but knowing that if it did warm up I could discard it without problems.

As a bare minimum I'd ride with arm warmers, a gilet and a waterproof top as these will cover most eventualities. But checking the weather forecast in the days leading up to the event is essential.

When I Googled La Marmotte, I noticed that there is several online ‘cycle holiday’ companies geared to this particular trip. Has anyone taken advantage of these? It may be a way to limiting the stress.

It's not particularly stressful if you're organised. You can enter the Marmotte on line from January each year and there are thousands of hotel rooms in Alpe d'Huez so you should be able to find one without too much hassle.

In 2002 I rode it with an organised tour and, frankly, it wasn't well organised at all. Last year I did it myself and it was far less stressful as I was in control of events. I got the train to Valence and hired a car there for the duration of the trip. It was all very straightforward. I think it depends on how confident/experienced you are of organising this type of trip whether you decide to do it yourself or go down the organised route. The latter is more expensive though.

FWIW, it sounds like you're well ahead in thinking about this and planning what you need to do which is a giant step in the right direction. Having an event like this to focus your training through the winter is a great motivator too.

Keep us updated with how you're getting on and if you do have any further questions then fire away.

DaveyL

It doesn't seem to have been mentioned yet, but check out Russell Standring's website http://www.grenoblecycling.com

It is a fantastic resource and I think the forum has a Marmotte section - well worth looking over. Russell is a great guy and extremely helpful. He used to post on the old C+ website - not sure if he posts here now though.

sancho_panza

ut_och_cykla wrote:

Find a body double? or start training soon?

I entered this year - had only done two outdoor training rides before leaving for La Grave in July. A week before the race, took in a few hills around the Alpe and had only been training indoors all of April, May and June. Came in in under 8 hours (it hurt) - best day's riding I've ever had.

Weather was good. Maybe that did it.

oldwelshman

SteveR_100Milers wrote:

Mark Alexander wrote:

You are right Andy, I haven’t ridden in the mountains before.

I somehow managed to do 150 miles this week. I haven’t done this since August. This is my first year in which I have done any work over the winter as it’s my first year racing too. I am currently doing low intensity ‘base’ training Interspersed with hills which I’m riding hard up. This is a new experience for me. I’ve done 10 hours this week and most importantly feel great and eager to do more as opposed to being exhausted. It maybe the way forward for me.


Obviously, as there are several thousand feet of altitude variation, I suspect, clothes wise, I’d need everything under the sun for options. Am I right in saying that even in consistent weather the temp would vary greatly?


When I Googled La Marmotte, I noticed that there is several online ‘cycle holiday’ companies geared to this particular trip. Has anyone taken advantage of these? It may be a way to limiting the stress.

I have friends in Buxton, Derbyshire and Cumbria. Do you think that it’d be worth taking a break there for a variation in scenery?

Ric, about this 5kg possibility. I’m 5” 6’ (ok 5” 5’ if I’m honest), 11 stone 6 and according to the gym 22% fat. I’m cutting down on my drinking, my diet isn’t bad. I’m about to start a diary.

Kleber, what do you mean by riders can “brick” themselves? Don’t wory, I’ve never been obsessed about weight and diets.

Steve, do you want to join me (in training at least) sometimes for mutual support?
Anyone’s welcome!!

Of course. I would recommend joining in the cardiff club run on a Sunday morning if you can. Last weekend 40 riders started out, ok whittkled down to about a dozen by the end, but its at a fast tempo pace and more often than not is hilly. If you cant make them, then let me know what your plans are, as I dont intend to ride from Cardiff every weekend.

I will probably join you on a few weekends Steve.
Thanks for the call sunday when I was struggling up one of the climbs on the Autumn Epic
I am going to do the Marmotte, no recce planned, thats part of the fun, finding out on the day just prepare best as possible beofre hand.
Still I cannot believe it can rain more than it did in Dartmoor or North Wales

Mark Alexander

So, I'm doing this thing but there's something that's just occured to me...
How th hell am I going to get my bike to the start line? lol.
does anyone have any advice on that one? I don't drive..

Mark Alexander

Yey, a littl chuffed today. I googled La marmotte a minute ago and the 2nd hit was this topic!! I'm chuffed, II HAVE A GOOGLE HIT!!
little things please little minds

andyp

Mark Alexander wrote:

So, I'm doing this thing but there's something that's just occured to me...
How th hell am I going to get my bike to the start line? lol.
does anyone have any advice on that one? I don't drive..

Probably best to do an organised trip then. I did the Megeve Mont Blanc with Ed (who does contribute on here a bit I think - he certainly did on the old C+ site) at Bike and Ski Vercors and had an excellent weekend. He met me with his van at Geneva airport and dropped me back there on the Monday morning. I know he does a Marmotte trip so drop him a line.

Carpe Diem

Yeah we used Ed last year to recce the Etape route (finishing atop D'heuz) he provided an excellent service. He's a top level cyclist and know's the route's well, his advice is invaluable

mozwyn69

I did the Marmotte this year and have to say it was probably the best ride I have ever done. Actually what Steve suggests of doing reps on the Bwlch / Rhigos is not a bad idea at all (its what I did for last years Etape). On the Marmotte you need to be able to switch your mind off and just keep climbing for hours, the Telegraph and Galibier have to be expereinced to be beleived. Get some good base fittness in, do a few of the harder UK sportives like the Fred Whitton, fit a compact, cross your fingers for good weather and you will be OK. The feed stations are great and there is no pesky broom wagon chasing for tail.