RLJ - London commuters especially

TheFoolio888

BentMikey wrote:

That does sound to me like you would gain a lot from reading Cyclecraft by John Franklin. I'd like to ask you to look at this video, and comment on how my road positioning compares with where you would ride in the same situation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fw234ZDcsmw

I have read it and find it very useful...but I'll take a peek at the vid when I get a chance. Thanks.

WyS

Mikey Mouse wrote:

Yeah it would be nice if you had regards for others instead of being so selfish.

Im out. i said my bit. and will carry on doing what i do. safely. and with regards to the others around me.

Just hope you lot dont bust a main artery getting so worked up over such a trivial issue.

Xx

Eat My Dust

WyS wrote:

Mikey Mouse wrote:

Yeah it would be nice if you had regards for others instead of being so selfish.

Im out. i said my bit. and will carry on doing what i do. safely. and with regards to the others around me.

Just hope you lot dont bust a main artery getting so worked up over such a trivial issue.

Xx

When did it become a "trivial matter"?

WyS

it always has been.


:twisted:

Clever Pun

WyS wrote:

and tbh these coppers should be catching bike thieves. it is ridiculous at the moment and would do far more good than £30 fines for people trying to get home.

For the nutters that have no regard for others fair enough.. but come on. do something useful.

oh ffs don't wheel out the why aren't you catching real criminals angle... you're not helping yourself or the RLJ set there.

iainment

Clever Pun wrote:

WyS wrote:

and tbh these coppers should be catching bike thieves. it is ridiculous at the moment and would do far more good than £30 fines for people trying to get home.

For the nutters that have no regard for others fair enough.. but come on. do something useful.

oh ffs don't wheel out the why aren't you catching real criminals angle... you're not helping yourself or the RLJ set there.

The problem is that you and the anti rlj brigade don't recognise any position other than it's illegal therefore it's wrong and must never be allowed therefore it must be eliminated and any person who disagrees is to be denigrated as not understanding why cyclists are marginalised by (some) drivers and pedestrians.
I think you guys are obsessed.

:twisted:

Eat My Dust

WyS wrote:

it always has been.


:twisted:

Well that would make you a bit of a fanny then, wouldn't it?

toontra

iainment wrote:

I think you guys are obsessed.

:twisted:

Hah, that coming from someone who's signature is about RLJing!

The great thing about not RLJing is you can relax and enjoy the ride - no having to make judgement calls every junction which could have nasty consequences if you get it wrong.

iainment

toontra wrote:

iainment wrote:

I think you guys are obsessed.

:twisted:

Hah, that coming from someone who's signature is about RLJing!

The great thing about not RLJing is you can relax and enjoy the ride - no having to make judgement calls every junction which could have nasty consequences if you get it wrong.

The sig is a tease.


:twisted:

dondare

iainment wrote:

The problem is that you and the anti rlj brigade don't recognise any position other than it's illegal therefore it's wrong and must never be allowed therefore it must be eliminated and any person who disagrees is to be denigrated as not understanding why cyclists are marginalised by (some) drivers and pedestrians.
I think you guys are obsessed.

:twisted:

You don't recognize any position except self gratification. You have no argument at all.

jbindman

£30 is fair enough, like Philthe fish ill pay up if necessary. if you can't do the time......

anyway, its less than a penny an RLJ ...

toontra

iainment wrote:

The problem is that you and the anti rlj brigade don't recognise any position other than it's illegal therefore it's wrong and must never be allowed

Wrong. The fact it's illegal is only one of the reasons I'm against it, and not the most important. Others are:

• It puts uncertainty into the minds of other road users, which could cause accidents

• It puts uncertainty into the minds of pedestrians, especially the elderly, who don't know what to expect from cyclists - are they going to stop or not? Why the f**k should they have to have that added worry in an already stressful situation?

• It gives people a bat to hit all cyclists with, irrespective of whether they RLJ or not

• I lump it in with other petty antisocial, selfish and inconsiderate behavior (dropping litter and chewing gum, for example) which, added together, make cities a less pleasant place to live

If RLJing was simply illegal but didn't have any of these other consequences then I'd probably give it a go and take my chance at being fined.

iainment

dondare wrote:

iainment wrote:

The problem is that you and the anti rlj brigade don't recognise any position other than it's illegal therefore it's wrong and must never be allowed therefore it must be eliminated and any person who disagrees is to be denigrated as not understanding why cyclists are marginalised by (some) drivers and pedestrians.
I think you guys are obsessed.

:twisted:

You don't recognize any position except self gratification. You have no argument at all.

I do - if it's safe to go and there is no risk to me , pedestrians and other road users I'll RLJ, if not I stop.
Win win as far as I can see.

iainment

toontra wrote:

iainment wrote:

The problem is that you and the anti rlj brigade don't recognise any position other than it's illegal therefore it's wrong and must never be allowed

Wrong. The fact it's illegal is only one of the reasons I'm against it, and not the most important. Others are:

• It puts uncertainty into the minds of other road users, which could cause accidents

• It puts uncertainty into the minds of pedestrians, especially the elderly, who don't know what to expect from cyclists - are they going to stop or not? Why the f**k should they have to have that added worry in an already stressful situation?

• It gives people a bat to hit all cyclists with, irrespective of whether they RLJ or not

• I lump it in with other petty antisocial, selfish and inconsiderate behavior (dropping litter and chewing gum, for example) which, added together, make cities a less pleasant place to live

If RLJing was simply illegal but didn't have any of these other consequences then I'd probably give it a go and take my chance at being fined.

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries so why pick out cyclists.
BTW not connected to RLJing but I am always in a deliberate state of uncertainty about other road users when on the roads or as a pedestrian it would be stupid not to be.

el_presidente

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries ...

That is simply not true. Cars, buses and lorries do not habitually RLJ whereas a significant number of London cyclists do.

toontra

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries so why pick out cyclists.
BTW not connected to RLJing but I am always in a deliberate state of uncertainty about other road users when on the roads or as a pedestrian it would be stupid not to be.

I'd say the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the amount of cars that do so in London by at least 100 to 1 - probably far more. Vehicles have an increasingly annoying habit of sneaking through lights as they have just turned red, but that (whilst irritating and potentially dangerous) is at least fairly predictable.

As for the uncertainly, junctions and pedestrian crossings are already stressful for road users and pedestrians (especially the elderly), and potentially very dangerous. Why add to that stress and danger? For what benefit? To save a couple of minutes, or to add to the excitement of your life?

dondare

A greater number of motor vehicles RLJ, but a higher proportion of cyclists do it.
Motorists are as bad in other ways, although it would be better to say that people are likely to break unpopular laws whatever they're doing. You'll see a huge number of people driving and using mobile phones, for instance, and most motorists will habitually exceed the speed limit without even noticing that they're doing it.

Cyclists get picked on because they're a minority. Since most adults drive they won't condemn all motorists when they see traffic moving at 45 mph in a 30 mph zone, but they will condemn all cyclists when they see a group of POBs RLJing.

This does not give cyclists either an excuse or a reason for RLJing. The bottom line is that other people, mostly in large, heavy, powerful cars which have a great capacity to cause harm, will be more hostile to cyclists if they see a lot of RLJing (and other illegal behaviour) and this makes cycling less pleasant and more dangerous. This discourages people from cycling and results in accidents, injury and death.

I know that some cyclists actually enjoy this situation, since it means that makes cycling more exclusive and thrilling. But most RLJing is done by thoughtless people who simply can't be arsed to stop and know that they'll probably get away with it.

cupofteacp

http://www.no-excuses.org.uk/Pages/Arti ... ticleid=22

I read in another survey that 6 out of 10 motorist admit to jumping lights reguarly in London.

I had a ped stare at me after a car jumped a red light and I stopped, as if it was my fault

Big Red S

toontra wrote:

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries so why pick out cyclists.
BTW not connected to RLJing but I am always in a deliberate state of uncertainty about other road users when on the roads or as a pedestrian it would be stupid not to be.

I'd say the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the amount of cars that do so in London by at least 100 to 1 - probably far more. Vehicles have an increasingly annoying habit of sneaking through lights as they have just turned red, but that (whilst irritating and potentially dangerous) is at least fairly predictable.

As for the uncertainly, junctions and pedestrian crossings are already stressful for road users and pedestrians (especially the elderly), and potentially very dangerous. Why add to that stress and danger? For what benefit? To save a couple of minutes, or to add to the excitement of your life?

So the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the cars by a factor of a hundred, yet it's the cars that are predictable and the bikes that create uncertainty?

dondare

toontra wrote:

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries so why pick out cyclists.
BTW not connected to RLJing but I am always in a deliberate state of uncertainty about other road users when on the roads or as a pedestrian it would be stupid not to be.

I'd say the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the amount of cars that do so in London by at least 100 to 1 - probably far more. Vehicles have an increasingly annoying habit of sneaking through lights as they have just turned red, but that (whilst irritating and potentially dangerous) is at least fairly predictable.

As for the uncertainly, junctions and pedestrian crossings are already stressful for road users and pedestrians (especially the elderly), and potentially very dangerous. Why add to that stress and danger? For what benefit? To save a couple of minutes, or to add to the excitement of your life?

That is RLJing.

Clever Pun

cupofteacp wrote:

http://www.no-excuses.org.uk/Pages/Article.aspx?id=28&articleid=22

I read in another survey that 6 out of 10 motorist admit to jumping lights reguarly in London.

I had a ped stare at me after a car jumped a red light and I stopped, as if it was my fault

they were just making sure you weren't going to

iainment

el_presidente wrote:

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries ...

That is simply not true. Cars, buses and lorries do not habitually RLJ whereas a significant number of London cyclists do.

I beg to differ, I see cars, lorries and buses jumping reds every time I'm out and about.

Clever Pun

dondare wrote:

toontra wrote:

iainment wrote:

You could say all the above about cars, buses and lorries so why pick out cyclists.
BTW not connected to RLJing but I am always in a deliberate state of uncertainty about other road users when on the roads or as a pedestrian it would be stupid not to be.

I'd say the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the amount of cars that do so in London by at least 100 to 1 - probably far more. Vehicles have an increasingly annoying habit of sneaking through lights as they have just turned red, but that (whilst irritating and potentially dangerous) is at least fairly predictable.

As for the uncertainly, junctions and pedestrian crossings are already stressful for road users and pedestrians (especially the elderly), and potentially very dangerous. Why add to that stress and danger? For what benefit? To save a couple of minutes, or to add to the excitement of your life?

That is RLJing.

Are you an amber gambler?

dondare

Only green means go; and only when it's safe to do so.

dondare

On the few occasions that I have taken a taxi somewhere, I have been astounded by the number of reds the driver has jumped. You'd think cabbies didn't have licences to lose.

toontra

Big Red S wrote:

So the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the cars by a factor of a hundred, yet it's the cars that are predictable and the bikes that create uncertainty?

Yes. I'll explain that if you like. Vehicles usually go through red lights just after they have turned red (up to 2 seconds in my experience). That is predictable (although illegal and should be clamped down on).

Cyclists go through red lights at any time during the red phase. That's unpredictable.

To see a car, bus, lorry. etc go through a red other than just after the change is very unusual in my personal experience - a handful of times in recent months. That's how I arrived at my (contentious) figure of 100 to 1.

Clever Pun

dondare wrote:

Only green means go; and only when it's safe to do so.

that's not exactly true but an admirable sentiment nonetheless

Clever Pun

toontra wrote:

Big Red S wrote:

So the number of cyclists who RLJ outnumber the cars by a factor of a hundred, yet it's the cars that are predictable and the bikes that create uncertainty?

Yes. I'll explain that if you like. Vehicles usually go through red lights just after they have turned red (up to 2 seconds in my experience). That is predictable (although illegal and should be clamped down on).

Cyclists go through red lights at any time during the red phase. That's unpredictable.

To see a car, bus, lorry. etc go through a red other than just after the change is very unusual in my personal experience - a handful of times in recent months. That's how I arrived at my (contentious) figure of 100 to 1.

not to the car at the cross section of the junction

you're generalising cyclists RLJ'ing especially given the arguments given in this thread

dondare

Clever Pun wrote:

dondare wrote:

Only green means go; and only when it's safe to do so.

that's not exactly true but an admirable sentiment nonetheless

Which part isn't true?

toontra

Clever Pun wrote:

you're generalising cyclists RLJ'ing especially given the arguments given in this thread

Can you explain what you mean? I don't understand.